Clockwork Cult (now off of rotation, suggestions go in this thread)

[Shaps-cloud]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Players like you generally don't have the attention span to play a mode that's more in depth than being able to tase-and-lase the antagonist and immediately win, so I applaud you on finding a way to enjoy it.

I play SS13 to play a character and interact with other people while trying to stay alive against a myriad of threats the best said character would be able to, not play a crappy recreation of a MOBA that requires me to download a Primo strategy guide off the wiki to tell me what I've been pre-ordained to do for fourty minutes or else I'll die.

The more focus you need to put into playing the gamemode and executing optimal strategies, the less time you have to do the stuff that actually makes the game fun like creative problem solving and social interactions

[Nabski]

We all know Repukan's thing is an ancient WoW copypasta on prot pally right?

[Qbopper]

We all know Repukan's thing is an ancient WoW copypasta on prot pally right?

most people genuinely do not

Players like you generally don't have the attention span to play a mode that's more in depth than being able to tase-and-lase the antagonist and immediately win, so I applaud you on finding a way to enjoy it.

I play SS13 to play a character and interact with other people while trying to stay alive against a myriad of threats the best said character would be able to, not play a crappy recreation of a MOBA that requires me to download a Primo strategy guide off the wiki to tell me what I've been pre-ordained to do for fourty minutes or else I'll die.

The more focus you need to put into playing the gamemode and executing optimal strategies, the less time you have to do the stuff that actually makes the game fun like creative problem solving and social interactions

unless things have changed in the month or two i've been gone the majority of players do not play ss13 this way anymore

[oranges]

Shaps doesn't play so that would make sense

[Shaps-cloud]

I've put in a fair amount of rounds in the last few weeks, and my point was that clockcult is insanely unintuitive compared to all the other gamemodes that you can figure out more or less in game and without pouring over the wiki and GitHub changelog each week. Ignore the roleplay wrapping to my argument that I didn't intend, gamemodes that need an encyclopedia to understand suck

[Oldman Robustin]

I've put in a fair amount of rounds in the last few weeks, and my point was that clockcult is insanely unintuitive compared to all the other gamemodes that you can figure out more or less in game and without pouring over the wiki and GitHub changelog each week. Ignore the roleplay wrapping to my argument that I didn't intend, gamemodes that need an encyclopedia to understand suck

I don't know if you played the previous iteration of Clockcult but that was far, far worse.

Cogs are pretty easy to understand and resource generation is finally approaching some semblance of balance. It still suffers from a lot of bloat and construction remains horribly unintuitive. Tier 1 needs to be purged of all the MLGPRO360 shit like Vanguard and Wraith Specs. Replicant should just be moved to a brass/fabricator and/or appear after a successful conversion. I mean T1 gameplay boils down to "plant cogs or hit someone with kindle", the menu should better reflect the focus of the early game. Also do we really need a stun sigil when we have spear traps? Do we need conversion runes when one (indestructable) rune on Reebe would suffice?

[RandolfTheMeh]

Hate to type the following, since I understand the amount of effort that went into Clock Cult as a whole up until this point, but I personally feel the game mode currently isn't worth it.

1. The static summon time simply drags out rounds that are ultimately decided well-before it. Rarely does the culmination of the round correspond with the summon timer, and I feel this was a mistake.

2. The cultists have an off-station base exacerbates all of our previous problems of an "untouchable space base" that was had with previous iterations of clock cult, as well as blood cult. The notion that the crew has an ability to take preemptive measures against the cult before their summon is laughable, in that the only measures which are preemptive are limited to reactionary. Reactionary measures cannot be taken against cultists who never given an action for which one can react against, leaving the bulk of the crew just idling about until either converted or until the gates open.

3. The fact that converting is so simple means that the last few rounds I've seen have had the entire station converted, despite the efforts of security, as those who get implanted get ashed to revive those who got caught (one of the reasons why reactionary measures are laughable, as upon the ark opening, all the corpses warp to their ark*, where they can just rez them all- granted they don't retrieve them prior to this).

4. Even if the cultists don't convert en masse, and instead just stick to sabotaging, there is a limited response that security can provide. Limited both by travel time and the numbers in security, it ends up making playing sec feel like you're doing Whack-A-Mole, except by the time you get to the area of interest, the entire department's filled with plasma because being able to teleport anywhere sans a few niche locations makes this process easy for a cultist.

