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Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:36 am
by onleavedontatme
Bottom post of the previous page:
The current ones seem pretty worthless. Every admin and player thinks it means something else, to the point where someone admins ban you for critting people while other admins will let sec hack off all of a guys limbs for theft.
What does "escalation" mean to you? How do we put it into words better?
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:34 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Without reading prior thread, id say pretty the below scenario applies.
Fistfight/GBH or manhandling = Touching you is fine - touching them back is fine (attempting to push back) - A few friendly swipes of the fist in a playscuffle = But as soon as they draw first blood or your face has about 15 points of damage leading into greivous bodily harm then its actually a fight, if they take your weapon its also a fight to no quarter unless they give up after getting robusted.
Some people are way too touchy, and percieve every bodily interaction to be a fight. If a assistant actively tries to disarm your weapon that can cause bodily harm (stun baton) then you are in your right to harmbaton them a few times as punishment as long as you only lightly bruise them.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:01 am
by oranges
anyway to answer kor's question
No, no-one can
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:40 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Its basically a cry for help at this stage.
You most definitely need to either update the current escalation rules you have or teach admins to stick to concrete rulings of law with no personal allowances.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:12 pm
by calzilla1
I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:16 pm
by Qbopper
calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:24 pm
by calzilla1
Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:28 pm
by Aloraydrel
calzilla1 wrote:Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:29 pm
by IrishWristWatch0
Aloraydrel wrote:calzilla1 wrote:Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:41 pm
by calzilla1
IrishWristWatch0 wrote:Aloraydrel wrote:calzilla1 wrote:Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Admin stupid games get stupid complaints
Play stupid games get SUPAR SERIOUS ADMIN COMPLAIN ASKING WHY YOU INTERFERED IN SOMEONE'S STUPID GAME
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:58 pm
by Jacough
calzilla1 wrote:Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Eh 6/10 bait. A for effort but the contents are way too stupid for anyone to believe you're serious about this
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:14 pm
by calzilla1
Jacough wrote:calzilla1 wrote:Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:I think, if you have causeible evidence to believe that security will kill you when you are arrested, you should be able to kill them back
I don't think including a clause like this is ever a good idea because people will immediately try to use it against the spirit of the rule
Yeah, but one round I was playing as a thug/robber and holding people up with a Sketchin stolen from a traitor's body. Sec started chasing me and the only way I could have gotten away is if I critted/killed one, but I was so afraid of being bwoinked (seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things) they tazed me and killed me. It wasnt a horrible round, I got to be a turkish ambassador (and got killed by the same sec officer, that power tripping no fun nigger)
Eh 6/10 bait. A for effort but the contents are way too stupid for anyone to believe you're serious about this
Not b8 m8, treat sec like anyone thats gonna try and kill ya
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:46 am
by Qbopper
calzilla1 wrote:(seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things)
if it smells like shit check your shoe
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:12 pm
by oranges
FantasticFwoosh wrote:Its basically a cry for help at this stage.
You most definitely need to either update the current escalation rules you have or teach admins to stick to concrete rulings of law with no personal allowances.
It's only game, why you heff to be mad?
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:52 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Qbopper wrote:calzilla1 wrote:(seriously you fuckers bwoink me for the most retarded things)
if it smells-like-shit-check-your-shoe
That's probably the most imaginitive lizard name i've heard yet.
I have a habit of playing stressful games for stupid but gratifying prizes oranges, touche on where is the enthusiasm.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:21 am
by Nilons
Escalation
1: Did they slight me in any way, so much as insulting me over radio
2: Remove from round immediately no prisoners
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:43 am
by imblyings
When i was young and sticky was headmin id watch him break into the armoury as a greyshitter then lead sec on a wild goose chase. However he was a conscientious shitter and never fought back against security. Jack Steinet accepted his eventual death by the hands of security with a grace and humility not seen in his forum posts.
For nonantags who play stupid games i would like to see them accept their stupid prizes in a similar manner, instead of being like the stupit ligger i banned for killing the det and a civilian after looting the captains office.
For he said she said escalation adminning usually goes a few ways. Adminning is also dm'ing and we dont necessairly need specific policy because sometimes its just a case of steering the round back on track by telling the involved parties to drop it and maybe admin heal someone. Things get unfun sometimes and its within the remit of an admin to not go by the rules exactly and instead act like a teacher would, separating people and mediating between fights to make things fun again.
