/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Durkel wrote:You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round, perhaps tied to each department. My number one concern about this is railroading, and that would go a long ways to alleviating it.

kevinz000 wrote:Luke is just worried he can't get his delicious valids feel as good when they aren't players don't worry.

Well meme'd, but it is somewhat true. Fighting players is a challenge, fighting mobs is a chore.

NikNakFlak wrote:As I told luke, I don't agree with this but they already look like they are actually doing it. GG, that's it.

I realize too that this is happening whether it's a good idea or not. At this point, I think the most productive thing I can do is try to make sure that people have realistic ideas and expectations.

What if it was a ship that has landed on the surface instead of a base? Kind of like Metroid: Zero Mission's final area. I feel that might meet the space lovers in the middle without actually changing much. Baystation had several ship maps and they've still been considered a Space Station codebase. Usually ships are hard to do with just one level, but with multi-z level maps it should be much easier. You could still have gates, fences and other structures built around the ship too.

This would also open up new possible goals for the crew. Just to list a few: Repair/powering of a warp drive to get off the planet and win a round, or finding/processing/researching fuel for the drive, hunting for materials to replace broken components in said drive, repairing structural damage to the ship so it can actually leave, finding new alien parts that replace the standard parts of the ship, having an asteroid belt around the planet and requiring a shield system in harder difficulties and so on. You could even have the game randomly pick several of these goals and assign a different difficulty to each task to make rounds more varied but still goal based.

Tokiko2 wrote:What if it was a ship that has landed on the surface instead of a base? Kind of like Metroid: Zero Mission's final area. I feel that might meet the space lovers in the middle without actually changing much. Baystation had several ship maps and they've still been considered a Space Station codebase. Usually ships are hard to do with just one level, but with multi-z level maps it should be much easier. You could still have gates, fences and other structures built around the ship too.

This would also open up new possible goals for the crew. Just to list a few: Repair/powering of a warp drive to get off the planet and win a round, or finding/processing/researching fuel for the drive, hunting for materials to replace broken components in said drive, repairing structural damage to the ship so it can actually leave, finding new alien parts that replace the standard parts of the ship, having an asteroid belt around the planet and requiring a shield system in harder difficulties and so on. You could even have the game randomly pick several of these goals and assign a different difficulty to each task to make rounds more varied but still goal based.

Randomly generate names of parts on the ship, the ones that need replacement, and the replacements themselves

MisterPerson wrote:The way git works, every single commit is a backup.

Forgive my ignorance King Corgi.

Luke Cox wrote: This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round

The OP mentioned multiple ways of ending the round and I reiterated that several times in the thread. Thanks for confirming you've not been reading my replies to you at least, saves me the trouble of having to write more of them.

TribeOfBeavers wrote:how will admin events be run?

Hopefully with a bit more subtley than "Centcomm Announces: WE MADE IAN INTO A GIANT PEPE RUN"

In all seriousness I'm not sure yet, one of the many things I'll have to figure out.

captain sawrge wrote:How long do you envision having rounds go on for?

I think aiming for 40-60 minutes would be a good starting point. Maybe longer when people are used to the new setting and there are more goals that people will want to stay and accomplish in it.

The Emergency Response Team can remain as is, you could argue they were dispatched to find and assist the lost space station crew. You would need to balance the fact that they arrive in a ship, perhaps make it that they have to refuel the ship or install some kind of escape shield to let the ship safely leave the station.

For the Deathsquad you have two choices.

1. Deathsquad remain as is, bit iffy lore wise to justify why they would expend the effort to destroy a station that's already doomed but its the path of least resistance code wise.
2. Change the Deathsquad to be affiliated with the United Earth Government, fluff it up that the UEG, for some reason, want to ensure the station and crew are killed in action on the planet. Maybe they want to use the death of the crew as political capital to take over mining operations for that sweet plasma.

Kor wrote:

Luke Cox wrote: This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round

The OP mentioned multiple ways of ending the round and I reiterated that several times in the thread. Thanks for confirming you've not been reading my replies to you at least, saves me the trouble of having to write more of them.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but all I got from the OP is this that engineering needs to power the gateway to escape. What am I missing? To clarify, I'm talking about ending the round in a crew victory. I don't want the gateway and the corruption to monopolize the round. I'm still firmly of the opinion that antags should be the main source of conflict, with the monsters being an environmental hazard.

I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas

Wyzack wrote:I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas

>Travelling jungle cutting down tall grass

>WRR WRRR WRRR

>Sky turns red

>Oh fuck

>Turn into pile of ash

No worries kor, throw all the mapping onto me and it shall be done!

