/tg/Station 13

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also giving anesthetics a surgery bonus would be nice, it's literally useless now.

CPTANT wrote:also giving anesthetics a surgery bonus would be nice, it's literally useless now.

Should just be used for certain surgeries

Cmon you're telling me getting your brain removed/organ removed with 0 sedatives. No alcohol, space-drugs, nothing. Is not going to leave some lasting mental trauma?

These spessmen are strong as hell

After https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46512 I will be replacing failure with longer time to perform surgeries.

?

I just want to say that even though I focused on the negatives for the sake of feedback I have been enjoying new medical quite a lot

Cobby wrote:After https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46512 I will be replacing failure with longer time to perform surgeries.

This is the single best change you could ever make for medical. Actually being able to do field surgery reliably, even if it takes forever, will be fucking amazing.

any chance for a portable surgical computer?

not atm since TW will be quite strong even at base.

Cobby wrote:After https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46512 I will be replacing failure with longer time to perform surgeries.

This is the best surgery change you could possibly ever make. The Tend Wounds change should actually make it useful for prepping bodies for revival and in combination with the failure chance removal it's well worth using on a stasis bed to prep someone for defib.

Great work.

Cobby wrote:After https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46512 I will be replacing failure with longer time to perform surgeries.

Between this and my newly-created mixes for brute and burn I am now assured in the coderbus' ability to improve the game just as much as they fuck it up. Good work.

Alright, after a fair amount of time adjusting and playing with the new systems, let's post some more detailed feedback besides "remove bad change".

First, I agree with the sentiment of trying to drive away toxic powergamers from chemistry. Making 20 of each patch then fucking off to make grenades, meth, and floorpills was not good for anyone. However, I fail to see how this new chem system achieves that in the slightest. It's only made it worse, as chemists feel that the new chems are completely pointless, and now don't bother making any whatsoever. Chemistry may as well be called the meth lab now, since the only things that ever come out of chem are meth, krokodil, crank/bath salts, etc. They feel like they have no reason to make "useful" chems anymore because nobody thinks the new chems are useful. At best they'll make anti-rad and pills for disease cures.

Second, toxin damage is amazingly difficult to deal with now. Sure, you could make a reasonable argument that charcoal was too strong, but now getting 50+ toxins in your body feels like a death sentence, only solvable by regen jelly or le epic K&C. We do currently still have cryo to deal with cases like this, but I can't help but wonder how much longer it'll exist, given the assumed goal of removing all of the fix-all solutions in the (near or far)future, like killing cloning. Bonus mention here goes to radiation, which is still nearly impossible for medbay to deal with effectively, even when we still had trekchems.

Third, there's been a growing sentiment that there is no chem based method of dealing with light wounds anymore. It seems absolutely silly to me that you should have to go into medbay for surgery to deal with 10 brute and burn, when a patch should deal with the problem with no noticable downsides. I've noticed ideas being thrown around that the t1 chems should be remade to have no downsides but have a cap on the wound level they can affect, then remaking the t2 chems into what the t1s currently are. I think this would be the ideal solution. Give people ways to patch their boo-boos, and have a doctor tend their wounds for more major injuries.

Fourth:

Cobby wrote:After https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46512 I will be replacing failure with longer time to perform surgeries.

Bless you. This will probably solve all the unwieldy issues that TW currently has. I would recommend that if possible, only make this apply to TW surgery, as failure chances for ghetto surgery and brain surgery should still exist. I'd also recommend giving the same buff that stasis beds received for surgery success rate to the roller beds. Currently I only use roller beds to do emergency transportation to medbay(and I feel like I'm the only one that even uses them) which might be their intended purpose, but imagine if we could do effective field treatment using the rollerbeds? What if an EMT could effectively treat someone without them ever having to step foot into medbay? I personally think this idea has legs, and I'd love to see what happens as a result of it.

deedubya wrote:Bonus mention here goes to radiation, which is still nearly impossible for medbay to deal with effectively, even when we still had trekchems.

You know what's cute? They just merged a change that makes all uranium items be as radioactive as uranium walls/doors, even uranium ore and sheets. Now not only will plasmeme engineers be a fast neutron source, but carrying a full load of uranium sheets back to your workstation might be a death sentence because medbay is totally unprepared to handle it. It's been tested ingame and having over 6 units of uranium is a serious hazard.

Having uranium sheets in the hallways is now dangerous enough that cyborgs are better off stealing all the uranium and spacing it before anyone can take it out of the ORM.