5. It leaves the crew with nothing to do up until the ark opens. There is no coordination, because there is paranoia. You have limited people working the few departments that matter, and those limited people may/may not be watched over by sec. I've felt extremely little fulfillment, if any, in the last ten or so clock cults I've played in. Killing a cultist feels pointless, deconverting one feels pointless, and becoming one is even worse, since I know by this point I'm just going to stand around in the back while we wait the excruciatingly long timer to tick down for Ratvar to awaken.

To stick with broad, general concepts- if the admins have to frequently spawn in things to fight the clock cult so the last five minutes aren't just us idling, something is wrong.

tl;dr clock cult makes me sad


*Should clarify that I haven't actually checked the code for this. I just recall from one of the clock cult rounds I played, that the eminence started yelling at us to get corpses rezzed that were all in the ark room, after the recall took place, and so I had assumed this to be the case.

[Lumbermancer]

I appreciate trying to differentiate it from Narsie, but it just devolved into powergaming. Literally every round teleport in steal spare, steal boards, steal whatever, and do whatever. Cult has all the advantages while everyone else has all the disadvantages. Teleporting in and out, meme constructs, instant runes, converting airlocks, god eye from the sky. There's no deconversion. You get implanted who cares get killed. Security has nothing but luck and individual robustness (which gets beaten by sneaky soap). And it drags on for so long, everyone who was relevant already died or got converted, but it drags on, and the summoning drags on.

I'm not saying cult wins every time, what I'm saying is that only one side gets to have fun. It's ultimately a boring, high concept gimmick mode. A pet project.

I'd rather play revs than this. It's both team deathmatch, but in Revolution team deathmatch involves everyone fast, it's quick and impactful. And doesn't overstay its welcome.

[Xhuis]

I know this is a pretty lame response, but I'll take some time to think on it. I'm currently working on roundstart traits (hopefully they get in!), but once that project's concluded - which should be soon assuming maintainers don't let it sit for a long time - I'll see about trying to spend some time improving the mode. I've never been a very good designer, since I mainly construct my content based on what I find fun, and even though it's frustrating at times like this, I find current clockcult fun. When it comes to making balance changes outside of that, I'm mainly going out on a limb, because it takes me a long time to think about things in a neutral light with regards to what's fun, and obvious trolls like D&B don't help matters much when I'm already under a lot of pressure to make the mode enjoyable.

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback, though. I'll spend some time thinking about how I can best patch up the mode to be more enjoyable for everyone, even if I'm not sure how to do that. Constructive suggestions are welcome, but if it's just another brainless removal-beg, suck on the exhaust pipe of a bus, so that way you'd at least be doing something helpful with your life by preventing the emissions from polluting the dying atmosphere.

Here's some ideas I've been tossing around mentally, so feel free to add onto them.

• Making the teleport work on a whitelist instead of a blacklist; you can only warp to public areas
• Hugely reduce the time holy water takes to deconvert a servant
• Deny the Eminence vision to blessed turfs
• Give some sort of way for people to bless water tanks without a chaplain so that they don't have to open slots and hope someone signs up
• Conversion cap?
• Prevent mass recalls from dragging back restrained people
• Some changes to Abscond - some ideas include leaving a portal behind that anyone can walk through, leaving some sort of "trace" of destabilized space that anyone can interact with to yank the servant back through (where do you think you're going?); generally changes to make it more intended as an "escape while you're hidden" tool than a "channel after you slip an officer" tool

In addition to that stuff, I've also been mentally tossing around making them more into a side-antagonist or secondary one instead of a full gamemode, while reducing their ability set, removing their conversion, and rewarding stealthy play and nonlethality. Obviously, this would modify the Ark to not be round-ending, but if I did go that route, I'm not sure how yet.

If all else fails and the mode can't be salvaged, then I'll take it on myself to axe it, but I still think that right now it still has unharnessed potential to make it into a unique mode that people really do enjoy.

[Dr_bee]

Clock cult is still worth salvaging I think. It has problems but the idea of a base building focused game mode is great for a game with so many construction features.

That being said, reducing cultist mobility, making mass conversion less attractive, and making mass murderboning less attractive should be the main focus right now.

