/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

My only complaint was the dead space inside departments, otherwise I liked the concept a lot

It's a shame most people don't come up with criticism beyond "this sucks", especially when that's a gut reaction because they didn't get to play on box for a round or whatever

Is this map in a Sybil or Bagil rotation? Or is it on a test server only?

cmspano wrote:Is this map in a Sybil or Bagil rotation? Or is it on a test server only?

It runs for a couple rounds when I ask for it on whatever server has the more appropriate population, which is usually Bagil.

I typically ask for test runs on Friday/Saturday, so there's that.

Cerestation is now officially part of map rotation, although I still plan on working on it.

Navigational beacons are proving to be a bit difficult to implement into this map due to the scale, with current results ending in hilariously stupid shit like mulebots taking the external airlocks and doing some 'tokyo drift'-tier shit around the station asteroids to reach their destinations. I'm somewhat hoping to not find a solution to this because it's funny to watch.

What this map needs right now are admins that are actually willing to stop the massive IC in OOC spam and the roundstart griefing where people kill and break everything and then complain that the map "plays awful". Any map is going to "play awful" if players do this.

I wouldn't mind the shit-stirring and 'bad' nearly as much if it wasn't for the fact the few people who are typically vocal about it usually don't show up in the thread after it being posted multiple times in OOC to post the criticism somewhere more static so I have something to base off of.

Like, jesus. I can get it if you don't like the map, but at least be productive with your shit-flinging so something useful can come out of it.

I think you'll have to wait a month or three before the "THIS SUCKS EVERYONE GRIFF ECKS DEE" dies down and people post actual criticism unfortunately

remember when map rotation got merged? everyone pitched a fit the moment the map switched off box, but (imo) that was one of the best features to ever get merged

also from what I can tell the majority of ss13 players are atrocious at giving constructive feedback so that doesn't help either

Tokiko2 wrote:What this map needs right now are admins that are actually willing to stop the massive IC in OOC spam and the roundstart griefing where people kill and break everything and then complain that the map "plays awful". Any map is going to "play awful" if players do this.

I've been busy with school/etc. recently so I haven't been on but I have no patience for this shit, so make sure to ahelp if you don't already

As a ghost, I tried to teleport to the vault, but the teleport->vault function made me end up around dorms.

The primary design element of this map, its size, is the primary reason why people do not like it. no amount of quantam pads are going to solve that, the station needs to be smushed together, reduce the distance between each island and the long hallways will be tolerable.

the problem with this size is two fold, it makes policing the station difficult, and it makes any sort of timely rescue by medical staff difficult.

a single traitor on a murderbone that people enjoy doing so much can absolutly decimate this station, simply because there are no general areas where people congregate making isolating single targets easy. I managed to kill a significant portion of the station on a rampage during decent population and I am probably the least robust player ever.

Another problem with the size involves nuke ops, the station takes up so much of the z-level that the operative infiltration shuttle literally touches the outside of the station in some places. this makes the shuttle easy to spot and attempt to board simply by skimming the outside of the station.

The work that was put into this map saddens me, because it is so glaringly flawed, reduce the distance between each astroid island and it might become more tolerable to the playerbase.

Dr_bee wrote:The primary design element of this map, its size, is the primary reason why people do not like it. no amount of quantam pads are going to solve that, the station needs to be smushed together, reduce the distance between each island and the long hallways will be tolerable.

I fully understand some people will not like the map due to its size, but you must understand that the whole point of the distance is to create isolation separation. I've heard both positive and negative comments mostly on this, with it either being a love or hate situation. I don't plan on compacting anything, as that'd defeat the whole purpose of the concept I started with.

Dr_bee wrote: the problem with this size is two fold, it makes policing the station difficult, and it makes any sort of timely rescue by medical staff difficult.

Again, the isolation factor. Policing the station might be harder but you should probably look into bargaining with robotics for some securitrons/EDs if you want more over-all coverage. Being able to cover the entire station in 3-5 minutes on a patrol makes it damn-near impossible to do shady shit on-station without some obscene method of hiding stuff. People should be able to do shady stuff with some level of security knowing they probably won't get bumped into by some random assistant whose scavanging maintenance for loot every 5 minutes.

As for medical response, everyone spawns with ephi-pens to stabilize critical patients and departments farther off from Medbay even have a mini-medbay stocked with various kits to help stabilize patients/restore lost blood. If you're losing patients, it's because you didn't take care of them and keep them stable on the way to medbay.