Okand37 wrote:No worries kor, throw all the mapping onto me and it shall be done!

i'll FIGHT you

Bombadil wrote:

Wyzack wrote:I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas

>Travelling jungle cutting down tall grass

>WRR WRRR WRRR

>Sky turns red

>Oh fuck

>Turn into pile of ash

>not just sitting in your makeshift hut with your buds watching the storm rage around you

>not watching a lighting bolt strike some dumb ass lizard who didn't find cover.

>not getting swept away by the flooding river and drowning.

Do you even jungle bro? Rains and monsoons or bust.

>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when

Luke Cox wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Luke Cox wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when

An engine that runs on lightning?

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, nobody would like it.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25154

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25150

Goof is already making good progress.

More in depth design document should be up by Friday.

I feel as though the source of the "corruption" should be a temple Aztec-like structure that's crawling with monsters and player-controlled cultists, with the dead center being a very out of place alien cloning pod facility that's spawning all the monsters that the temple proper was built around.

Attacking it triggers the DEFENSE MATRIX that locks down the room (no teleporting in or out, no leaving until everyone inside is dead and fed to the pods), spawns secborgs a defensedroid boss to fuck everyone up, assisted by swarmers. Beating the defensedroid gives players control over the pods (mob aggro, intensity, or activity at all are controlled by it), and more excitingly spits out special parts that can completely fix the beacon back on the station to escape, along with some other stuff for R&D and such.

Just like datum antags I like this as a mode/map but people always overreach and decide IM GOING TO REVOLUTIONIZE EVERYTHING FOREVER!!!

Just make it a mode, seriously. I'm trying to save you from yourself here Kor. Balancing shit around every antag type is already almost design suicide, but even if you pull that off its simply a matter of taste for a lot of people.

Excuses like "Lavaland is popular!" doesn't justify turning the entire game on its head. Lavaland is popular but it also works because its just one job so people who crave loot and smashing NPC's over and over can get their fix, making the entire station play lavaland is a whole nother story. If you think calling the shuttle at 20 minutes is bad you're going to see a whole new level when the station reaches a critical mass of fuck and you can't even just try to survive anymore, you're dead no matter what so just tab out and wait for the nuke because you can't even get the gratification of surviving the mess.

But yea, I hope you listen to all the comments suggesting that this is a unique mode or unique map that we play SOMETIMES. I just don't understand the urge to flip the table over when we have a game that's been growing in popularity despite its outdated engine/graphics/everything - where are you getting this idea that SS13 has some deep seated flaw that needs to be excised by turning it into a PVE tower defense game?

I haven't heard a convincing reason so far why this shouldn't be a map/mode thing. This idea already has a lot of support and I would even be willing to help based on the understanding that the dirt I'm excavating for this thing isn't going to end up being piled over regular gameplay. I don't see anyone saying "well I'd like to help but I won't do anything unless it completely replaces everything else we play on right now" - and even if someone did say that I wouldn't trust anyone with that kind of selfish mindset... people just want to contribute know that this will be seen through and not abandoned, and the odds of success go WAY up when it doesn't happen every single round.

Anyway before I turn into a broken record: This sounds fun, I would enjoy this as something that happens in 10-25% of my rounds, but you're making a lot of sweeping assumptions in supporting the notion that this needs to be a fulltime 100% thing. I don't see why it can't be a map and let player voting help dictate how much its going to dominate the rotation. That was we can vote the hell out of it while its new/fresh and ease off when it gets repetitive.

I hope for all these coders' sake that this ends well, 'cause if the house of cards collapses and months of work gets reverted people are going to burn out HARD.

Except for engineering having a job and sec being catch-all sentinels there isn't much in this thread about inter-department cooperation.

we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.

Would be nice to have datum antags for that.

Would love to help, but I don't know how/ am useless

Kudzu station. Let cargo order goats

Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.

Maybe in the future, but doing this will basically require datum antags to be feasible. So I don't really consider this "get off the ground" material.

MisterPerson wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.

Maybe in the future, but doing this will basically require datum antags to be feasible. So I don't really consider this "get off the ground" material.

I disagree, as I've stated above, the system (while still in "get off the ground" mode) would use traditional gamemode datums, would it be better with datum antags? of course, so would the rest of the game, nothing is changing there.

THE THING ICE WORLD HOLY SHIT.

Remember Simia Orichalcae? We wouldn't be limited to changelings.

Armhulen wrote:THE THING ICE WORLD HOLY SHIT.

Why d'you think I got a PR up that allows hair to look nicer in winterhoods?
Cmon people, everything has a plan and a purpose!

Man so much debate. Not that it's relevant but I have played ss13 since 2011 with long periods of inactivity and that's because it does get repetitive after a long while. I came back recently and there are a lot of new features that make me come back.