Floyd is also very keen to keep in radiation from uranium and I don't understand his fixation on it. Hell, he barely understood how radiation functionally worked in-game so I don't think he should be putting in shit like this in the first place.

different thread please

oranges wrote:different thread please

It's relevant to cobbychem when the chems to address radiation are sorely lacking but radiation sources keep increasing.

I've been basically replacing Reed Glover on SYbil as the chemist and I have to say, I straight up don't bother with the C2 chems, bar sritiver as a precursor for niche medications like oculine/antihol/inacusiate/etc. I've been using Oxandrolane, Salicylic Acid and Penetic Acid as the burn/brute/tox treatments of choice and making use of the Record feature to remove the tediousness in making them. So that's a positive I think?

I feel mediborgs are the ones hit the absolute hardest by this change and I'm 95% sure their pain would be alleviated if they could inject their hypospray into their beaker so they could actually dilute the effects, though using a syringe would be suffering. Come to think of it, it would be really nice if you could empty out autoinjectors/hypos into other containers like beakers, I was very disappointed as my stint as a ghetto chemist to learn I couldn't dump out discarded epi pens into beakers to make drugs.

This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

Anonmare wrote:This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

Back when we had trekchem there was a distinct difference between in-blood and on-skin applications of drugs, where some had to be applied on skin with a medical sprayer to avoid ODing people. It's almost like the chem changes weren't very well thought out.

Anonmare wrote:This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

No, I think that's pretty relevant in a chem/medbay rework topic. It's a pretty important and overlooked point too. Heck, I'd even go so far as to argue that trekchems wouldn't even have necessitated a removal if it wasn't for the existence of sleepers and patches. Bicard/sulf patches just instantly healed 40% of your wounds immediately, and everyone can agree that was retarded. I have noticed a trend in cobbchems though, in trying to encourage and occasionally force different methods of application. That being said, patches of current cobbchems are extremely dangerous to use due to the harmful side-effects, and I believe that's also been discouraging their use.

deedubya wrote:

Anonmare wrote:This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

No, I think that's pretty relevant in a chem/medbay rework topic. It's a pretty important and overlooked point too. Heck, I'd even go so far as to argue that trekchems wouldn't even have necessitated a removal if it wasn't for the existence of sleepers and patches. Bicard/sulf patches just instantly healed 40% of your wounds immediately, and everyone can agree that was retarded. I have noticed a trend in cobbchems though, in trying to encourage and occasionally force different methods of application. That being said, patches of current cobbchems are extremely dangerous to use due to the harmful side-effects, and I believe that's also been discouraging their use.

I was a heavy opponent of this system until just recently, and I can say that it's not too extremely dangerous to use anymore if at all. I don't see that "You feel a sharp pain your abdomen" usually ever anymore (if at all). At their current state, they are basically trek chems for all intents and purposes, just slightly less effective. Does this make it a good system now? No, it's still as bad an implementation as it was in all the iterations so far, but it's not as bad as the version where healing was shite and it did insane organ damage.

If you're going to try and shift medbay towards more surgery focused approaches, you need a system like Baymed (unironically) as it balances the various departments in Bay to have more of an incentive to do surgery than slap a chem on and begone.

Anonmare wrote: I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

I tried to do this with trophazole, rhigoxane and thializid, but none of Cobby's new chems have the this property. Perhaps this is because Cobby doesn't think giving people medicine is fun and wants people to use surgery.

The biggest problem with Cobbychem is that it tries to shift focus to surgery(although this has been undermined by powercreeping the new chems) without making surgery fun, interesting or complex.

Surgery can be in theory be really fun and interesting if mechanics such hygiene, anaesthesia and complications are introduced, as seen on other codebases, but chems are just more interesting right now, even if they themselves are not as interesting as they could be if thoughtfully designed.

Well the goal of cobbymed is to make effective healing require someone else treat you instead of being able to self treat. Trophazole and Rhigoxane still suffer from this issue. They are fun to use however.

Trophazole's baseline brute healing should probably be baked in fully to the peptides, so it actually requires eating. This will make it a good alternative to surgery for brute, as it still requires the doctor prescribe a treatment, and a chef to fulfill it.

Rhigoxane on the other hand is a problem. While the administration via spray is neat it is still a pill chem. If it could only be administered by spray and had to be carefully administered it might follow the cobbymed theme.

Is there a way to make it work like Trophazole and healing viruses in that it needs to be activated by an action? I cant think of a theme that fits burn damage.

I would much rather the tier 2 chems be removed. You can tend wounds through clothing now, they arent really needed vs the more complicated and interesting chems.