Dr_bee wrote: a single traitor on a murderbone that people enjoy doing so much can absolutly decimate this station, simply because there are no general areas where people congregate making isolating single targets easy. I managed to kill a significant portion of the station on a rampage during decent population and I am probably the least robust player ever.

Sounds like an issue with people not actually working together to solve the issue and instead staying scattered with a known-threat running about. Not my problem people are dumb enough to stay as easy pickings for someone to kill off.

Dr_bee wrote: Another problem with the size involves nuke ops, the station takes up so much of the z-level that the operative infiltration shuttle literally touches the outside of the station in some places. this makes the shuttle easy to spot and attempt to board simply by skimming the outside of the station.

This comes to more of an issue with restraints on map size in general. There should be about a screen's distance for each docking spot, at least from when I did my local testing. Have fun boarding the ship with those 60-brute turrets shooting you, though.

Dr_bee wrote: The work that was put into this map saddens me, because it is so glaringly flawed, reduce the distance between each asteroid island and it might become more tolerable to the playerbase.

Again, this comes down to a preference I've seen with people either hating or loving the idea and its result. It's fine if you dislike the map, completely understandable. It should just be noted that the main reason it got worked on/merged in the first place was because there were people who DID enjoy the map's idea and the changes it brought.

Dr_bee wrote:The primary design element of this map, its size, is the primary reason why people do not like it. no amount of quantam pads are going to solve that, the station needs to be smushed together, reduce the distance between each island and the long hallways will be tolerable.

the problem with this size is two fold, it makes policing the station difficult, and it makes any sort of timely rescue by medical staff difficult.

a single traitor on a murderbone that people enjoy doing so much can absolutly decimate this station, simply because there are no general areas where people congregate making isolating single targets easy. I managed to kill a significant portion of the station on a rampage during decent population and I am probably the least robust player ever.

Another problem with the size involves nuke ops, the station takes up so much of the z-level that the operative infiltration shuttle literally touches the outside of the station in some places. this makes the shuttle easy to spot and attempt to board simply by skimming the outside of the station.

The work that was put into this map saddens me, because it is so glaringly flawed, reduce the distance between each astroid island and it might become more tolerable to the playerbase.

I know mmmiracles commented on this post but what is the point of making new maps if they're going to play like every other map in rotation

maybe cerestation as is doesn't work, i don't know, but I'd much rather have maps that try something new and fail than maps which play the exact same as the others but with some different layouts

Qbopper wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:The primary design element of this map, its size, is the primary reason why people do not like it. no amount of quantam pads are going to solve that, the station needs to be smushed together, reduce the distance between each island and the long hallways will be tolerable.

the problem with this size is two fold, it makes policing the station difficult, and it makes any sort of timely rescue by medical staff difficult.

a single traitor on a murderbone that people enjoy doing so much can absolutly decimate this station, simply because there are no general areas where people congregate making isolating single targets easy. I managed to kill a significant portion of the station on a rampage during decent population and I am probably the least robust player ever.

Another problem with the size involves nuke ops, the station takes up so much of the z-level that the operative infiltration shuttle literally touches the outside of the station in some places. this makes the shuttle easy to spot and attempt to board simply by skimming the outside of the station.

The work that was put into this map saddens me, because it is so glaringly flawed, reduce the distance between each astroid island and it might become more tolerable to the playerbase.

I know mmmiracles commented on this post but what is the point of making new maps if they're going to play like every other map in rotation

maybe cerestation as is doesn't work, i don't know, but I'd much rather have maps that try something new and fail than maps which play the exact same as the others but with some different layouts

more robust departmental sec might help, as well as clinics or dedicated first aid stations on the sides farthest from medbay. Cogmap2 on goon also uses a disposal chute from departmental sec offices to move prisoners directly to the brig without having to traverse a similarly large station.

Also the space disposals makes murder a tad too easy, as you are unlikely to survive an unwilling trip through disposals. I while I understand it is unique, unique doesnt mean good.

I could look making the departmental checkpoints more robust, such as a singular holding cell and making it into a sort of mini-brig, that actually sounds like an interesting idea to try. If the mini-medbay sections I already have established don't prove effective enough, I might look into beefing them up a bit as well.

Space disposals can be lethal, but there are numerous belt-fed sections that exist solely to help catch still-living victims of being disposed, as well as still keeping the get-away aspect of disposals. Worst comes, at least your body will end up in Cargo!

also in addition to my previous post, the medbay pod is in the way ofthe belt hell.

No, it ain't.
Take a closer look.