In these cases i think or hope most admins are capable of acting in this role but i understand players still feel lost without rules to follow. Its also hard to codify everything that might happen. The threshold at which something is disproportionate is probably the trickiest bit of rewriting the rules
I think the playerbase might be best served by a set of guidelines, distilled from the gestalt of admin decisions. Guidelines that are not strict lines that cannot be crossed but nevertheless admins can enforce if they feel a player has acted with repeated, or flagrant disregard for the guidelines, or even out of malice.
This is unfortunately complicated because some players are faggots who seek to griff or jump to crit/killing in retaliation after being griffed either because thats the sort of person they are or they realistically cant retaliate without it requiring someone dying.
For the first part im gonna say if you start shit you get hit. Wildly disproportionate retaliation might be looked into but it has to be pretty clearcut like killing someone for disarming them in the hop line without any prior interaction otherwise. This is because the rules cant ever encourage baiting- admins cant be online to catch every dispute so id rather the playerbase live with the fact that if they start shit they will most likely have to accept getting hit. Reasonable exceptions include making genuine efforts to heal or clone the person a startshitter griffs as i dont expect players to not fight back when soneone retaliates. However, healing or cloning someone is not a get out of jail free card. I do not want players who make a habit out of forcing other players temporarily out of the round for little reason.
Some disputes dont have a clear initial aggressor. Rarely is there a neat and equal linear increase in force from both parties. The stories i hear from both sides of an ahelp dont often match up and it is difficult to sort out he said she said personal bias from what actually happened. Players will not mention things some even lie. Some im sure omit things on purpose, only for me to lose all interest in genuinely trying to see if things were justified from their viewpoint when i find out the omitted things. Rarely do players consider the viewpoint of others too. Sometimes this is because they do not have all the information. Other times it is due to a true lack of ability to let it go, to empathize or to understand what it is theyre doing is unreasonable. It can be a mix of things. I would like admins to warn and then ban for the latter. Any guidelines that are written should have something to that effect as well.
The question then shifts to what exactly is unreasonable.
Maybe, and this is essentially what admins do already, the right way is to just trust in the collective though different judgement of their fellow admins and apply their own accumulated sense of right and wrong from years of playing ss13 to new situations as they pop up. All situations are different, we cant expect players to carefully consult the rules before retaliating or whatever, outside of general guidelines like dont be a dick or consider other players or start shit get hit or dont bait. I think it falls to admins to just warn and then ban once enough different admins and admin viewpoints have all agreed upon someone doing wrong.
Tldr i might just nicely write down "dont be a dick and consider other players and start shit get hit and dont bait" on the rules soon
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:44 am
by imblyings
Thanks for reading my tldr i have a purple name so it makes it relevant ta!
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:55 am
by Screemonster
tl;dr "If you go out of your way to get a reaction out of people, take your reaction like a fucking man"
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:48 pm
by Qbopper
was a nice writeup and since you know what the enter key is I actually read it
The "take whatever response is given to you when you know you're being shit" part is pretty good imo
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:52 pm
by tacolizard
/vg/ has good rules. do /vg/ rules.
some good wiki pages are these:
http://ss13.moe/wiki/index.php/A_Crash_ ... oleplaying outlines what the rules should be about enforcing
http://ss13.moe/wiki/index.php/Rules similar to our rules, but a bit more specific. the admins enforce the rules in a different way there too
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:58 pm
by lntigracy
The difference is we don't shit on security or hold people's hands when they start shit.
That and most of the crap admins here err on the side of banning whenever they involve themselves in something, where IC issue actually means something more than "I don't care" on /vg/.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:17 pm
by Nilons
In all seriousness though I think the only way to properly dictate what is proper and not proper escalation is a common law system, where admins rulings set the standard.
What I mean by this is that, and this is just an example for the purposes of common law, say a an admin distributed a 3 day ban for permaing someone who commits a medium crime. That should be written down somewhere and then when admins go forward they know what is expected. When a ruling comes up that has never been dealt with or is not described in the rules it should be up to the admin dealing with the situations discretion to administer a fair punishment. This would create consistency in bans and punishments as "When admin x dealt with player y doing z, player z got 3 days" and not "Admin x dealt with player y differently than player y2". Essentially just keep track of what punishments admins administer or how they deal with situations as they go. A more in depth system of review for these would also need to be put in place but this is just throwing the idea out there.