Dr_bee wrote:Well the goal of cobbymed is to make effective healing require someone else treat you instead of being able to self treat. Trophazole and Rhigoxane still suffer from this issue. They are fun to use however.

Trophazole's baseline brute healing should probably be baked in fully to the peptides, so it actually requires eating. This will make it a good alternative to surgery for brute, as it still requires the doctor prescribe a treatment, and a chef to fulfill it.

Rhigoxane on the other hand is a problem. While the administration via spray is neat it is still a pill chem. If it could only be administered by spray and had to be carefully administered it might follow the cobbymed theme.

Is there a way to make it work like Trophazole and healing viruses in that it needs to be activated by an action? I cant think of a theme that fits burn damage.

I would much rather the tier 2 chems be removed. You can tend wounds through clothing now, they arent really needed vs the more complicated and interesting chems.

How about healing burn while you have water in your system?

So I've been taking more time playing medbay, and one thing I've noticed that complicates procedures: the person you're supposed to be healing. I've cooled down a bunch on cobbychem since it's initial introduction (even though I still find many faults within its design), but I've noticed that pretty much no one else who plays has. If a dude walks in half-dead and I move in for surgery, my issues stop being "chemistry hates having anything to do with cobbychem" and moves to "no one wants surgery". The dude will legit start throwing a fit about how he doesn't need surgery and only wants the limited amount of ointment on hand or some other shit. Medbay, when it isn't under my direct control as CMO, basically turns into "the place you go to get hard drugs" because no one wants to deal with cobbychem, over a month later. The medbay meta (medbayta) has shifted in one direction and immediately stagnated. Can anyone else confirm my concerns, or am I just acting full-on taraiph again?

Taraiph wrote: Snip

Nah, I think those are legitimate concerns. People logically want ot spend as little time as possible in medbay, and
surgery is SLOW. I am more surprised the medbay emta hasn't moved to asking cargo for medkits, becaus eit's rpobably faster
until they remove ointment/bruise packs (Oh yeah, do not doubt those are going away).

it's only logical. until now people have been used to self-medication and quick medicine. it's like loweirng salaries: noone
wants to lose what they once had. And now they have moved form medbay taking 2 minutes to be done with to taking 10 minutes
unless Chemist has ben doing his job (Which is somewhat unlikely), and people are understandably angry. of course, I understand
more changes are coming, so we'll see.

So far surgery is only preferable only on patients with a lot of damage and has the added benefit of not wasting supplies if you're running low, light wounds are easily handled with chems without having to worry about the side effects of heavy dosage, which is not a bad place for it to be

But we already have PRs with people trying to add healing chems that are basically old chems with slight annoyances like slowdown, which when you compare it to surgery's "lie down and do absolutely nothing while someone else takes the time to heal you" will make surgery never be an optimal alternative

Taraiph wrote:So I've been taking more time playing medbay, and one thing I've noticed that complicates procedures: the person you're supposed to be healing. I've cooled down a bunch on cobbychem since it's initial introduction (even though I still find many faults within its design), but I've noticed that pretty much no one else who plays has. If a dude walks in half-dead and I move in for surgery, my issues stop being "chemistry hates having anything to do with cobbychem" and moves to "no one wants surgery". The dude will legit start throwing a fit about how he doesn't need surgery and only wants the limited amount of ointment on hand or some other shit. Medbay, when it isn't under my direct control as CMO, basically turns into "the place you go to get hard drugs" because no one wants to deal with cobbychem, over a month later. The medbay meta (medbayta) has shifted in one direction and immediately stagnated. Can anyone else confirm my concerns, or am I just acting full-on taraiph again?

People acting like entitled dickbags when it comes to the bruise packs/ointments isn't anything new, and just something you'll have to force your hand on. Remember, they came in missing an arm and a leg, if they want to be treated they're at your mercy. If they don't like that, toss the fucker out. If he comes back in and refuses to cooperate, he's now an organ donor.

Buise packs and ointment need to fucking go if anything is going to change.

Rename the chems back to their old names because the new names suck.

