PR#11689 Security Weapon Overhaul: Auto Rifle Edition

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:05 am #120040

Bottom post of the previous page:

Also I might lower the rifles to only hold 10 rounds instead of 20, due to complaints from one (maybe two) person/s.

ChangelingRain · Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:23 am

Blah blah blah I don't like autorifles because they're lasers, but better in everything but going through windows, and that's not much.
YOU WANTED FEEDBACK HERE IS MY PURE, UNFILTERED OPINIONS

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:28 am #120048

I'd say 15+ rounds or leave them at 20, because otherwise they're just lasers in ballistic form except worse because they can't fit in bags

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:29 am #120051

Saying that only "one or two" people dislike 20 round mags is pretty disingenuous considering the ammo capacity had been one of the largest criticisms of the autorifles

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:36 am #120054

Don't nerf them into oblivion. Ir would be more useful if you just added slugs to the armoury if you're gooing to cut them to 10 bullet mags.

Just make them cargo only and non shit, and buff lasers (double cap, same damage) and/or some lethal shells for shotguns.
Bam, thematically sound, ballistic fan sound, reasonably gated murderrifles (2 minute wait).

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:16 am #120059

If they were in cargo they may as well not be in the game at all. They would never be ordered because if it's a team antag you can bet your ass they'd get instant broken with emitters and used on you, which means it would be a massive nerf to security. Even IF it wasn't a team antag, it would take literally the best security team that ever was to get the logistics together to coherently order these crates, take these crates back to the brig, and then open and use them without any antag interruptions at all.

They're fine. If antags like traitors/lings actively know there are dudes in armor and with big fuck-off guns walking around, then it's time for them to go quiet for a while. For antags like Nuke Ops and wizards, well, wizards will have some problems, but they can always steal/space/explode all the guns in the armory, and Nuke Ops can either get out quick, or have their bullet resistance buffed.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:23 am #120060

Nuke Ops have more bullet protection than laser protection even before I added the auto rifles.

I've played as a Wizard post-auto rifles and I found little difference in fighting sec that use the rifles, its essentially a laser that has more rounds to use but I tend not to notice that, sec officers tend to carry plenty of weapons on themselves when the wizard is prevalent.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:55 am #120061

wiz and ops are barely effected by steelrifles because they can both space or loot the armoury before sec has any chance to get them.

Also Zil you seem to be implying that loyalty implants never get ordered during rev, cult or gang.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:15 am #120063

I didn't mention loyalty implants because they're irrelevant to the discussion. No antag will ever want to steal and put loyalty implants to use outside of lings that are good at the game, whereas everyone and their mother wants more guns, meaning you can order the implants, fuck off for a while, then come back and crack those suckers open with your sec buddies because it isn't in the meta to space the implants.

Steelrifles being ordered by a converted/fantastic cargo team, on the other hand, will mean security isn't involved at all unless they see what cargo is doing. They'll just order the things, crack em' open with an emitter, and suddenly be arguably more powerful than security is outside of flashbang spam and server rules.

About wiz and ops, that's why I said it wasn't THAT huge of a problem for them, it's just a minor issue. They can deal with it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:54 am #120094

Loyalty implants are relevent because security very frequently order them at cargo - a lot of them - during team antag modes. Having to get them from cargo is not some insurmountable hurdle - it involves a guy with cargo and armoury access being at cargo.
They can and do the same for guns when needed. This is just a different gun - supposedly to counter certain threats.

And you seem to be missing the fact that they are ALREADY orderable at cargo - I'm simply suggesting sec doesn't have them round start.

Also guncargo gets you banned hella fast.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:33 am #120099

Why not a compromise of making the Auto Rifles start in the armoury but they have no spare magazines at round start, forcing the Warden/HoS to order more ammo in for the armoury if they want to sustain usage of the Rifles during a emergency?

I could put a note in the armoury/Warden's office saying they are running low on X and should order more in when they can.

