/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Currently killing yourself at roundstart as an assistant or as an unimportant role is allowed.
If you have a reason to go of course this is fine and can be provided, this is strictly for no reason kill yourself and leave shit. (Leaving or disconnecting is effectively the same thing too here)

IcePacks wrote:add a departures shuttle that lets unimportant (but unessential) spessmen "punch out"

recycle the job, non-standard gear into a lost-and-found, or better, categorized capsules

add fun lore like the ship flying into a blast furnace

then we can talk about banning suishits

That... that actually be a nice idea...
I might try that for a few rounds with admin trickery.

Lost & Found would be abused by greytiders stealing shit. People might not even bother with the shuttle in the first place. Most would rather gib themselves in a hallway. Even if they do it outside the HoP office they still never hand their IDs over to him, so i doubt they would care enough to visit a shuttle. It also does not fix the roundstart part where derps are taking the initial job slots.

Alex Crimson wrote:Lost & Found would be abused by greytiders stealing shit. People might not even bother with the shuttle in the first place. Most would rather gib themselves in a hallway. Even if they do it outside the HoP office they still never hand their IDs over to him, so i doubt they would care enough to visit a shuttle. It also does not fix the roundstart part where derps are taking the initial job slots.

Lost & Found would probably work best if it was in some sort of machine in the relevant head of department's office. It would give heads another task, make them more aware of current staffing, all that sort of thing.

People will still suicide anywhere though, so you'd either need to make the shuttles more attractive or just re-spec it as a machine you drop suicided bodies off at (probably by the morgue or whatever) and get rid of suicide gibbing.

I say machine because it makes both these concepts more simple, but whatever.

IcePacks wrote:add a departures shuttle that lets unimportant (but unessential) spessmen "punch out"

recycle the job, non-standard gear into a lost-and-found, or better, categorized capsules

add fun lore like the ship flying into a blast furnace

then we can talk about banning suishits

If only a certain ID console could already accomplish that without any weird "recycling" going on.

Problem is the "grief lottery" stage of player behavior typically doesn't come into effect until they've played 100+ hours and experienced most/all of the content. That's the thing. It's PLENTY fun to be non-antag until you get burnt out on the massive amount of content this game offers. My behavior was totally different in those first 200-300 hours of SS13. No game should be based around the idea of other people waiting for their "turn" to have fun.

The lottery itself isnt the problem. Its that people are being incredibly selfish and suiciding without a second thought or care that they are taking up jobs slots and ruining the game for others. If they would limit their antag rolling to Assistant-only, then the issue would be fixed.

Technically assistant has limited slots now, i believe

Dorsi, only Pseudo-limited, there are 2 exceptions.

No limit on roundstart Assistants.
After all other jobs are filled, the assistant job slot opens up again.
The limit is only for mid-round when there are still other jobs open. AND I FUCKING HATE IT.

firecage wrote:Dorsi, only Pseudo-limited, there are 2 exceptions.

No limit on roundstart Assistants.
After all other jobs are filled, the assistant job slot opens up again.
The limit is only for mid-round when there are still other jobs open. AND I FUCKING HATE IT.

I thought latejoining there was a flat 5-per-sec-officer limit

AnonymousNow wrote:This has been a problem for years, and is indicative of a severe problem the servers have - muh valids.

People cycle because they need another chance at muh valids. Suiciding at round start is part of that.

Thread necro because it's still a problem (to the point where I was going to make a thread for it) and getting worse. People who NEED to be an antagonist and will take up a job slot just to suicide if they're not are a pain in the arse.

Saying play another game is the type of secret club shit that ruins servers "Why should we have to become better? Just leave." will just encourage people not to try and improve ss13

If you spawn in, even if there was some super interesting shit to do, why would players put any effort in when theres a chance theyll just get murderboned as soon as they start to have fun. This coupled with the fact that shorter rounds is becoming the hot meme means you gamble 45 minutes of time trying to do something time consuming but fun on the chances you're still around to enjoy it at that time.

Heavy interest should be kept in preserving rule 4, however repeated mass murder at round start by antag rollers only serves to make other people sad for literally no reason except seeing them turn horizontal.

If a system was put in place so that RP or even just getting to round end was rewarded, like you get a 1% increased chance of antag if you play a round to completion that stacks until you get antag Im sure people would be much more inclined to play an NPC that gets mercd

IMHO the solution here is make it more fun to be nonantag while lowering the chances that any effort you put in gets snuffed out by the way the game is currently designed and rewarding people for playing the shit role with no features.