Making it impossible to kidnap people to reebe needs to be a thing, as it is too easy to just murder someone and drag their body to reebe so they cant be cloned and do that until the station is depopulated. Making conversion take place on station would give the crew a bit more of a chance to fight back during the pre-fight phase.

Consider alternatives to conversion. Bringing back clockwork posibrains and making borgs the primary method of reinforcements would be a good idea, one of my favorite thing about old clock cult was how dying didnt end your round as there were many ghost roles involved.

Also I think the cult should get a baseline amount of brass for defenses at round start, enough for a basic series of defenses with no fancy shit. This would mitigate some of the cases where the cult isnt able to get enough power and get steamrolled hard.

Consider not focusing so much on the chaplain as the main way to fight the cult's mobility, it is primarily an RP role, and shouldnt be so much of a focus. You can survive blood cult without a chaplain using cargo, you cant do the same with clock cult due to how much blessing is needed to stop the rampant teleportation and the Eminence.

[Lumbermancer]

Hugely reduce the time holy water takes to deconvert a servant.

Deconversion time is not a huge issue. The problem is keeping track of who was fed water, who got deconverted or not, who is ready for implant - if there are any, and then coordinating and communicating it within the chaos of the brig.

Give people who were fed water and got deconverted, or deemed pure, a halo floating over their head visible to everyone. A sort of "soft implant" if you will.

[EagleWiz]

In addition to that stuff, I've also been mentally tossing around making them more into a side-antagonist or secondary one instead of a full gamemode, while reducing their ability set, removing their conversion, and rewarding stealthy play and nonlethality. Obviously, this would modify the Ark to not be round-ending, but if I did go that route, I'm not sure how yet.

You could encourage them to not kill people or flood plasma via the description you get when the role spawns, reduce the number of obnoxious spells and instead give them a weapon that stuns and disables people, and reward them for successfully kidnapping and then releasing people. Have the objective be to spread the influence of ratvar to the minds of a certain number of crew, and instead of conversion have the crew that get kidnapped get odd objectives and possible minor powers.

[Xhuis]

snip

You could encourage them to not kill people or flood plasma via the description you get when the role spawns, reduce the number of obnoxious spells and instead give them a weapon that stuns and disables people, and reward them for successfully kidnapping and then releasing people. Have the objective be to spread the influence of ratvar to the minds of a certain number of crew, and instead of conversion have the crew that get kidnapped get odd objectives and possible minor powers.

I feel like that would somewhat turn them into a rehashed version of abductors, except the abductees would retain some ties to the abductors beyond their fluff objectives and organs. It would also rely upon players not to use their newfound antagonist objective to slaughter everyone, unless the antagonist was policy-wise not given a license to grief, which would result in a lot of debate.

[EagleWiz]

I feel like that would somewhat turn them into a rehashed version of abductors

thats the point

[EagleWiz]

I know you cant remove cult or xhuis will throw a bitchfit, but is there some way to make it happen less often and have a mode like traitor or nuke ops or wizard or literally anything else happen more often? I think the vast majority of either server can agree that more nuke ops and less clock cult would be a great change.

[Xhuis]

I'm right here, you know

[Oldman Robustin]

I know you cant remove cult or xhuis will throw a bitchfit, but is there some way to make it happen less often and have a mode like traitor or nuke ops or wizard or literally anything else happen more often? I think the vast majority of either server can agree that more nuke ops and less clock cult would be a great change.

Do you still play this game?

Nukes already happen 2x as often as clockcult, traitor-type rounds happen 6x+ as often as clockcult.

Round variety is important and honestly I would like to see CC/BC reach 10% at the expense of -4% of traitorchan.

On Sybil its basically 90% traitortype modes, especially if you consider "wizard dies in 5m and mulligans to traitor and/or summons shit and its basically traitor".

[Durkel]

Send help. Cult didn't even have a single wall of defense up before the crew could teleport in. Meta is just use reebe as a safe space and teleport around converting.

[Xhuis]

Code and design can't fix people being tongue-swallowing levels of idiotic.