Might also be a good jump start in getting Sec players to interact with other departments more often for supplies.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:38 am #120120

That is a decent compromise. The ammo can be made in Cargo or Science, quite cheaply. I do not feel any more changes to the weapons themselves are needed.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:22 pm #120283

Steelpoint, decrease the number of mags in the armory to 0. It's ridiculous being able to run around with 20 bullets / mag (compare to the laser gun with half as many hits and generally, lower damage after taking into account higher armor resistance for lasers), and being able to reload in the field without any sort of drawback. You do _not_ need more than 5 bullets to crit most targets, and all lethals, generally, you don't spam down corridors with them. You can knock down 3-4 targets with mediocre armor before needing to reload, 2~ if you go lethals first, AND you get two extra mags.

Then there's talk of re-adding burst with some minor drawback which doesn't do anything to stem the major problems with them. They're flat better than any sort of laser gun so long as you have ammo, and in a sec role, you only need enough to kill a couple downed lings through multiple uses of fleshmeld without needing another mag.

I already told you my more recent thoughts IG. 20 bullets, 20 damage for something that is viable to reload with multiple mags with tiny sprites and is 100% !FREE! at roundstart for four copies, that goes straight through expensive equipment made to force security into melee is insanely overpowered. Lowering the number of mags only fixes a minor part of the problem. They're structurally OP.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:56 am #120309

If I got rid of the extra mags down to 0 and made it you had to order more mags from cargo then I don't see the massive problem.

Just as you can order more mags you can order more lasers or eguns.

Yes you can, if you get someone to hack the autolathe, make more 9mm rounds. But that takes more effort, metal, and reloading your mags from ammo boxes is a bit more time consuming.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:39 am #120379

The server poll is up, I urge you to vote on it.

onleavedontatme · Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:40 am

Steelpoint wrote:if you get someone to hack the autolathe.

I'm pretty sure this is part of round start set up for cargo.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:29 pm #120395

Kor wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:if you get someone to hack the autolathe.
I'm pretty sure this is part of round start set up for cargo.

It is also a normal set up for Science early round, once they have an upgraded R&D set, they typically build an autolathe and hack it. Note that Science can produce rounds for this gun as well, so you have two sources of ammo. (With Science providing the specialty ammo once they get minerals in)

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:11 pm #121036

So, we had this nice poll on the server. What are the results? Will we ever know the results?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:14 am #121094

Poll finishes around Saturday or Sunday, timezones and all.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:59 am #121113

You should really ask mso to put a notification or something in the MOTD - I didn't even know the poll was running.

Also fun fact.

9mm steelrifle mag (20 rounds) costs 4000 metal base to make in a protolathe.
9mm SABR mag (30 rounds, formerly 20, currently 42 because HONK) costs 2000 metal base in the protolathe.
9mm ammobox (30 rounds) costs 30000 metal in an autolathe to make.

For those that don't know, you can freely move bullets between mags and ammoboxes by clicking, so not only are SABR mags the same size as their ammo box, they're also far cheaper then both the ammo box and steelrifle mags.

Basically, if you use a sabr, there is no reason to use ammoboxes ever.
If you use a steelrifle, you can use SABR mags as cheaper ammoboxes.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:19 am #121139

Would a fix to this be to unify 9mm ammo boxes so that both guns took the same one?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:25 am #121140

They already do.

But a SABR mag is functionally identical to an ammo box, for a steelrifle (and much cheaper), and is functionally superior to an ammo box for a SABR (and much cheaper).

Incomptinence · Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:14 am

Between the rwalls on warden side and computers a speedy raider has a fuck load of cover against the warden which I quite like.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:15 am #121182

To be honest the 9mm sabre magazines have always been completely underpriced.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:27 am #121185

Then prehaps this is not the worst time to examine good metal and other mineral costs to produce magazines for the SABR and WT550.

Right now the Auto Rifle mags just cost double what the SABR mags do, but are available from round start.

Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:20 pm

Being able to print out shitloads of magazines works fine for the SABR because the gun itself is super expensive and gated behind a shitload of research, unlike the autorifles, which you get four of round start. Also, unless you make each magazine cost like 30000 metal, it'll be just as easy to print out a bag full of mags with a stack of metal if it costs 4000 metal as if it cost 2000. If you really wanted to take a shot at running around with 10 mags in your backpack, maybe you could make the magazines normal sized? That'd be pretty snowflake though

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:27 pm #121206

Why are all the options on the ingame poll negative.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:29 pm #121210

I'm pretty sure the poll is ranked 1 to 5, with 1 being highly negative and 5 being highly positive.

It should say that on the vote screen.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:35 pm #121211

Steelpoint wrote:I'm pretty sure the poll is ranked 1 to 5, with 1 being highly negative and 5 being highly positive.

It should say that on the vote screen.

I had -5 to 5.

I voted 5 and my vote was registered as -5.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:36 pm #121212

I think the dash is just there cause reasons.

onleavedontatme · Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:52 pm

As much as I've railed against these things, I'm kind nervous about losing them in the current state of changeling.

That and I admit I get a guilty pleasure out of murdering everything with ease.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:54 am #121353

The fleshmend AND armour nerf have already gone through now - only need the engorged ballsack removal pr to go through and it's rosy.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:13 am

lumipharon wrote:The fleshmend AND armour nerf have already gone through now - only need the engorged ballsack removal pr to go through and it's rosy.

i think it's fine now without removing chem glands
just because hating lings is a meme doesn't mean we need to nerf them back into dirt

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:18 am #121369

They got all the effects of engorged BASELINE, there is no reason to still be able to purchase it to double the effects.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:47 am #121374

lumipharon wrote:Okay, we managed to nerf them fairly severely so that they can barely do the sole basic thing that they excel at, SO LET'S NERF THEM MORE1!

I await with baited breath more 5 hour changeling rounds with all the lings dying in 15 minutes sans one that proceeds to do the only viable thing left - shit spiders everywhere.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:11 am #121409

Ok I just got the results of the in game poll. The vote's are, from -5 to 5.

Negative Votes

-5: 27 Votes
-4: 7 Votes
-3: 9 Votes
-2: 13 Votes
-1 6 Votes

Netural Votes

0: 14

Positive Votes

1: 6 Votes
2: 4 Votes
3: 13 Votes
4: 6 Votes
5: 25 Votes

This means the overall average vote was -0.1667, according to Jordie.

So essentially this feature, after well over 110 votes, is very split down the middle.

Here's the paste bin in case I mixed up the values: http://pastebin.com/dAbpcWeF

Your thoughts?

InsaneHyena · Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:16 am

My thoughts? Revert this crap and never add ballistics again. They go against the feel of Nanotrasen and only exist to serve gun fetish of a few sec players.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:52 am #121418

What I do intend to do is remove the excess rifle magazines from the armoury, so you have to order more mags from cargo if you want a excess supply. I'll leave a note for the Warden on that issue.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:55 am #121419

ok but put the note near disposals i tend to get enough clutter on the desk as warden as is

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:43 pm #121427

Well, with such a close decision, the only changes you should make are minor ones. Removing the spare magazines so officers need to come by mining or Science for more seems fair to me, but I am not a Security player, and I have no clue how those guys feel about things.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:56 pm #121430

Gun Hog wrote:Well, with such a close decision, the only changes you should make are minor ones. Removing the spare magazines so officers need to come by mining or Science for more seems fair to me, but I am not a Security player, and I have no clue how those guys feel about things.

As a security player, that seems fine to me. Cargo is a reasonable block on other things, like implants. It might as well be for this.

It is very close, and I'm glad that none of the people going "everyone thinks this" have been proven right.

