The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Bottom post of the previous page:

As soon as foreskin restoration treatments reach the market, all of these American mutilation victims are going to change their minds about catgirls.

[Bawhoppennn]

Why was so much time spent on the wording of the poll only for it to end up being vague and non-definite anyways? If the majority of players want felinids gone, then that's fine, but we can't have a poll that makes people think they won't get ethereals or whatever else without also removing cats. I honestly think we need another poll, and I'm not just saying that to use as some sort of lame stalling tactic. I hardly even care about cats myself at this point, but on a matter of principle, we probably should have one.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

If the majority of players want felinids gone, then that's fine, but we can't have a poll that makes people think they won't get ethereals or whatever else without also removing cats.

Oranges took great pains to let everyone know that he would not merge ethereals unless they voted to remove cats. There wasn't ambiguous bias, it was right out in the open.

TGstation already had the fair and balanced polls you're talking about having, and felinids won both of them, so rigging the third one like this was necessary to get the desired result.

[Lazengann]

headmins signed off on it and then were too embarrassed to correct it when the implications of the wording was brought to their attention after

[Doctor Pork]

[img]https://image.ibb.co/moOEvA/Screenshot-2018-11-10-at-10-17-26-PM.png[/img]

its oranges stop saying Oranges or ill fucking click the button dont test me

Some people right?

Also did christmas come early? Cause this thread is truly a gift. Honestly, I don't see a problem with letting people know your plans should they choose to vote one way or another, calling it bribery seems like a pretty biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

hey since we're pulling IRL politics into this when do we rise up and seize the means of production for the proletariat

N O W

[afelinidisfinetoo]

headmins signed off on it and then were too embarrassed to correct it when the implications of the wording was brought to their attention after

Regardless of whether other people agreed to the poll, oranges made the poll. Is the person making the poll not meant to be totally impartial? It doesn't look like that's the case here. Imagine if the dude in charge of voting machines was a raging Vermin Supreme supporter, that probably wouldn't be a good idea. He might make an IRV machine with options like

1. vote for Clinton
2. vote for Bush
3. vote for Vermin Supreme and I give you a handjob

and that wouldn't be conducive to an accurate democracy, would it?

[Lazengann]

no the headmins are in charge of server polls because that's how the separation of codebase and server goes

[afelinidisfinetoo]

no the headmins are in charge of server polls because that's how the separation of codebase and server goes

Why did oranges make the poll, then? And why is he announcing the results?
What do headmins have to do with oranges bribing the voter to get his favored result?

It was oranges who said, "I will only do a guaranteed merge of ethereals if felinids lose the vote". Headmins did not make him say that. Oranges is not a child and is responsible for his fuckups.

[Lazengann]

he's the code guy, headmins aren't able to take code action on the results because that's how separation of codebase and server goes

[afelinidisfinetoo]

he's the code guy, headmins aren't able to take code action on the results because that's how separation of codebase and server goes

Oranges wrote the poll options himself. PKP, someone defending him earlier in the thread, said this and seems to be sure of it.
If headmins are responsible for polls and oranges is just the code monkey who makes it technically happen, please explain to me why he wrote the poll options, including the ones containing voter bribery.

[Lazengann]

it was a joint effort between departments and this is what we ended up with

[afelinidisfinetoo]

it was a joint effort between departments and this is what we ended up with

And in this joint effort between the very separate & distinct departments of code and server, I think it would be fair to say that oranges deserves the majority of the blame for the poll being botched given that he wrote the poll and all of its options and also chose to exercise his power as headcoder to say "This popular PR will not be merged unless catgirls lose the vote".

[Lazengann]

he hasn't even officially announced the results and what's going to be done

[afelinidisfinetoo]

he hasn't even officially announced the results and what's going to be done

He did
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 4&p=453522

[Steelpoint]

But the results and actions were announced...

[Lazengann]

oh whoops he stuck it in announcements which I don't check ever. What about the compromise doesn't satisfy you?

[afelinidisfinetoo]

oh whoops he stuck it in announcements which I don't check ever. What about the compromise doesn't satisfy you?

The fact that any action whatsoever was taken based on the results of a flawed, biased vote that bribes the voter with the promise of new content in exchange for oranges' favored result winning.

I also think the compromise itself is just bad. A lot of people will view this as a political thing, and the fact that both parties got fucked will make them happy. I am thinking about the issue itself and it's just bad. New players will join and wonder why they can't pick the catgirl race, and someone will have to explain to explain this shit to them. What does it actually solve?

Also, the compromise itself is a political move. Oranges slantedly admits multiple times in the thread that it's just a tactic to reduce support for felinids and that he plans to eventually remove them. It's not a compromise intended to satisfy both parties, it's oranges doing the most he can safely do right now.