Pretty sure Oldman touched on this way way back in the thread but I skimmed because I'm in a hurry. If so ignore.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:36 pm
by Grazyn
Nilons wrote:In all seriousness though I think the only way to properly dictate what is proper and not proper escalation is a common law system, where admins rulings set the standard.
What I mean by this is that, and this is just an example for the purposes of common law, say a an admin distributed a 3 day ban for permaing someone who commits a medium crime. That should be written down somewhere and then when admins go forward they know what is expected. When a ruling comes up that has never been dealt with or is not described in the rules it should be up to the admin dealing with the situations discretion to administer a fair punishment. This would create consistency in bans and punishments as "When admin x dealt with player y doing z, player z got 3 days" and not "Admin x dealt with player y differently than player y2". Essentially just keep track of what punishments admins administer or how they deal with situations as they go. A more in depth system of review for these would also need to be put in place but this is just throwing the idea out there.
Pretty sure Oldman touched on this way way back in the thread but I skimmed because I'm in a hurry. If so ignore.
Problem with this is that it reinforces the toxic mindset of "Someone did this shitty thing to me but an admin told me it's ok, so now I'm gonna do the same shitty thing to someone else as soon as I have the chance", something that Oldman was also guilty of. It devolves into a spiral of increasing pettiness as players use "precedents" to behave towards their fellow man in the shittiest way possible that doesn't get them banned.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:48 pm
by Nilons
Grazyn wrote:Nilons wrote:In all seriousness though I think the only way to properly dictate what is proper and not proper escalation is a common law system, where admins rulings set the standard.
What I mean by this is that, and this is just an example for the purposes of common law, say a an admin distributed a 3 day ban for permaing someone who commits a medium crime. That should be written down somewhere and then when admins go forward they know what is expected. When a ruling comes up that has never been dealt with or is not described in the rules it should be up to the admin dealing with the situations discretion to administer a fair punishment. This would create consistency in bans and punishments as "When admin x dealt with player y doing z, player z got 3 days" and not "Admin x dealt with player y differently than player y2". Essentially just keep track of what punishments admins administer or how they deal with situations as they go. A more in depth system of review for these would also need to be put in place but this is just throwing the idea out there.
Pretty sure Oldman touched on this way way back in the thread but I skimmed because I'm in a hurry. If so ignore.
Problem with this is that it reinforces the toxic mindset of "Someone did this shitty thing to me but an admin told me it's ok, so now I'm gonna do the same shitty thing to someone else as soon as I have the chance", something that Oldman was also guilty of. It devolves into a spiral of increasing pettiness as players use "precedents" to behave towards their fellow man in the shittiest way possible that doesn't get them banned.
What I've garnered from you and a lot of other posters is that if we too closely define the line, and take away the blur surrounding it. Shitters will latch on and get as close to it as possible. A possible solution to this would be have a gradient punishment system, so instead of having a concrete -do not fucking do this- have a progressive amounts of fuckery system where you can be warned up to a certain number of times resulting in a ban after too many, (with the implication that these warnings or demerits can be appealed after a time period fitting) I know that admins already do this to a certain extent but if there was a focus put on it there could be an established set of rules and the semi-leeway in either direction. Mostly what I'm seeing is that players are complaining because there's no concrete line so they never know when they'll get in shit, but if there was a concrete line it would be abused heavily by fuckos. I'm of the opinion that if people wanna toe the line ban em but that's not a viable approach here. It's not particularly fair to players who never truly know the rules or what will or won't get them banned. Why should people have to dig through all this muck and figure out exactly how to act for every specific admin because a couple losers have to valid hunt and abuse the system. A way to put the ban hammer to people trying to toe the line as closely as possible without getting them mixed in with honest mistakes or people who are just playing would be great.
Edit: By a number of warnings I mean an allotment where if you're going over it and doing shit admins have told you is not *against the rules* but is still pretty dickish an amount of times impossible to be by accident, like 15 in a month or something, although if this number is almost reached too much like a player hitting 14 every month action should prolly be taken.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:52 pm
by imblyings
We already do a gradient punishment system. It's called notes and bans.