Dr_bee wrote:Cogmap2 on goon also uses a disposal chute from departmental sec offices to move prisoners directly to the brig without having to traverse a similarly large station.

I've actually decided to go ahead and add this in the latest tweak PR. Each checkpoint has a disposal chute that leads directly to a waiting cell in the Brig for the warden to process. The visual was too funny to pass up and it isn't actually that bad of an idea.

DemonFiren wrote:No, it ain't.
Take a closer look.

It very much was in the way, and has been fixed in the tweak PR currently up.

the idea of a brutal security force ominously sending someone for "processing" only to stuff them in a trash can and send them via tube to the brig is infinitely hilarious to me

8 garden cameras, but NT can't spare the budget to give me full coverage of the AI core.

Also the secure RD consoles in the middle of Robotics, nice.

Another Too-Large-For-Its-Own Good TM map.

Needs more NATIONS

Toxins is pretty cramped, and there are no avaible freezers to be used.

Iatots wrote:Toxins is pretty cramped, and there are no avaible freezers to be used.

Lack of a built-in freezer is more of a design choice, as it always felt kinda cheap to me that you didn't need any external effort to get chilled oxygen and mad-bombers never seemed to have much of an issue obtaining the stuff before the freezer was mapped into science. Barter with atmos or build a freezer yourself if you need to chill stuff from the comfort of your department.

I can see about expanding Toxins a bit like I did Robotics, plenty of free space on the side to work with.

Yakumo_Chen wrote:8 garden cameras, but NT can't spare the budget to give me full coverage of the AI core.

Also the secure RD consoles in the middle of Robotics, nice.

I'll see about the cameras in the AI Core, but I'm pretty sure the station isn't going to go up in flames because the AI integrity restorer being located in a slightly more accessible place.

Big thing I'm noticing from rounds is that the major complaint with the map is the spacing. While I enjoy the idea of being spaced out and isolating departments, it seems to be more of a minority opinion when it comes to playing. I've added a poll to the thread to figure out whether or not I should take some time to compress the station together more to resolve some of this issue or leave it as is, as I've heard differing opinions on both sides of the subject.

MMMiracles wrote:Big thing I'm noticing from rounds is that the major complaint with the map is the spacing. While I enjoy the idea of being spaced out and isolating departments, it seems to be more of a minority opinion when it comes to playing. I've added a poll to the thread to figure out whether or not I should take some time to compress the station together more to resolve some of this issue or leave it as is, as I've heard differing opinions on both sides of the subject.

If at all possible squishing the map together would be a good thing. if you want to increase the isolation of each department maybe make the air-bridges retractable somehow. It is another blatant feature stolen from Cogmap 2 but it is a good one.

Dr_bee wrote:

MMMiracles wrote:Big thing I'm noticing from rounds is that the major complaint with the map is the spacing. While I enjoy the idea of being spaced out and isolating departments, it seems to be more of a minority opinion when it comes to playing. I've added a poll to the thread to figure out whether or not I should take some time to compress the station together more to resolve some of this issue or leave it as is, as I've heard differing opinions on both sides of the subject.

If at all possible squishing the map together would be a good thing. if you want to increase the isolation of each department maybe make the air-bridges retractable somehow. It is another blatant feature stolen from Cogmap 2 but it is a good one.

I do not support compressing the map, myself. I love the isolation aspect, although there are a few map issues that bother me. But, if you absolutely MUST compress the map, do what Dr_bee is suggesting here. The ability to cut off a department or have privacy is unprecedented on this map; This needs to be preserved!

On an unrelated note, I do not like the lack of head offices in departments. It feels rather detaching and makes the department feel harder to monitor. I do not expect you to do anything to address this, but I do feel compelled to express it anyway.

The air bridge is an interesting idea but I'd have to wait for post-freeze as that goes into the realm of new content.

What other issues do you have with the map? I plan on giving the poll a week before acting on size changes but I'm still interested in hearing other issues to work on until then. I might be able to rework departments a bit to give heads a personal office to chill in while still spawning in the bridge if that also seems to be an issue.

Some areas have spotty or missing camera view:
- The bridge junction directly south of the AI
- The mini-medbay in Science
- The Misc/Experimentor lab's containment room and entrance
- The western end of the Science to Arrivals Bridge
- The southern end of the Arrivals to Medical bridge
- The Escape airlocks
- Virology entrance and part of the interior work area
- Command Bridge: Head of Staff quarters and escape pod
- The westernmost tile of the HoP queue
- Security: The holding cell east of the Law Office
- The labor camp shuttle dock, both the northern and southern sets of airlocks there are not visible

I did not get a good look at everything on the map, but those are what stood out to me.