All just literally what Im thinking of on the spot so Im sure improvments could be made on these ideas

If you're going to suicide at the roundstart at least have the decency to go the the HoP and turn in your ID. That way no random shitler can get it and the HoP can open up a job slot.

Just literally install a suicide booth that spits out the items at the HOP office machine using telegulag code (if not identical), then incinerates your body.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Just literally install a suicide booth that spits out the items at the HOP office machine using telegulag code (if not identical), then incinerates your body.

because an easier to access incinerator that also teleports objects away is a good idea

add fun lore like the ship flying into a blast furnace

Holy shit, yes.

Qbopper wrote:

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Just literally install a suicide booth that spits out the items at the HOP office machine using telegulag code (if not identical), then incinerates your body.

because an easier to access incinerator that also teleports objects away is a good idea

Only works on active ckeys and sucide verbs for them with a consensual button press that alerts admins, all of the objects are delivered to HOP office in a nice tidy bundle that HOP access is required to interact with.

You're exaggerating it in such a way when we can codify ways to make it not possible to force people to use it. That and you still have the suicide verb for everything else.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:

Qbopper wrote:

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Just literally install a suicide booth that spits out the items at the HOP office machine using telegulag code (if not identical), then incinerates your body.

because an easier to access incinerator that also teleports objects away is a good idea

Only works on active ckeys and sucide verbs for them with a consensual button press that alerts admins, all of the objects are delivered to HOP office in a nice tidy bundle that HOP access is required to interact with.

You're exaggerating it in such a way when we can codify ways to make it not possible to force people to use it. That and you still have the suicide verb for everything else.

that just seems unnecessary at that point

also isn't the problem that people suicide because they wanted antag? I don't think your idea helps to curb that

Maybe this is the kind of problem that can be solved by chucking ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

The notion of a slight, cumulative improvement to next antag rate based on...

- Playing a round to its completion
- Without suiciding
- Without ghosting from a living mob
- Without being killed by self-inflicted injuries

... could work. Maybe. Perhaps.

AnonymousNow wrote:Maybe this is the kind of problem that can be solved by chucking ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

The notion of a slight, cumulative improvement to next antag rate based on...

- Playing a round to its completion
- Without suiciding
- Without ghosting from a living mob
- Without being killed by self-inflicted injuries

... could work. Maybe. Perhaps.

I've also pushed the idea of a reverse antag token: Once issued, the next time you get picked for an antag role, it goes to someone else and the game tells you why. Think of it as a one-time antag ban.

Atlanta-Ned wrote: I've also pushed the idea of a reverse antag token: Once issued, the next time you get picked for an antag role, it goes to someone else and the game tells you why. Think of it as a one-time antag ban.

Inb4 a mulligan count creates a traitorling cultist wizard with 60 tc by everyone's anti antag tokens springing on the same singular person.

AnonymousNow wrote:Maybe this is the kind of problem that can be solved by chucking ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

The notion of a slight, cumulative improvement to next antag rate based on...

- Playing a round to its completion
- Without suiciding
- Without ghosting from a living mob
- Without being killed by self-inflicted injuries

... could work. Maybe. Perhaps.

the second two might be difficult 'cause it's hard to detect in code whether injuries are self-inflicted beyond really obvious things like toolboxing yourself in the face. Otherwise, jumping out an airlock is indistinguishable to being pushed out.
And the no-ghosting thing kinda sucks for people who have been given the casket of amontillado treatment by security.

Screemonster wrote:

AnonymousNow wrote:Maybe this is the kind of problem that can be solved by chucking ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

The notion of a slight, cumulative improvement to next antag rate based on...

- Playing a round to its completion
- Without suiciding
- Without ghosting from a living mob
- Without being killed by self-inflicted injuries

... could work. Maybe. Perhaps.

the second two might be difficult 'cause it's hard to detect in code whether injuries are self-inflicted beyond really obvious things like toolboxing yourself in the face. Otherwise, jumping out an airlock is indistinguishable to being pushed out.
And the no-ghosting thing kinda sucks for people who have been given the casket of amontillado treatment by security.

We could restrict it to escaping with the shuttle. Sure, it does increase the salt caused by murderboners, but A: it gives an incentive to be wary of them, instead of validhunting, and B: it might be the thing that finally makes pointless murderboning unacceptable in the rules.

Fuck off with that Yog shit.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
I've also pushed the idea of a reverse antag token: Once issued, the next time you get picked for an antag role, it goes to someone else and the game tells you why. Think of it as a one-time antag ban.

Can we turn all antag bans into this? Like, for the duration it will still role them, tell them they rolled a mystery antag, but it was given to someone else. It'd be hilarious.

