/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

So, with a recent ban appeal involving killing a borg for following its laws, I think it's time that we rethink the policy on that. It's realistic and expected that conflict between security and cyborgs should exist- their jobs often directly conflict, especially on chaotic conversion based modes and when lethal force is needed to stop someone.

"As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1." -The Rules

I think that killing a silicon should be accepted as a viable way to stop the silicon from interfering with whatever you are doing that happens to conflict. For example, if it's a rev round and a silicon drags away head revs you are trying to execute, it should be okay to kill the cyborg. The catch is this: You must repair it as soon as possible, or when the situation calms down. This seems fair to me because there's two ways to stop a cyborg without killing it:

1) Lockdown. This is not reasonable normally because you have to ask the RD, and he'll ask why, etc which takes forever. Lockdown is only really useful if you don't know where the borg is and it's acted/acting like a shit and you want to stop it.

2) Chain flash. You can't realistically flash a borg forever and deal with whatever mess the borg made while you're flashing him. Telling them to stop sometimes works but more often than not they just run off or cite law one and keep doing what they're doing.

So updated version:
"As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons without repairing them at the earliest possible time in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1. (You still need a reason to kill one, but as long as you repair it swiftly, it will be treated as critting another human- needs escalation but is okay as long as you heal them.)"

>be me
>home, ready to rest and relax
>play my favourite 2d space terrorism simulator
>pick 'cyborg', which is meant to be a servant role designed around preventing harm so i can instead take the module that engages in combat and conflict
>become immune to a majority of the game's combat tactics by virtue of being a silicon and be unfun for everyone except the supercop who gets to play the beefed up security officer immune to stuns aka secborg
>toe the line constantly as a result of you being the strongest thing in a tight power scale of the games 'meta' due to the nature of silicon laws being subjective due to everyone interpreting them being human at the end of the day
>continually ruin gamemodes due to an overwhelming majority of antags not having tools against you(fuck you I'm ignoring recent things like cheap emp kits and implants and ling aoe emp)
>this leads to my favourite role being removed as a result of being horrific when it comes to the shitstorm it brews of balance, policy discussions, and and admin rulings
>still post petty remarks and creep up in anything silicon related about needing secborgs for being a neutral 3rd party mediator and to buff up ai strength when in every single server and setting secborgs end up acting like security officers on crack
>results in every single silicon related thread even if not on the topic of secborgs to turn into another stupid argument about secborgs and silicon strength that will result in nothing being changed and people being angry because you want to run around and play as a stun immune infinite taser double health security officer immune to all stuns except for flashes and a niche weakness to EMPs

Truly the most intelagent posts on the forums

Though i think the general thread was already discussed on the point of borgs being innocent unless you have an explicitly good reason (lizard being attacked by the AI after you stop a traitor murderboning for killing the traitor) unless i'm wrong then oops.

Dr_bee wrote:there is always the goonstation route. Remove the imperative to act.

Thats not on the table.

Is this another "everyone minimizes the easy options open to nearly everyone for fucking over sillycones in order to paint them as unstoppable god-machines" discussion?

karp that is my favorite post of the year

cedarbridge wrote:Is this another "everyone minimizes the easy options open to nearly everyone for fucking over sillycones in order to paint them as unstoppable god-machines" discussion?

yes

cedarbridge wrote:Is this another "everyone minimizes the easy options open to nearly everyone for fucking over sillycones in order to paint them as unstoppable god-machines" discussion?

It isnt about theorcrafting 1v1 against a secborg if you gather special tools in advance its the 3+ secborgs linked by private channel to the noclip eye in the sky that controls doors/power/comms/atmosphere and are more likely than not working for one group of humans or another who lack silicon weaknesses.

A single borg is obviously not unstoppable but even without near unlimited ranged firepower rounds are often determined by who controls the silicons

Silicons already excel at information and environment control, why do they need to be masters of brute force as well?

I have been summoned

Really fucks me up when I realize how many times I have had this argument please dont remind me

We already have security for the sadistic control freak role for all the people that miss secborgs. If officers being vulnerable to conventional stuns is the issue then just start torrenting methonium doujins whenever you play to throttle your connection so you have ample time to queue up your actions/dodge taser fire/assess dangerous situations

I got a report saying to delete all secborg related things since that's not the topic of the thread but there's way too much of it so just please stop

I think beesting's proposed rule change, as in the opening post of the thread, would probably work fine. Perhaps there could be a clear indicator of some kind when a borg's sufficiently damaged as to be unable to use modules, as a sort of "i'm fucked, please don't murder me thanks", and call making that happen the equivalent of "critting" a borg?

factoryman942 wrote:I think beesting's proposed rule change, as in the opening post of the thread, would probably work fine. Perhaps there could be a clear indicator of some kind when a borg's sufficiently damaged as to be unable to use modules, as a sort of "i'm fucked, please don't murder me thanks", and call making that happen the equivalent of "critting" a borg?

That would actually be cool. I'm aware that borgs eventually can't use modules but there's no good indication like there is crit for humans. This would work really well to help against the problem of borgs being killed for following asimov.

Examine text plus periodic sparking plus oil dripping as indicators?

PKPenguin321 wrote:

factoryman942 wrote:I think beesting's proposed rule change, as in the opening post of the thread, would probably work fine. Perhaps there could be a clear indicator of some kind when a borg's sufficiently damaged as to be unable to use modules, as a sort of "i'm fucked, please don't murder me thanks", and call making that happen the equivalent of "critting" a borg?

That would actually be cool. I'm aware that borgs eventually can't use modules but there's no good indication like there is crit for humans. This would work really well to help against the problem of borgs being killed for following asimov.

More information given to players is ALWAYS a good thing. Good idea!

What about making it so borgs can still move, very, very slowly, while dead. they cant interface with anything, they cant push anyone, cant break pulls. So if you want to keep a borg down for good you can grab it with a pull, get some tools, and rip out of brain or snip the lockdown wire.

I really think this thread has run its course

Anonmare wrote:I really think this thread has run its course

yeah its mostly coding ideas on how to solve the problem, not policy solutions.