Isolation is half the point. If you absolutely must squish it together, don't do it too much.

Did you intend on having a Cerestation shuttle?

BeeSting12 wrote:Did you intend on having a Cerestation shuttle?

Yeah, Boxstation's shuttle was just a placeholder I threw in until I thought of a neat design then never actually got around to it. Not gonna bother pushing it until the map resize poll ends so I can do both at once if needed.

I would be sad to see the one thing making the map unique be pushed away because of kneejerk reactions to a new map

It's almost impossible to get any actual feedback on a map until it's been around for a bit (from my experience at least)

I'll make airbridges for you.
if you put the QM back in the bin where they belong.

Remie Richards wrote:I'll make airbridges for you.
if you put the QM back in the bin where they belong.

I spit water ALL OVER MY LAP when I saw this!

Your bribes hold no sway over the strong independent Cargoina and their glorious leader Quartermaster.

i dont dislike cargo but if you keep pushing qm to be a head i hope kor succeeds in removing cargo tb V h

"QM should be a head" has been a meme for ages

it is a meme yes, which is why MMM has taken it too far with his map.

I don't see how giving him a personal room on a sub-section of the bridge is taking it too far.

If the CMO can be a permanent head despite being a glorified doctor, I don't see why the QM can't have his time to shine once in awhile.

the way I see it heads are only there for critical sections of the station

medbay, engineering, and sec are all key to a functioning station, if cargo was removed then the station would still be able to go on

the hop is kinda just a mini captain that makes sure everything runs smoothly

this is all hypotheticals, anyways, also not the thread to discuss this whoops

The QM is not a head, he just has a room there.

Well, I was hoping for a slightly larger total amount of votes. I might look into some compression, but I'm not sure if the amount is really enough to do anything significant.

I like Cerestation, honestly. Maybe make things a little more close together, or make better use of the extensive space, but other than that, personally find it pretty good (though I understand this goes against the typical opinion, so if the playerbase continues to be outraged at it then you should definitely consider some changes).

Add more stuff to "maint" for the little tiders, and they won't complain.

Currently it's very easy to get trapped in the asteroid when re-entering the station z-level from space, which fucks you over unless you have a mining tool/an admin is on. I'd assume this is due to the size of the map, crunching the asteroids together a bit might fix this issue.

EDIT: Turns out it's actually the asteroids in space surrounding the station that are trapping people, not the station itself. They should probably be removed or moved closer to the station.

Here's a radical idea.

Take this whole station and put it INSIDE an asteroid instead. Basically like mining was pre-lavaland, domes and bases connected with paths, pipes and stuff. And let it be carved out organically as the game progresses.

Lumbermancer wrote:Here's a radical idea.

Take this whole station and put it INSIDE an asteroid instead. Basically like mining was pre-lavaland, domes and bases connected with paths, pipes and stuff. And let it be carved out organically as the game progresses.

So, essentially what Asteroidstation was, but instead of hallways you have this station's maintenance?

I recall asteroid station in the name only, but the hallways or paths between departments would be an asteroid tunnels and surface. It would allow you eat the cake and have it too. You could have your asteroid theme you are going for, while having departments as compact as you wish, while also having the openness of asteroid. You could even have different types of rocks so it doesn't get mined too fast.

I don't see how that'd do much to change the map as is, except for essentially replacing the space with large chunks of asteroid, leaving even more un-used space for some people to complain about.

QM STILL is not a head and should not have bridge access, as he can spawn as headrev.

The bottom left area in the AI core has no camera.

I dislike the fact that there's not enough cameras around the station, when the garden has like 8 jammed in it.

Yakumo_Chen wrote:QM STILL is not a head and should not have bridge access, as he can spawn as headrev.

The bottom left area in the AI core has no camera.

I dislike the fact that there's not enough cameras around the station, when the garden has like 8 jammed in it.

QM has access to the sub-section of the bridge he spawns in and can't get into the main section of the bridge. The lawyer can be a rev but he has access to the brig, so.

Also all those camera issues and more are dealt with in this PR.

Played a couple rounds today.
Engineers still need insulated gloves.
There are some wall beneath a pair of airlocks leading to arrivals maintenance.
There is another airlock walled off like this around medbay (sorry can't be more specific).
One of the bridges is missing a catwalk tile next to an airlock (again sorry but I forgot where, maybe west of medbay?).