[PKPenguin321]

Not really idiotic if it's more optimal than the whole base building thing

[Xhuis]

There are two ghost roles whose sole purpose is to basebuild and of the several clockcult rounds I've participated in lately in many of them I hear from the cultists that people were bumbling around and not doing anything productive on their end. At this point I'm beginning to wonder if many of CC's issues stem from the fundamental flaw of it having any degree of complexity and thus making it impossible for people who barely know how to play other than killing people to do anything helpful.

[EagleWiz]

There are two ghost roles whose sole purpose is to basebuild and of the several clockcult rounds I've participated in lately in many of them I hear from the cultists that people were bumbling around and not doing anything productive on their end. At this point I'm beginning to wonder if many of CC's issues stem from the fundamental flaw of it having any degree of complexity and thus making it impossible for people who barely know how to play other than killing people to do anything helpful.

Right, but see killing the people who would otherwise try to break through defenses IS helpful. Do you know how many defenses a single robust crew member with the right items can break through? It's most of them. And the clock cult usually tries to convert early on, and converting the people who will try to break through the defenses is arguably DOUBLE helpful.

The problem isn't that the players are but dumb plebeians too stupid to realize how clock cult is supposed to be played, its that the players are smart enough to look at the conversion game mode/trap-filled-base-building-sim and see that the conversion part is what really matters.
It doesn't matter if the cult has almost no protection if the cult has enough people to openly walk the station and murder everyone who they see who isn't cult, and it doesn't matter if you create the most fiendish cult defenses known to man - if the crew has a couple guys in mechs, a functional fighting force with guns and a stockpile of medical supplies and the cult doesnt have the people to stop that the cult is going to die.

I guess to try to be a little constructive here the issue with clock cult defenses is that defenses are great at stopping the unrobust - put a clockwork wall in front of a newbie and even if they have all the tools they will probably just stare blankly at it until the arc activates. Put in a wall of skewers and watch as a wave of grey shirts, medical doctors and botanists run to their deaths. A player that knows what they are doing though? Cult defenses are at best an annoyance. You're not going to stop someone robust who wants to get from point A to point B with architecture, no matter how much it might be full of traps or auto-turrets, at least not once they have played enough rounds to figure out how they work and how you can neutralize them. The only reliable way to stop a human who understands the game is with other humans, and this is why people think conversion is more important then base building.

[Xhuis]

You know, that does make a lot of sense. Given the nature of the game, I have to wonder if it's easily rectifiable...

[Xhuis]

I've been working on some changes in my spare time, and I won't be PRing them yet, but I do want to hear what people think of them and if they'll make any improvements.

• Adds the anointment oil reagent. The chaplain starts with a flask with 100 units, and religious supplies crates contain another flask. In normal crew, it metabolizes very slowly and gives holy vision (which allows them to see blessed tiles.) In servants and cultists, it metabolizes normally and prevents them from reciting scripture or blood rites. More is made if the chaplain blesses a container with normal oil. The default flask cannot be picked up or dragged by servants or cultists, though syringes etc. still work.
• Anointment oil can be splashed by anyone onto a container with water or oil to convert them into holy water and anointment oil at half efficiecny (i.e. 100 units oil in the container = 50 units anointment oil.)
• You can now only warp into public areas or maintenance.
• Abscond now leaves behind an "abscondence breach" for 10 seconds. Anyone can interact with the breach to yank the person who absconded back to that location and stun them for 4 seconds.
• Servants and cultists with anointment oil in their system are deconverted by holy water 10x faster, taking 6 ticks instead of 60. Anointment oil is thus used to "soften them up" for deconversion.
• Sigils of submission spawn a slab when they convert someone.
• Mass recall no longer pulls unconscious, dying, dead, or restrained servants to Reebe.

Anointment oil serves as a way to make deconversion a more appealing option (plus the mass recall nerf), as well as to lower reliance on the chaplain by giving the crew tools to create holy water without them. They're still invaluable due to their holy weapon and infinitely-healing bible, plus they can still make holy water and anointment oil the most efficiently, but it shifts some of their power to the crew in general so that they're not crippled if a chaplain doesn't sign on that shift.

The warp and Abscond nerfs are to remove the "uncounterable guerilla sabotage" factor of clockcult that's no fun for anyone, and to give them more of a reason to blend in among the crew when they're cogging or converting.