Don't fucking remove first aid, this is the only thing that I use as MD for brute/burn and it fucking effective unlike foggernight and libtardial or ayyuri

Timonk wrote:Don't fucking remove first aid, this is the only thing that I use as MD for brute/burn and it fucking effective unlike foggernight and libtardial or ayyuri

learn to play your role

oranges wrote:

Timonk wrote:Don't fucking remove first aid, this is the only thing that I use as MD for brute/burn and it fucking effective unlike foggernight and libtardial or ayyuri

learn to play your role

why bother when new chems are being added every other day, while others are changed

no one lets me to wound tending surgery, they screech and piss at me until i chuck em in cryo for a few minutes

all i do now is chuck people in the toobs when i used to at least be able to slap a few dudes with some patches to get them to fuck off and stop bleedin on my floor

Super Aggro Crag wrote:no one lets me to wound tending surgery, they screech and piss at me until i chuck em in cryo for a few minutes

all i do now is chuck people in the toobs when i used to at least be able to slap a few dudes with some patches to get them to fuck off and stop bleedin on my floor

wesoda25 wrote:why bother when new chems are being added every other day, while others are changed

Everyone who likes playing doctor is waiting for the other shoe to drop. The role has changed a lot and nobody is gonna re-learn it until they're sure they won't have to learn it again in a few weeks. This goes double for optimal chem mixes, since the side effects started out so dangerous that people were afraid to experiment.

After the buff to cobbychems, people need to chill out because the main brute healing chemical is stronger than bicardine ever was. You only need 7 units to heal someone from critical condition to full health if it was only from brute damage and it causes only 10.2 liver damage which is basically nothing. Aiuri's downside can just be mitigated with oculine.

Toxin healing is kinda awful to do though.

Critawakets wrote:After the buff to cobbychems, people need to chill out because the main brute healing chemical is stronger than bicardine ever was. You only need 7 units to heal someone from critical condition to full health if it was only from brute damage and it causes only 10.2 liver damage which is basically nothing. Aiuri's downside can just be mitigated with oculine.

Toxin healing is kinda awful to do though.

Toxin healing isnt bad if you use Thalizid/Syriniver in 5 dose increments. 5 units is enough to heal like 60 toxin damage. But yeah, Multiver is dogshit. I miss old charcoal.

Critawakets wrote:After the buff to cobbychems, people need to chill out because the main brute healing chemical is stronger than bicardine ever was. You only need 7 units to heal someone from critical condition to full health if it was only from brute damage and it causes only 10.2 liver damage which is basically nothing. Aiuri's downside can just be mitigated with oculine.

Toxin healing is kinda awful to do though.

This is the bit I don't get. Clearly, the intent was to ween people off of chems for dealing with burn/brute. I appreciate the new burn/brute meds being more usable now, though. But now it feels like TW isn't really a viable option until surgery's been upgraded, or someone's so far into crit that it'd honestly be faster to toolbox them and chuck them in the cloner. Plus it didn't deal with the fact that toxin damage is the hardest it's ever been to heal. If chems should be good at anything, it should be at dealing with toxin damage and diseases. Right now they're rubbish at dealing with toxins.

deedubya wrote:Plus it didn't deal with the fact that toxin damage is the hardest it's ever been to heal. [...] Right now they're rubbish at dealing with toxins.

Not true. Pent acid is unchanged and thializid/syriniver is really strong.

owanges wrote:
learnsies to pway your rolesies >///>

Okay I did that once but then bicardine got removed and now I don't know what that random chem in medical storage does to the patients eyes and whatever is getting damaged

Every time I'm trying to fully heal someone coder say "haha get some other damage type" and it fucking triggers my MD OCD because I can't fully heal someone but I want them to be spessmen again oh God oh fuck


We need a chem that slowly heals organ damage round start with no repercussions

Then learn to play again

I will say, tend wounds has been pretty amazing for recovering people from massive brute damage while cloning was down or you didn't wanna subject them to clone hell. It won't work on husks (necessarily), but resleeving exists for a reason I suppose.

People are still a bit unsettled by resleeving but it is a hell of a way to get someone back into the round.

Timonk wrote:We need a chem that slowly heals organ damage round start with no repercussions

Thanks for the suggestion.

From this suggestion, I have decided to retroactively implement it into the game via meme magic. Organs now self heal over time slowly, and will do this as of in the game right now.

I just want something that is useful for when you have about 0-20 damage that is easy to use and make.