[Lazengann]

saying it's a bribe is a strange argument because it's admitting that ethereals are a more desirable race than cats. If they weren't then it wouldn't be a bribe. And if one feature is more desirable than another then it makes sense to replace the less good with the more good.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

saying it's a bribe is a strange argument because it's admitting that ethereals are a more desirable race than cats. If they weren't then it wouldn't be a bribe. And if one feature is more desirable than another then it makes sense to replace the less good with the more good.

Etherals are brand new, never before seen content that has not even been testmerged. Of course people want to play them. Etherals can be added without removing felinids. If a race needs to be replaced to implement etherals (it doesn't), the vastly less popular flypeople are a perfect candidate.

It is bribery, this is not a strange argument, it's factually correct. Including a "Remove felinids and I merge <x> enticing new race" option without a "Keep felinids and I merge <x> enticing new race" option is voter bribery. It is also a misuse of his headcoder privileges to influence a server poll (something you just said should fall totally to the headmins.) Oranges publicly said in more than one place that he would not do a guaranteed merge of etherals unless catgirls lost the vote, he made this as clear to the voters as he possibly could because he wanted the bribery to be more effective.

[Lazengann]

flypeople exist as a punishment for teleporter abuse and therefore have gameplay value

[Steelpoint]

No other race has gained as much controversy as Catpeople, so it does make sense they'd be up on the exchange board for something more desirable.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

flypeople exist as a punishment for teleporter abuse and therefore have gameplay value

Okay, let's have a vote concerning whether flypeople or felinids should be removed to "make room" for etherals, if you are really unironically backing yourself into the tiny, tiny corner of saying that this is an issue of race congestion.

[Steelpoint]

There has never been a debate on removing Flypeople, they are a punishment race for misusing a ingame mechanic.

The issue has been congestion of round start races, of which Catpeople are.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

No other race has gained as much controversy as Catpeople, so it does make sense they'd be up on the exchange board for something more desirable.

Controversy is absolutely not a reason to remove something. Oranges is really controversial, I guess we had better remove him as headcoder.

[Steelpoint]

You'd have to be blind to miss the fact that ever since Catpeople were added we've seen constant and consistent debates, discussion and drama surrounding them. I do not think there is any other feature in the game that has gained this level of controversy over such an extended period of time.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

There has never been a debate on removing Flypeople, they are a punishment race for misusing a ingame mechanic.

The issue has been congestion of round start races, of which Catpeople are.

Flypeople are a roundstart race, as I have already said earlier.

>roundstart
dumb person

Flypeople are a roundstart race
To all users who do not regularly play the game, I recommend you refrain from commenting in this thread.

[Steelpoint]

But they are also a punishment race for misuse of the Teleporter.

[Lazengann]

Controversy is a reason to remove something why wouldn't it be

[afelinidisfinetoo]

You'd have to be blind to miss the fact that ever since Catpeople were added we've seen constant and consistent debates, discussion and drama surrounding them. I do not think there is any other feature in the game that has gained this level of controversy over such an extended period of time.

You are right. If something is controversial, that is, if people care about it, we must remove it. Everything filled with passion must be cut out and replaced with pleasant and safe tapioca pudding that offends no one.

Oranges has been the subject of much controversy, so by your own logic we have to replace him. Sorry. My hands are tied.

[Steelpoint]

Except the level of controversy surrounding Catpeople has resulted in a unprecedented level of administration interventions, including multiple config changes, many polls and entire campaigns based around the retention or removal of them.

Sorry to be frank but we've seen many a passionate feature removed from the game, no one cares how much effort you put into something but if it does not mesh well or is too divisive then it gets the cut.

Also, equating removing or reworking controversial features into banning a controversial person from the game is a poor argument.

[Lazengann]

I'd fill a catgirl with my passion if you know what I mean

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Except the level of controversy surrounding Catpeople has resulted in a unprecedented level of administration interventions, including multiple config changes, many polls and entire campaigns based around the retention or removal of them.

Oranges as well. This whole thread is the result of his actions. He has caused multiple headmin interventions, not just in this issue but in others. You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

The mobius loop of retardation

>I want this feature removed, I will complain about it
>People are saying there is no reason to remove it?! This is controversy!
>It is controversial, see? This is why you should remove it!

It's like getting arrested for the sole charge of resisting arrest. I can barely comprehend the mental gymnastics

[Lazengann]

You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

I'm glad you've seen the light on the catgirl issue. Good luck with removing oranges!

[Steelpoint]

Are you intentionally ignoring the reasonings for wanting to remove Catpeople?

Well, either way. I feel afelindisfinetoo is intentionally just stirring the pot and is not contributing to the discussion, so I'll not be arguing the case with them any further.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

I'm glad you've seen the light on the catgirl issue. Good luck with removing oranges!

Great, then this issue is closed.

I still have some unanswered questions I would love for us to move on to:

Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?
Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?