These changes would aim to shift the meta away from blitzkrieg conversion being the most viable tactic, and to make fortifications more appealing to build. The problem is, though, that fortifications right now are very weak against a great deal of things, like tools, mechs, and hulks, and because servants have very little in the way of automated defenses, with only 3 "true" defensive objects (brass skewers, mania motors, and ocular wardens.) I want to buff building defenses to be a viable option (conversion should still be viable too!) but I'm still lost as to how that can be done effectively.

Any ideas or input on these changes is welcome. Like I said, I'm not PRing them for now; they're just a proposal.

[Oldman Robustin]

The whole point of deconversion is that it's less efficient than just caving someone's skull in. By giving chaplains a "deconvert in less than a stun" tool you're just making everyone more dependent on a competent chaplain.

Plus with stats being down it's hard to say but my feeling is that CC really doesn't need another nerf. The power nerf is already forcing them to adjust a lot but with the low % of cult modes I literally haven't seen a round in over a week. If anything you absolutely need to nerf Clockcultists hitting Tier 3 with their starting brass before you add ANOTHER layer of snowflake to the chaplain's inventory.

Also whats with the abscond counter? At this point if I see a clock cultist leaving I LET them then I click their rift and get a free kill? What?

[Xhuis]

On my phone so I can't say much. Abscond thing is to prevent them from just warping out and making chases feel completely unrewarding since they didn't escape, just warped out when they got the chance.

Anointment oil spawns in the chapel but anyone can use it to make more of itself. I want to shift it around to deconversion being the more effective option because with the amount of materials required I don't really see people bother much.

I know about the brass thing, will be addressing it.

Thanks for input otherwise, I need to sleep on it.

[Dr_bee]

While I like the idea of nerfing clock cult teleport, the abscond breach idea might be a step to far. If you are going to nerf abscond, just make it so you cant take people with you anymore. This means conversion needs to take place on station while leaving abscond as a nice emergency escape tool.

Also nerfing where they can teleport alone might be enough of a nerf.

Best to just do it one thing at a time and see how that plays over a dramatic shift in playstyle.

[Oldman Robustin]

On my phone so I can't say much. Abscond thing is to prevent them from just warping out and making chases feel completely unrewarding since they didn't escape, just warped out when they got the chance.

Anointment oil spawns in the chapel but anyone can use it to make more of itself. I want to shift it around to deconversion being the more effective option because with the amount of materials required I don't really see people bother much.

I know about the brass thing, will be addressing it.

Thanks for input otherwise, I need to sleep on it.

I've never had a problem "catching" a cultist im active chasing. They have to do_after for a few seconds so its very easy to bump or stun them while they try to flee. Making abscond take .5-1 second longer is a lot better than "intentionally let them abscond so you can pull them back for a free stun into a free kill".

Just tweak the holy water deconversion downward again. I tried to add more holy water to the religious supplies crate in my cult PR but diff memes with a pack PR that "changed" every line forced me to abandon the change at time.

I see plenty of people "bothering" with deconversion, its still especially effective against the clockcult because you have to port into the brig to stop it, which is just begging to turn one deconversion into two.

[Xhuis]

I've always heard a great deal of people complaining that Abscond lets cultists just teleport out of any situation, and from even more people that they just kill cultists instead of deconverting them. 60 ticks is almost two minutes; even bumping it down to something like 10 ticks is still 20 seconds overall, which is plenty of time for it to be remedied and still slower than killing them outright. It's something I'll have to think about.

[Hathkar]

I think a holy water buff would be worth trying out. Like you said, cutting deconversion time would be helpful, OR make it more obvious that deconversion is happening. When you've got 4+ people in the brig with holy water in them and chat flying by quickly, it's hard to keep up with who got water when, and if they've spouted any cult words at all. So maybe increase the amount of cult-gibberish that people speak when they've got holy water in them.

Also a fan of holy water preventing usage of cult magics.

[factoryman942]

Would the abscond pullback be instant? If so, you should add at least a small timer to it, to allow one cultist to cover another's escape

[Zarniwoop]

How many times do we have to keep redesigning it before you just remove it like most people want?

[EagleWiz]

The more I play this mode the more convinced I become that the crew is pretty much unstoppable if they have most of their people hole up in the brig, have either people or at critical areas to report cult intrusion or a good AI, and only leave the brig in groups to respond to those intrusion attempts.