I really don't give a shit about "the feel of nanotrasen" given it was always possible to make ballistics in science and that the detective had a revolver from roundstart. If anything, it's just that the syndicate has a thing for inconsistent weaponry, be it energy blades, poison darts, taser slugs, or high-powered bullets.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:50 pm #121448

People who talk about 'the feel of Nanotrasen' seems to forget that the detective has a revolver, along with the centcom/ERT/Death Squad commanders all having autorevolvers. Guess we should take away e-swords and shields from the syndicate so they are ballistic only to get the feel right for them too.

That sarcastic point being said, I haven't played sec while these are in but just from watching and such they just act as emergency weapons for sec, which I think is fine form them to have. And some traitors love going for them, since it's just an r-wall into the perma bathroom then another r-wall into the guns.

ABearInTheWoods · Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:36 pm

I honestly think that all of this should be moved to r&d. r&d needs more sec love.

Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:40 am

MrStonedOne wrote:I honestly think that all of this should be moved to r&d. r&d needs more sec love.

does it though
*cough*loyaltypins*cough*

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:08 am #121518

Since I presume that steelrifles will never get reverted, at the very least stop the bloody green light thing from flashing.

It's honestly distracting, and flashing usually indicates something that requires attention - like being out of ammo, not full of it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:19 pm #121556

lumipharon wrote:Since I presume that steelrifles will never get reverted, at the very least stop the bloody green light thing from flashing.

It's honestly distracting, and flashing usually indicates something that requires attention - like being out of ammo, not full of it.

Fair point, I'll leave the blinking for when the ammo is running low and has run out.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:12 pm #122257

When is the ammo in the armory getting a nerf? You said it would be coming Steelpoint, but I can see you playing your huge sec bias here and avoiding it because, you know, apparently having 60 20 damage bullets for free for 4 officers and 40 for the warden/HoS in security is balanced to you. You could kill an entire cult with 60 bullets for chrissake.

Also, apparently our standards for keeping a PR is to have mixed reviews somewhere between 'the next coming of god' and 'worse than Hitler'. Apparently, even if there's a slight majority that says it's shit, we can't revert it or nerf them, because of Steelpoint's bias.

Totally not the second coming of Pap / 10.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:16 pm #122259

The vote was very clearly a case of mixed opinions. The average result is so damn close to 0 (being only 0.1667 off in the negative) that you would be insane to proclaim that as a clear case of the majority wanting a revert.

Also I have not played Sec much in the past week, so don't presume to judge that I, for some reason, am intentionally avoiding my stated changes.

Also if you want a reason its because there's currently several map PR's, including one that touches the armoury, that prevents me from putting up the magazine PR. Once they are merged or closed is when I can put up my PR, since map merge conflicts are a pain to fix.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:34 pm #122269

The rifles are fine balance wise (except for the mentioned ammo). But they just conflict with the Nanotrasen laser theme SO MUCH.

We should just go with the reloadable laser guns.

And Steal please don't pull a Goofball. The trial period was for seeing if it could be merged, not to see if it could be potentially "reverted". There is simply no majority for adding this to the game.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:43 pm #122272

Then its clear there was a miscommunication between my intent for the poll versus your intent.

I asked for the poll to see what people thought off the gun after a week of using them, with myself stating that if there was a clear and significant majority that disliked the guns, that I would remove them.

Considering the poll was right down the middle, with just as many in support as against (to varying degrees) that I settled on removing the most pressing part of the guns, aside from the guns, and remove the excess magazines to put their ammo count on balance with lasers for round start.

Also Nanotrasen has always used ballistics and other non-NT tech. From revolvers, shotguns, grenades, SMG's, energy swords and everything in between.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:02 pm #122284

I see at as because the poll is negative, it should be reverted. Unless that would require another poll with two options (keep or revert) because steelpoint currently sees the current poll as "RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE" where as other people see it as a negative. Just because the number is low, doesn't mean it's still not negative. Either way, ladies and gentleman, expect this to never ever get reverted now.