Substitute "you" for "oranges" as necessary for the questions to properly parse. Please remember to answer all of them and not just one. It won't take long.

[actioninja]

I still can't tell if this is some kind of 7D chess galaxy brain trolling or if you actually lack this much reading comprehension.
Either way this is one of the funniest forum threads I have read in a long time.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Are you intentionally ignoring the reasonings for wanting to remove Catpeople?

I absolutely am not ignoring the reasons why people want catgirls removed, but I am not accepting the bullshit desperation answer that it's because we simply must remove a race to make room for etherals. There are many, many better candidates if that were necessary, and it isn't.

The actual reasons people want catgirls removed is something I've talked about in another thread. To restate it briefly, the two primary reasons are as follows:
1) TGstation is composed chiefly of americans with mutilated penises and deep sexual repression, who consider, on an instinctive level, anything that is in any way sexually appealing (like catgirls) to be wrong
2) "anti-degeneracy" is an en vogue form of social signaling, people who are disliked by the community or otherwise want to be liked try to take on some kind of antihero hard-man persona with "anti-degenerate" campaigning. Based goofball!

[Togopal]

[Lazengann]

Great, then this issue is closed.
I still have some unanswered questions I would love for us to move on to:

Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?

I'm not oranges but I'll try answering. This question is the same as the one below it so I'll skip it.

Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?

Having too many races would give the game a "petting zoo" type of feel, and it would dilute the amount of attention and effort each individual race would get. This has been a problem in other servers. Flypeople are intentionally unpopular, given that they're a punishment race. They probably don't need to be a round start race.

Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?

It's a decent way to gauge whether people just dislike felinids or if they're just against alien races in general.

The reason the question isn't a generic "would you rather have felinids or a different alien race" is because person A would vote for it because they want their grape jelly slime girl fetish race, person F would vote for it because they want their furry wolf race, and person xXx would vote for it because they want their edgy demon mary sue race. That poll question would be a landslide. Asking about the two races that could be realistically implemented gets a more honest result.

Substitute "you" for "oranges" as necessary for the questions to properly parse. Please remember to answer all of them and not just one. It won't take long.

Disclaimer: these are my personal opinions and oranges would call me a fucking retard if he had the attention span to read it, because he's a

fucking

dick

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Having too many races would give the game a "petting zoo" type of feel, and it would dilute the amount of attention and effort each individual race would get. This has been a problem in other servers. Flypeople are intentionally unpopular, given that they're a punishment race. They probably don't need to be a round start race.

Great. If your only complaint is that the number of races needs to be reduced by one, we will remove any random race, it doesn't have to be a roundstart race. We can even remove plasmen too if we want. Just pick any race at random and people will want it removed rather than removing felinids. Any vote would confirm this and you 100% know that.

[the "remove felinids and add etherals" option] is a decent way to gauge whether people just dislike felinids or if they're just against alien races in general.

The purpose of the poll is not to decide whether the voters are for or against alien races as a general concept, it is to decide whether the voters want felinids to be included. Trying to poll for two things simultaneously will absolutely cross-contaminate the poll and make the results worthless. Ever wonder why a poll can have as many options as you want, but only one question? This would be why.

You didn't answer all the questions but I guess this was as close as anyone has come. You specifically ignored the questions pertaining to whether or not bribing the voters with new content in exchange for them voting to remove felinids taints the poll. I think you probably agree that it taints the poll, that's why you ignored those questions.

[Lazengann]

I expertly dodged that question because I have no right to complain after I had the chance to complain before it went up and didn't

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I expertly dodged that question because I have no right to complain after I had the chance to complain before it went up and didn't

Okay, makes sense.

It is really the cardinal sin of this whole thing, I don't care about anything else. I find it particularly awful that oranges publicly broadcasted in OOC and discord that "etherals will only get a guaranteed merge [if felinids lose the poll]". He knew that option was bribery, and he tried to sweeten it. I won't personally give him the benefit of the doubt after he did that. I think he tried his best to enforce his personal will on a sham of a vote. It is kind of amazing that his favored option only won by twenty votes out of 500+.

[Lazengann]

Did he say that they'd never get merged ever unless they won?

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Did he say that they'd never get merged ever unless they won?

To my knowledge he never said "Etherals will absolutely not be merged if catgirls win the vote", but he did say, emphatically: "The only guaranteed merge for etherals is if catgirls lose the vote." I specifically remember a morning where he threatened to ban me from the server for saying in OOC "Etherals will be merged regardless of what happens with catgirls", then made a highly visible announcement that it was a lie and that voting against catgirls was the only way to 100% ensure etherals would be merged. So I think he knew very much what he was doing.

[Lazengann]

alright you got me

[bman]

the final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led up to this point, and then it was finally over

[Munchlax]

Pls go outside