[Xhuis]

How many times do we have to keep redesigning it before you just remove it like most people want?

How many times do you have to swallow your tongue before you finally die? I know this is providing ammunition to you and other obvious trolls who try to say that I don't listen to any feedback, but don't be absurd. Can you prove that most people want it gone when you can't even prove you're legally old enough to be out of middle school with the way you act?

The more I play this mode the more convinced I become that the crew is pretty much unstoppable if they have most of their people hole up in the brig, have either people or at critical areas to report cult intrusion or a good AI, and only leave the brig in groups to respond to those intrusion attempts.

Therein lying one of my dilemmas. I continue receiving conflicting reports about which side is superior. It seems like there's usually a power shift entirely to either side, with little room for conflict. My current ideas to resolve this is to give one side (like the cult) a static amount of power so as to prevent them from snowballing, but enough to let them put up a fight against the crew.

Right now I've been deliberating doing this by making it more like Dungeon Keeper; the Eminence starts constructions and does large-scale coordination. Either player-controlled cogscarabs or human cultists (unsure which yet) would handle doing that construction, maybe with NPC workers on top so as to prevent stagnation. This'd also make CV have a purpose again; there's a great deal of possibilities with this route. Due to the emphasis being moved again to base building, conversion would either be limited or removed, as would station teleporting based on CV
Hell, I might even make it a side antag if I go that route. I'm unsure how well it'd he received, so input is always appreciated.

[Floiven]

I think one of the main things leading to snowballing of either side, leading to the perception of unfairness/no chance, is conversion, and it inherently problematic due to its self escalating nature. Perhaps for conversion mode antags, a static limit that's applied depending on the population of the crew that can be raised either when needing to replenish lost ranks, or by investing time/materials would help smooth the geometric curve that tends to occur when conversions get rolling, because of the nature of having more converts making converting easier.

It'd be neat to see a chart of data correlating win/loss rates with percentage of crew converted.

[Zarniwoop]

How many times do we have to keep redesigning it before you just remove it like most people want?

How many times do you have to swallow your tongue before you finally die? I know this is providing ammunition to you and other obvious trolls who try to say that I don't listen to any feedback, but don't be absurd. Can you prove that most people want it gone when you can't even prove you're legally old enough to be out of middle school with the way you act?

Jesus, for someone insulting others as children, you sure can't keep your cool (or construct grammatically sound sentences). I give feedback that is shared by a ton of other players - that it should be removed - and you respond by calling me a troll and telling me to die. I saw someone else mention the bitchfit you throw when someone brings this up but I never witnessed it myself. Pretty off-putting coming from staff. Make a legitimate player poll and not one of those stupid troll votes and you'll see the proof.

[Xhuis]

Given your inability to experience human emotion other than rage and depression, I don't see any reason to take anything from you as legitimate at all. Every time I see you post you are completely unintelligent and offer nothing worth any consideration. I call you a troll because you are a troll and I haven't seen a single constructive message from you in my thankfully small window of interaction I've had the displeasure of experiencing you in. I'm happy to take feedback, yes, but only if the person speaking it has an IQ exceeding 50. I'll toss you on my block list and save some brain cells. You have a good day.

snip

It didn't occur to me until recently that conversion is like this. Converting people leads to more people who can convert others, which leads to more conversions... I'm not sure at what point it gets out of control, but it absolutely does. The issue with applying a limit, unfortunately, is the way players treat current antagonists; even if it's stated, a lot of people will gloss over it, and thus cause their whole team to lose if they end up attempting and botching conversion as a result and thus outing them early/costing them some resources/what-have-you. It's one reason I'm considering moving the mode away from conversion, since in a vacuum where numbers are more static it's much easier to balance.

[EagleWiz]

The issue with applying a limit, unfortunately, is the way players treat current antagonists; even if it's stated, a lot of people will gloss over it, and thus cause their whole team to lose if they end up attempting and botching conversion as a result and thus outing them early/costing them some resources/what-have-you.

I'm not sure that's true, clock cult fails to convert on occasion as it is due to implants, which almost always just results in them beating the implanted crew member until dead. Its not much of a resource loss, and it shouldn't out them any more then a successful conversion would unless they forget to remove the victims radio.

