/tg/Station 13

Secborgs would be a non issue if they ever actually followed their laws.

I've seen borgs drag people through a vacuum to take them to the brig and I have to wonder why they can still play borg with that blatant law 1 breaking.

They should be letting non-harmful criminals go if the criminals ask too, but I've seen it happen maybe twice in my years here.

Takeguru wrote:Secborgs would be a non issue if they ever actually followed their laws.

I've seen borgs drag people through a vacuum to take them to the brig and I have to wonder why they can still play borg with that blatant law 1 breaking.

They should be letting non-harmful criminals go if the criminals ask too, but I've seen it happen maybe twice in my years here.

Report them every time you see a law violation.

I've personally told off one or two secborgs who disobey orders from non-harmful prisoners. I've come close to locking down one borg who swore blind that the person was a Ling but I couldn't let them kill that person until there was confirmation from multiple people and/or physical evidence.

Fuck AIs who let their borgs/themselves kill suspected Lings without getting confirmation first.

I generally give shit-sucking borgs one chance if I catch them breaking laws, then they get blown and can suck it because clearly there's something faulty in a lawbreaker borg.

Also the AI always gets blamed for shitfuck borgs so I take the hard line.

Miauw wrote:remove secborg 2015

I know Hippie removed secborgs, whereas we just removed tasers because adding tasers to secborgs were fucking insane and just replaced them with disablers. Hippie never went through that step, they just said fuck it and it was gone.

it wouldnt even do that though
standard borgs already get a baton and other borgs still exist, engieborg is arguably more robust than secborg in malf anyways
remove secborg 2015

I have no idea what the fuck everyone is on in this thread.

AI is fine. borgs are fine.

If you're scared of getting caught by the AI, don't let them see you by cutting cameras, or dragging your target into maintinence.

If you're scared of getting wrecked by a secborg, bring a laser pointer, stun them, then beat them to death.

It's kind of ridiculously funny how a laser pointer is a hard counter to most SIlicons and even security if your RNGame is good. They EMP cameras, Stun/blind/mute borgs and can flash people through eye protection

I wish there were more laser pointers to be found honestly.

Anonmare wrote:It's kind of ridiculously funny how a laser pointer is a hard counter to most SIlicons and even security if your RNGame is good. They EMP cameras, Stun/blind/mute borgs and can flash people through eye protection

I wish there were more laser pointers to be found honestly.

They're basically unatainable outside of mining or a suicided librarian, and you also need to upgrade them with a microlaser for them to do anything but fail every single time. I'm not sure if you need to upgrade them so that they "flash" borgs though.

EMPing cameras though... That's FAR more robust than I thought they were, jeez, I need to try those out.

When I logged into the game today the OOC was rabid discussing how "Oldman wants AIs removed", before someone pointed me to this thread I made a prediction along the lines of "Lemme guess, Oldman didn't greentext because of an AI and now he whines and wants nerfs?". After that I looked into this thread and didn't even have to read past the very first sentence to confirm this. Other people in OOC who also joined later had similar experiences.

While this isn't a counter argument per se, it does kind of tell what is expected of Oldman... anyway.

to the overwhelming problem.

Let me stop you right there and ask if there seriously exist a problem, let alone an "overwhelming" one. Because I certainly don't see any problem and I see plenty of antags who get their greentext and have efficient ways to deal with the AI/borgs, avoid them or even see them as a resource to be used.

Removing AI, gutting core AI functions that have existed for several years, etc. are pipe dreams for now since they're still too controversial.

Well it's good that you already reveal your endgame I guess.

But because I believe that arguments and suggestions have to be judged on their own merit instead of who is proposing them... let's look at your solutions.

1) Add the doorjack...

Isn't this kind of really similar to C4? It's also a really cheap traitor item that can be used to blow open new passages and isn't just restricted to doors. Most rooms and places on the station also offer enough room to move out of the blast zone. And if you have to resort to using the doorjack then you've already been discovered and might as well use a C4.

Plus there's the emag, a slightly more expensive traitor item that can hack open doors which are then out of control for the AI.

I've personally never ever had a problem with an AI locking me down because I have an escape route planned, be it a window I've broken instead of using a door, emagging a door open so it cannot be bolted, or something else.

deal with the AI power creep

I don't know on whats sever you're playing on, but silicons have to be among the most common candidates for getting a nerf. It has almost become comical. In the relative short time I've played here (which does span multiple years) silicons have been nerfed times and times again with the amount of buffs paling in comparison. I really don't see how there's a "power creep" that implies that silicons are getting more and more powerful as the game goes on.

new AI meta

This is another thing... this really isn't exclusive to silicons at all, but whenever there is a nerf to something players will eventually find a new way around that nerf or a new method or ditch something in favour of something more powerful. This is a natural progression for any game. This way kind of punishes good players for making the most efficient use of the tools at their disposal.