XDTM wrote:

Screemonster wrote:

AnonymousNow wrote:Maybe this is the kind of problem that can be solved by chucking ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

The notion of a slight, cumulative improvement to next antag rate based on...

- Playing a round to its completion
- Without suiciding
- Without ghosting from a living mob
- Without being killed by self-inflicted injuries

... could work. Maybe. Perhaps.

the second two might be difficult 'cause it's hard to detect in code whether injuries are self-inflicted beyond really obvious things like toolboxing yourself in the face. Otherwise, jumping out an airlock is indistinguishable to being pushed out.
And the no-ghosting thing kinda sucks for people who have been given the casket of amontillado treatment by security.

We could restrict it to escaping with the shuttle. Sure, it does increase the salt caused by murderboners, but A: it gives an incentive to be wary of them, instead of validhunting, and B: it might be the thing that finally makes pointless murderboning unacceptable in the rules.

One of the big things about rule 10 is that rule 10 is kinda under the assumption everything will be alright next round. It wouldn't really be ok to just say "well you lose sorry!" when it negatively impacts future rounds.

Not to mention this is really an incentive to murderbone because killing others but living means you've just boosted your chances of antag next round while also bringing everyone else's chances down.

Unless getting antag temporarily lowers/disables your chances of getting antag again the next few rounds.

CandyClown wrote:Unless getting antag temporarily lowers/disables your chances of getting antag again the next few rounds.

But that would lead people to meta "we can probably trust X, he was the traitor last shift"

Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

People would just log out anyways since suicide is now a ban trap or whatever.

obligatory "the solution is to make people not want to suicide at roundstart rather than finding ways to punish it" reply

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Then don't click ready????

D&B wrote:

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Then don't click ready????

And do what, not roll for your antag position?

D&B wrote:

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Then don't click ready????

Ah yes, the fantastic tactic of 'don't play unless you commit to playing a role you don't actually want and won't enjoy or risk fucking the roles you do want' when the problem is 'players don't really want to play certain roles'

How about just accept that this isn't really an issue and that certain people play the game for different reasons? Is it that hard to take a step back and go 'well actually even though I don't mind playing role 'X' a percentage of the player base are here to kill people, for which there is a roll and they will take little to no enjoyment from being railroaded into having to play a dozen other roles they have already played to death?

Why not just open the thunderdome from roundstart and have an option to play TDM if you don't get antag? Does it harm you? Does it cause danger to the station round that already exists? Is the best option really to go 'well you exclusively like eating potato, but because I don't like that you exclusively like eating potato imma make you eat hardtack three of four meals before you get to eat potato, and if you don't like it then don't eat anything, or imma ban you from food'?

I feel at this point the discussion isn't actually about the negative effects of roundstart suicide, which there are few; but rather because you just disapprove of the behaviour, like some sort of weird 2-D slut shaming.

Reece wrote:

D&B wrote:

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Then don't click ready????

Ah yes, the fantastic tactic of 'don't play unless you commit to playing a role you don't actually want and won't enjoy or risk fucking the roles you do want' when the problem is 'players don't really want to play certain roles'

How about just accept that this isn't really an issue and that certain people play the game for different reasons? Is it that hard to take a step back and go 'well actually even though I don't mind playing role 'X' a percentage of the player base are here to kill people, for which there is a roll and they will take little to no enjoyment from being railroaded into having to play a dozen other roles they have already played to death?

Why not just open the thunderdome from roundstart and have an option to play TDM if you don't get antag? Does it harm you? Does it cause danger to the station round that already exists? Is the best option really to go 'well you exclusively like eating potato, but because I don't like that you exclusively like eating potato imma make you eat hardtack three of four meals before you get to eat potato, and if you don't like it then don't eat anything, or imma ban you from food'?

I feel at this point the discussion isn't actually about the negative effects of roundstart suicide, which there are few; but rather because you just disapprove of the behaviour, like some sort of weird 2-D slut shaming.

They're not saying play the whole round through, theyre saying dont fucking suicide as soon as you spawn.

Letting people just play the game to kill people fundamentally shakes what the game is designed around, as well as this entire situation messes with using player count to affect game modes. Cerestation can only happen at certain pops, but if half the crew suicides because they didn't get antag its now not supposed to be in the rotation.

Antagonists cant antagonize without people to be antagonized, if everyone is an antag then there's no one to actually fight except other antags which is boring and if you want that play colonial marines because that's what it is pretty much

IT 100% is about the negative effects of roundstart suicide, things like taking the roles from players who play the game fully, and inflating population count artificially. While people ALSO disapprove of this playstyle that does not discredit the negatives it entails.