The issue I see with a conversion limit is that of metagaming - yes, as it is currently I know Newbie Lagsmuch is a way less valuable convert then Powergame McGee, but I still want to convert Newbie Lagsmuch, because he can at least serve as a distraction/generate some resources. If theres a conversion limit though, converting Newbie Lagsmuch might mean I'm not able to convert Powergame McGee, which means its almost never worth it even try converting Newbie Lagsmuch or Doctor ArrPee - the winning strategy becomes to target experienced players who are good at combat.

[Floiven]

It didn't occur to me until recently that conversion is like this. Converting people leads to more people who can convert others, which leads to more conversions... I'm not sure at what point it gets out of control, but it absolutely does. The issue with applying a limit, unfortunately, is the way players treat current antagonists; even if it's stated, a lot of people will gloss over it, and thus cause their whole team to lose if they end up attempting and botching conversion as a result and thus outing them early/costing them some resources/what-have-you. It's one reason I'm considering moving the mode away from conversion, since in a vacuum where numbers are more static it's much easier to balance.

Perhaps the cap should equal the amount of roundstart cultists, allowing for replenishment of ranks only, explained by there only being so many slabs drawing from the ark's power at one time.
I was going to suggest a holding cell of some kind for potential converts, but only if it had some means for the prisoners working together (meaning it's more dangerous to hold more than one person) to bust out or alert the station.

[Dr_bee]

The issue with applying a limit, unfortunately, is the way players treat current antagonists; even if it's stated, a lot of people will gloss over it, and thus cause their whole team to lose if they end up attempting and botching conversion as a result and thus outing them early/costing them some resources/what-have-you.

I'm not sure that's true, clock cult fails to convert on occasion as it is due to implants, which almost always just results in them beating the implanted crew member until dead. Its not much of a resource loss, and it shouldn't out them any more then a successful conversion would unless they forget to remove the victims radio.

The issue I see with a conversion limit is that of metagaming - yes, as it is currently I know Newbie Lagsmuch is a way less valuable convert then Powergame McGee, but I still want to convert Newbie Lagsmuch, because he can at least serve as a distraction/generate some resources. If theres a conversion limit though, converting Newbie Lagsmuch might mean I'm not able to convert Powergame McGee, which means its almost never worth it even try converting Newbie Lagsmuch or Doctor ArrPee - the winning strategy becomes to target experienced players who are good at combat.

How about having the cult get a random list of players that are "vulnerable" to being converted? You could even tie in having cult enabled to being put on that list. This would solve that problem as well as make it so you can opt out of the whole conversion mechanic. I would often times rather be killed so I can go play a ghost-role than be forced to play a game mode I dislike and know I am horrible at.

There would be some meta issues with that I guess. as it would mean you would know via meta if the cultist was after you to kill you or after you to convert you. But giving them a list of people to kill for bonus power would help stop that meta-gaming somewhat, as the cult kidnapping you could always mean you might be on the "kill" list as opposed to the "convert" list.

Might be a bit to complicated of a solution but it would mean the cult would be doing stuff other than setting the station on fire during the build up period.

[Floiven]

The issue I see with a conversion limit is that of metagaming - yes, as it is currently I know Newbie Lagsmuch is a way less valuable convert then Powergame McGee, but I still want to convert Newbie Lagsmuch, because he can at least serve as a distraction/generate some resources. If theres a conversion limit though, converting Newbie Lagsmuch might mean I'm not able to convert Powergame McGee, which means its almost never worth it even try converting Newbie Lagsmuch or Doctor ArrPee - the winning strategy becomes to target experienced players who are good at combat.

This is a good point, as when I was newer it was kinda like being thrown headfirst into a position where you can potentially screw the round for your allies. Things like constructs are good though for those less confidant, maybe a choice given to converts allowing them to become a role that's easier to contribute with would be good.

Or maybe just have them refuse to work as a convert, and instead be made into a human battery made of brass or something. If you don't want to/feel you're unable to serve, you'll still contribute in some way.

[InsaneHyena]

How many times do you have to swallow your tongue before you finally die?

What did he mean by this?

[PKPenguin321]

why the FUCK does the finale still take 5 minutes if it's a 50 v 3 in the cult's favor

[PKPenguin321]

honestly fuck the finale. it's literally always a complete joke because the cult has the entire crew on their side and 30 walls in the way, or doesn't happen at all because the cult dies out before it starts. at least gangs sometimes had an interesting final struggle.