2) Give lings a single-tile ability that's a mix between emag and doorjack

This actually isn't a bad idea, though I would prefer it to be an "obvious" method like an emag. Maybe the ling could extend like a tentacle into the door and then "force" it open. The broken door could still have the "vines" all over them which the Detective could scan to find out who the ling was when he did it. It's a very high risk vs. reward thing as it would grant you access to whatever door (even if bolted or depowered) but will inform the crew about there being a ling on the station.

The SUPER-CONVENIENCING of every AI feature is part of the cancer that had made the AI just short of a god in most rounds.

I don't see how simple convinience would accomplish that, plus it's not like the AI is the only role that ever gets "buffs" to make things more convinient. Making something more inconvinient on purpose seems like really backwards thinking.

It's not that it's gained a ton of new functions, but rather those functions had historically been limited by how clunky they were to use. Now everything is able on the UI as buttons with slick interfaces available to make every conceivable AI action just 2 clicks away at most.

Which is a very good thing? I really don't get your mindset here.

Nobody wanted to argue with making the system less clunky

And yet here you are...

Now what we see are roundstart robocops who speak exclusively in sec and/or command channels 90% of the round,

Could it be because sec/command are the two channels that need the most coordinaton and get the most use out of the AI? The med or science channels don't have much reason to talk to the AI except for getting a door open maybe. And the AI has little reason to talk to other channels as well, it can call a medic over med or report a breach for engie, but that's it really.

AI has the valid brigade coming to stomp you with absolutely no warning.

There already exist three items to give you an early warning plus another for avoiding detection... you could get the traitor-multitool that changes color when the AI watches you, you could get the binary-key to listen to silicon radio chatter, you could get the traitor-thermals to see through freaking walls, and you can get the chameleon projector which hides you 99% of the time.



So to sum this up:

- There already exist enough ways to be informed about your own situations/get early warnings, there're enough ways to avoid detection or avoid being trapped
- You're arguing to make the game more inaccessible and inconvinient on purpose because you're under some delusion that being able to efficiently work through a clunky system is somehow an "elegant balacing act"
- You're mad because you didn't get your greentext and demand that the game is changed in a way that makes your antag-ideas and plans more viable, instead of adapting and working out a plan around these obstacles.
- You want extra super specialised items which share functionality with already existing items just to get around obstacles you aren't keen enough to find your own way around.

This whole thing is simply ridiculous. Stop whining and get good, adapt your playstyle, experiment with new traitor ideas and plans and stop trying to have the game changed to fit your playstyle.

Please stop trying to make all the antagonists the same by giving each and all of them the same suite of abilities. Different crew roles should have different effectiveness vs different antagonists. Endlessly throwing patchwork solutions like "doorjackers" at a problem is not a good solution.

The solo antags can have easy access to EMP if they so wish. If you hate borgs so much they are about the one lings can kill with ease with their abilities.

As a solo antag you can personally remove secborg become the secborg serial killer, instead of having freak outs over the drat thing you can savor destroying it.

So you don't enjoy killing cyborgs? The EMP kit is cheap, not that I am saying you should need to buy it all the time but if borgs are something you fear more so intensely go ahead. Also not much of a sacrifice for lings because they are too impotent against living normal humans anyway.

You do not need antagonist items to kill a cyborg. Steal a flash from tech storage or robotics. You now have a para-pen like device which will blind, stun, and silence a borg for a long enough time for you to do whatever you want with it. This is valid for all game modes.

yeah flashes completely fucking wreck borgs.

I was presenting options easily available outside melee range since even with pissablers people flip out over the borg shooting them down at range.

Go around a corner? Only Sec borgs can use disablers and you can trap them with tables or buckle them into a chair if they don't know how to resist out of it. Borgs ain't unstoppable killing machines, they can do one job really well and that's it.
Do you want to remove the disabler? That'll leave Sec borgs so impotent you may as well just remove them because good fucking luck trying to catch anything with a baton alone. And removing sec borgs completely fucks Rogue AIs over who can't even rely on the one borg with an actual lethal weapon when hacked.

Also, removing rounstart AI remove traitor AIs; meaning that any AI made during the round you're more or less guaranteed is not a traitor (excusing possible subversion or mulligan/adminbus) and reinforces the Silicon/Security relationship more which is what damn near everyone who hates the AI has a problem with.

Remove the disabler, give them VTEC by default :^)

lol @ this thread