I think the essence of the game is having a crew operate a station, be it on space or somewhere else and enjoy the dynamics that arise from that. Take a look at colonial marines, it's totally different from "traditional" space station and yet it is one of the most popular servers.

I imagine the dynamics that would arise and I'm all aboard this idea. Also, I can help with the sprites if you need it.

Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.

I wouldn't mind this actually. Include one vote for the scenario, and another for the map. Or just remove the map vote and make the map random if we don't want to overcomplicate things. Everybody wins.

The scenario thing is again, just splitting development focus.
If it happens, I'd much rather see it after this has been given ample time to be fleshed out and reach a satisfactory stage of development

It'll definitely take a lot of development time and resources (one reason I'm still very wary of this), but it's the only way I see this working in the long run. It's the most reasonable compromise too. Sometimes people can have their classic 2d spessmen, sometimes we can have planetary survival. Doing this will take longer, but it has the highest chance of success.

Acceptance stage.

kevinz000 wrote:Acceptance stage.

I see a compromise that people from both sides seem open to. We put classic 2D spessmen and planetary survival on rotation, and neither get stale since both show up periodically.

Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.

Scott wrote:Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.

as I said above, we don't need antag datums for this.

The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.

MisterPerson wrote:The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.

False, if you implement a simple non-extensible system then you are simply adding on more work for the future (the removal of the simple system)
It's important that the first pass gets a correct, solid foundation.

MisterPerson wrote:The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.

But if you replace the core game permanently, you're going to lose a significant chunk of the playerbase. If you want it to work, you're going to have to do it the hard way.

The thing is, with the Scenario idea, it DOES need a proof of concept. Kor's idea, I think, is the best place to start this proof of concept.


Also, I want it partially to spite Luke because fuck him.

ThanatosRa wrote:The thing is, with the Scenario idea, it DOES need a proof of concept. Kor's idea, I think, is the best place to start this proof of concept.


Also, I want it partially to spite Luke because fuck him.

By all means make the proof of concept, just do so with the understanding that it's going to play out similarly regardless of antags and that people aren't going to want to play it every round.

Also fuck you too

play out similarly regardless of antags

I feel like you really need to explain in detail how you think an average round of this is going to go. You've created some imaginary game in your head that nobody else in this thread seems to see to the point that you unironically called it Left 4 Dead

Do you think rev/nuke/wizard/traitor play the same on our current map? Why would they play the same on this one?

Corruption will slowly spread to the station, and there is the constant threat of mob waves attacking the station. Is that correct?

Remie Richards wrote:

Scott wrote:Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.

as I said above, we don't need antag datums for this.

Isn't antag datums just boilerplate for game modes? I'd rather have that than having to copypaste or rewrite a gamemode every time.

You wouldn't need to rewrite gamemodes. Just make it so you can stop certain gamemodes from working on certain maps (In the map's json file maybe?) and make a gamemode just for planetstation.

No need for huge rewrites or antag datums.

Scott wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:

Scott wrote:Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.

as I said above, we don't need antag datums for this.

Isn't antag datums just boilerplate for game modes? I'd rather have that than having to copypaste or rewrite a gamemode every time.

Are you even sure of what you're saying here? Boilerplate is bad.

There's no real point arguing over things until kor drops a more detailed design document. Until then we're dealing with a mind boggling amount of possibilities on how to handle our current systems.

Like take a AI for instance, Having a AI drop down in a crash is silly and would be extremely limited and there's a lot of ways to handle it such as :

1. Have no AI job at all.
2. AI is a ghost role that comes on line when power systems are restored.
3. AI is initially the aliens defense system and active at start to slow down humans but can be converted or killed shortly in the round.

Until we get a 100% "okay, This is what's going to happen and we can change or improve it somewhat" there's no reason to argue.

Yes there is, and to think otherwise is dumb.
We don't need a fully fleshed out design document to ensure all the systems are prepped and ready, it'd be foolish to wait for that point.

Durkel wrote:There's no real point arguing over things until kor drops a more detailed design document. Until then we're dealing with a mind boggling amount of possibilities on how to handle our current systems.

Remie Richards wrote:Yes there is, and to think otherwise is dumb.
We don't need a fully fleshed out design document to ensure all the systems are prepped and ready, it'd be foolish to wait for that point.

You're both correct

There's no point in trying to fight specific details when we don't have any yet, but you can comment on the general design/etc.

Insisting on some specific vision you're imagining planetstation to be like and starting arguments over it is dumb - reading the thread and having discussions on what has been proposed is valid

This is obviously my opinion, but really, there's little point in arguing over specifics when the specifics don't exist