[Dr_bee]

mass conversion is too strong and honestly fucks the game mode.

Remove conversion entirely, give cultists the ability to respawn at the cost of power. Keep marauders for support during the finale.

Boom, saved the game mode right there.

[Floiven]

give cultists the ability to respawn at the cost of power.

I like this idea, can be done thematically matching as well. (Maybe make them have the appearance of a clockwork golem after so it's harder to conceal yourself if you die)

For the finale thing, maybe make some way to channel energy into the process, speeding it up, at the cost of defenses, but make it something interruptible that requires commitment from the cultists, like a rune or device with a large material and energy cost. Maybe activating it buffs the crew, giving them a last ditch adrenaline rush. Something that when you have an overwhelming advantage (or are feeling real ballsy) you can bet on the shorter ending time, but at great risk.

[EagleWiz]

mass conversion is too strong and honestly fucks the game mode.

Remove conversion entirely, give cultists the ability to respawn at the cost of power. Keep marauders for support during the finale.

Boom, saved the game mode right there.

Thats a cool idea, but it would require some massive buffs.

You could keep some of the conversion aspect (but remove the exponential growth problem, where if one or two cultists die early the cult is boned, but if they convert people quickly the cult doubles in power) by replacing cultist brains with a clockwork posibrain-analogue, and having the conversion rune make unimplanted people go braindead and replacing their brain with a posibrain-analogue that the starting cultists can upload their consciousness into on death (or they could have the eminence/other cultists construct golems for that purpose for a cost in power/materials). This would still require some buffs to the finale defenses.

Possible other things
- have one of the later spells download ghosts into the pesudo-converts, but either lock it at the highest level, or restrict them to stay on reebe?
- re-theme the cult into a group of advanced semi-immortal body jumping aliens/humans with a doomsday device that would mindwipe the entire station if it went off so that we move away from the awful magic steampunk theme and back to something more sci-fi
- have the braindead people stored on 2x1 platforms with one way portals to reebe that are on the sides of the cult area and are separated by the white space (and maybe impervious to weapon fire too) so that the crew can easily see their coworkers who were turned into a row of backup bodies when they assault reebe. For that "oh shit" factor.

[ShadowDimentio]

I warned you about conversion Xhuis my dude

New clockcult is just old clockcult but with a space autism fort, where the clocks do nothing for an hour and then steamroll the crew and win. You gotta remove conversion.

[PKPenguin321]

why the FUCK does the finale still take 5 minutes if it's a 50 v 3 in the cult's favor

please fix this

[Xhuis]

As I've said elsewhere, my inspiration for cc has been dried up for quite a while. I've been pretending I could still hop in it whenever I wanted, but I honestly immediately lose motivation whenever I code for it, and have since just after Eminence came out. Coding gamemodes is boring as shit and completely thankless. Not only that, but when it comes to balance, I've always been weak, and similarly dry on ideas. I still think CC's fun and in a playable spot, which is why I've allowed myself to do other things that I enjoy in the meantime, but were the admins to make it admin-only ala devil with how controversial it is right now, I wouldn't whine about it. I'm okay either way, though I still don't want to see it gone completely from code without a legitimate reason.

In short, yes, I know it's got problems. I shit on people who act like children about them, but as people have rightfully pointed out, there are legitimate issues with the mode, and I've never tried to hide that. And while I'd love to fix them and make it more fun, I'm dry on motivation, ideas, and reasons to work on it. It's either I try to fix it and have people scream at me for not doing it perfectly, or I stay out and have them grumble about it plus be able to do things I enjoy. It's an obvious choice! I don't think I should ever have picked cc back up - I think it's better off now than it was when I revamped it, but the tremendous baggage and large target on your chest that comes with maintaining a gamemode is frankly something I don't think I have the maturity to handle long term. I'm way happier working on small projects and additions, especially as I stray away from coding and ss13 as a whole.

[PKPenguin321]

last time there was a round when the clocks converted the entire crew except for 3 people and waited 10 minutes through the headache inducing finale, i put up a vote asking if anybody would mind if i just hard ended the round next time that kind of thing happened and it was overwhelmingly in favor it

needs to be fixed