Reece wrote:

D&B wrote:

Reece wrote:-snip-

-snip-

Ah yes, the fantastic tactic of 'don't play unless you commit to playing a role you don't actually want and won't enjoy or risk fucking the roles you do want' when the problem is 'players don't really want to play certain roles'

How about just accept that this isn't really an issue and that certain people play the game for different reasons? Is it that hard to take a step back and go 'well actually even though I don't mind playing role 'X' a percentage of the player base are here to kill people, for which there is a roll and they will take little to no enjoyment from being railroaded into having to play a dozen other roles they have already played to death?

Why not just open the thunderdome from roundstart and have an option to play TDM if you don't get antag? Does it harm you? Does it cause danger to the station round that already exists? Is the best option really to go 'well you exclusively like eating potato, but because I don't like that you exclusively like eating potato imma make you eat hardtack three of four meals before you get to eat potato, and if you don't like it then don't eat anything, or imma ban you from food'?

I feel at this point the discussion isn't actually about the negative effects of roundstart suicide, which there are few; but rather because you just disapprove of the behaviour, like some sort of weird 2-D slut shaming.

The problem with that is you're taking away a job that someone else could enjoy. Take genetics or virology for example. If you are rolling for antag but don't get it, and then kill yourself, you're wasting someone's job that they could do. Especially in a role that has a small number of players doing it. Suiciding at roundstart and not even turning in an ID is shit because then no one else can do your job, unless the HoP opens up a slot, or you have multiple people doing the same role. While it isn't a problem for jobs like security, science, or engineering, but for smaller roles that have a limited number of players like genetics, chemistry, or virology, where only one or two people can play, it takes away the opportunity to do those jobs.

I don't think forcing people to play when they don't want to is the right solution, but letting them remove a job from the game at roundstart isn't a great idea either. Make people turn in their IDs at the HoP line and let the HoP open up a job slot. Or there was a suggestion of a suicide box that takes your items and ID and spits it out to the HoP. Either way, let someone else do the job you don't want to do.

Reece wrote:

D&B wrote:

Reece wrote:Penalising people for not playing the game when they don't want to play?
seems a totally good idea.

Then don't click ready????

Ah yes, the fantastic tactic of 'don't play unless you commit to playing a role you don't actually want and won't enjoy or risk fucking the roles you do want' when the problem is 'players don't really want to play certain roles'

The don't set roles you hate as acceptable in your job preferences????

If only there was a way to either be assistant or go back to lobby if you didn't get your preferred job

but dont you guys see?

They want to roll for job slots with access to all the murder tools just in case they're antags so they can use them to super murder the whole crew, but dont want to actually play those roles for anything other than killing everyone like morons

Just set role to "antag priority high" and "disconnect and perma self-ban if role is not available" please.

---

On other servers like /vg/ they pick antag immune ghost roles (vox traders etc) at roundstart if you're not actually interested in playing, so you have something else to do but can interact with the round with absolutely no player rights.

I don't think having ghost role roundstart candidacies would be a bad thing since it would encourage people to ready up and also broaden the list of antags to pool from rather than the people who latejoin especially to steal a job because they fucking hate RNG/meta or observe purely for ghost roles.

Set "Ashwalker", mining golem etc to high, allocates you to a ghost spawner (when availible) and sets all other station jobs to "none".

---

Seperate issue is that we should disable or severely limit the "give random job" setting to literally just service because lack of trained people working on the engine due to inexperienced people being enlisted for it via random roll contributes to so many engineering failures.

"be ghost role if preferences unavailable" would be pretty fuckin' sweet actually.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If only there was a way to either be assistant or go back to lobby if you didn't get your preferred job antag

That would be even better

when you exhaust all the job content and run out of dumb gimmicks to pull so the antag dynamic becomes the only fun thing about the game but ofc validhunting makes people weep and moan so you just keep playing that roulette for traitor every round but then that becomes bannable too

Then don't play for a bit then come back when that stuff is fun for you again so we don't have to more/less force it with an antag ban.

The game not being fun for you after you've nolifed it for literal years is not the admins fault. Stopping you from taking job slots or just playing when you can mess with other people who aren't as burned out is.

How about just don't play

captain sawrge wrote:when you exhaust all the job content and run out of dumb gimmicks to pull so the antag dynamic becomes the only fun thing about the game but ofc validhunting makes people weep and moan so you just keep playing that roulette for traitor every round but then that becomes bannable too

what cobby said

there's a lot you can do in this game, why should other people suffer because the guy who rolls for antag scientist every day doesn't want to try playing a different role for once

you have a point but cmon, this isn't even about validhunting - we punish people for suiciding/ghosting as heads, it's a similar idea (though obviously less important)