CPTANT wrote:I just want something that is useful for when you have about 0-20 damage that is easy to use and make.

i have decided to retroactively implement your suggestion through irony magic: you can now quickly heal small amounts of health via eating warm donkpockets with omnizine, healthy foods with vitamin, food in general with nutriment, and a new chem called 'granibitaluri' that tops off low amounts of health, included by default as 60% of most mixes in medbay such as aiuri/libital sprays, syriniver syringes, and normal patches.

also libital and aiuri are excellent for small damage healing, a single patch or spray will never harm you enough to do anything of any real amount, unless you like, forgot you welded open 3 walls before taking an aiuri pill

Please for the love of God, increase the healing rate on tend wounds, it is agonisingly slow even in ideal conditions

Anonmare wrote:Please for the love of God, increase the healing rate on tend wounds, it is agonisingly slow even in ideal conditions

Yell at sci to upgrade your shit. It goes plenty fast enough for me. The only time it's slow is if you're trying to fix 150+ wounds with basic tend wounds.

carlarc wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I just want something that is useful for when you have about 0-20 damage that is easy to use and make.

i have decided to retroactively implement your suggestion through irony magic: you can now quickly heal small amounts of health via eating warm donkpockets with omnizine, healthy foods with vitamin, food in general with nutriment, and a new chem called 'granibitaluri' that tops off low amounts of health, included by default as 60% of most mixes in medbay such as aiuri/libital sprays, syriniver syringes, and normal patches.

also libital and aiuri are excellent for small damage healing, a single patch or spray will never harm you enough to do anything of any real amount, unless you like, forgot you welded open 3 walls before taking an aiuri pill

Food in general pretty sucks for healing. With the exception of warm donkpockets yes.

Granibitaluri is way too hard to craft for something that has such abysmal healing. I requires several heating steps and 4 layers of subcrafting.

Anonmare wrote:Please for the love of God, increase the healing rate on tend wounds, it is agonisingly slow even in ideal conditions

Ideal conditions would be experimental tend wounds with alien surgery tools, which I can assure you is quite fast.

CPTANT wrote:

carlarc wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I just want something that is useful for when you have about 0-20 damage that is easy to use and make.

i have decided to retroactively implement your suggestion through irony magic: you can now quickly heal small amounts of health via eating warm donkpockets with omnizine, healthy foods with vitamin, food in general with nutriment, and a new chem called 'granibitaluri' that tops off low amounts of health, included by default as 60% of most mixes in medbay such as aiuri/libital sprays, syriniver syringes, and normal patches.

also libital and aiuri are excellent for small damage healing, a single patch or spray will never harm you enough to do anything of any real amount, unless you like, forgot you welded open 3 walls before taking an aiuri pill

Food in general pretty sucks for healing. With the exception of warm donkpockets yes.

Granibitaluri is way too hard to craft for something that has such abysmal healing. I requires several heating steps and 4 layers of subcrafting.

Granibitaluri isnt supposed to be made, it is a filler chem for the meds in medkits so people dont use more of the cat2 chems than needed. before the dosages were too much and people ended up going blind or killing their liver after using 2 patches.

Seriously please rename chems back to what they used to be called, the new names are just stupid.

Dr_bee wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

carlarc wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I just want something that is useful for when you have about 0-20 damage that is easy to use and make.

i have decided to retroactively implement your suggestion through irony magic: you can now quickly heal small amounts of health via eating warm donkpockets with omnizine, healthy foods with vitamin, food in general with nutriment, and a new chem called 'granibitaluri' that tops off low amounts of health, included by default as 60% of most mixes in medbay such as aiuri/libital sprays, syriniver syringes, and normal patches.

also libital and aiuri are excellent for small damage healing, a single patch or spray will never harm you enough to do anything of any real amount, unless you like, forgot you welded open 3 walls before taking an aiuri pill

Food in general pretty sucks for healing. With the exception of warm donkpockets yes.

Granibitaluri is way too hard to craft for something that has such abysmal healing. I requires several heating steps and 4 layers of subcrafting.

Granibitaluri isnt supposed to be made, it is a filler chem for the meds in medkits so people dont use more of the cat2 chems than needed. before the dosages were too much and people ended up going blind or killing their liver after using 2 patches.

Well that only makes it even less fitting to my description, doesn't it?

CPTANT wrote:

Anonmare wrote:Please for the love of God, increase the healing rate on tend wounds, it is agonisingly slow even in ideal conditions

Ideal conditions would be experimental tend wounds with alien surgery tools, which I can assure you is quite fast.

I refer to the basic tend wounds with normal tools, which is what you'll be doing 90% of the time because operating tables+computers are at a premium with space, and willingless to make more, being the limiting factor.

The basic tend wounds surgery only heals 5 brute per successful interaction (on unclothed patients, clothed patients only heal a measly 2.5. Dead people heal even LESS so it's often not even good for getting people in defib range.) which is far too low in my honest opinion. Bruise packs and ointment heal more than that and don't take so much faffing about so of course nobody wants to willingly submit to the surgery.

To be perfectly honest, I have half a mind to remove the healing loss from clothing and up the heals to 10. It should be competitive with bruise packs and ointments, especially if we're removing the latter.