People who toe the line already get tossed.
People who don't really know the rules don't need concrete lines to follow because most of them just get warnings the first few times, judging by the notes I come across.
If a player keeps on getting into a situation where they don't know what the line is they're either very unlucky or the problem is them. Thousands of players know where to draw the line and never get any attention from admins.
That being said, the rules are being changed to guidelines with examples/advice for players to read and enforcement examples/advice for admins to read. No ruleset will ever effectively cover the vast amount of factors a player considers in a situation, much less the factors an admin has to understand when trying to consider the whole picture. I suppose the rules were always guidelines in a sense but hopefully the next iteration of the rules will more closely follow how they are enforced right now as well as hopefully bring together the thought processes of admins when enforcing them.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:04 pm
by lntigracy
Hahahaha I said guidelines were better than hard lines for every situation but they didn't listen
Now look
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:06 pm
by Nilons
imblyings wrote:We already do a gradient punishment system. It's called notes and bans.
People who toe the line already get tossed.
People who don't really know the rules don't need concrete lines to follow because most of them just get warnings the first few times, judging by the notes I come across.
If a player keeps on getting into a situation where they don't know what the line is they're either very unlucky or the problem is them. Thousands of players know where to draw the line and never get any attention from admins.
That being said, the rules are being changed to guidelines with examples/advice for players to read and enforcement examples/advice for admins to read. No ruleset will ever effectively cover the vast amount of factors a player considers in a situation, much less the factors an admin has to understand when trying to consider the whole picture. I suppose the rules were always guidelines in a sense but hopefully the next iteration of the rules will more closely follow how they are enforced right now as well as hopefully bring together the thought processes of admins when enforcing them.
I can see what you mean for the most part here but with people in this thread, who have played enough on the server they give a shit about policy and posting about it, have said they're afraid to fight back against shitters because they don't know what every admin thinks over escalation is. I think a lot of people want more solid lines if only for the admins, because the variance is what bothers people. Myself included. But you did mention that the new rules might bring together the admins on that.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:25 pm
by Qbopper
I'm going to get shit for this from people, admin or otherwise, but I think it might help if we have a sitdown/survey every admin has to participate in where some hypothetical escalation scenarios are presented and it asks "what would you do in this situation/did X respond appropriately/etc."
It wouldn't do anything on its own, obviously, but having some kind of idea as to where all the admins stand could help us reach some kind of solution
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:45 pm
by Nilons
Qbopper wrote:I'm going to get shit for this from people, admin or otherwise, but I think it might help if we have a sitdown/survey every admin has to participate in where some hypothetical escalation scenarios are presented and it asks "what would you do in this situation/did X respond appropriately/etc."
It wouldn't do anything on its own, obviously, but having some kind of idea as to where all the admins stand could help us reach some kind of solution
Thats a fantastic idea
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:50 pm
by PKPenguin321
Hard to make solid rules for this because in a game like this any particular scenario is dictated entirely by context and circumstance
Admins need to be able to see from the point of view of both participants of an IC issue and be able to deem what a reasonable reaction is
If somebody messes with you, what's appropriate to retaliate with depends on what they actually did, and there are so many ways to mess with people in this game it's basically impossible to cover them all
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:54 pm
by Qbopper
I'm not proposing we do my thing and use it to create solid rules we're all "happy" with, I just think if we can all get on the same page first then we can actually decide the best move forward
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:25 pm
by lntigracy
Admins here aren't reasonable so you can't expect reasonable examination from them
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:09 pm
by Qbopper
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:48 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
Today a captain ahelped about being critted by a janitor after he slipped on a wet-floor while giving them drive-by projectile discipline.
On the other hand they took their "If you're going to abuse your crew, be warned they will abuse you back" and backed down.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:15 am
by metacide
Today I got adminbwoinked and told off because, as a warden, I detained and then executed someone. This person was running with a weldertank and welding tool, wearing greytider gear and a jacket and balaclava, a lit welder in their hand and an IED in their pocket. Someone matching their description had welderbomb-IED'd the brig a few minutes before, and many other welderbombs had been set off in the HoP office and elsewhere. There were a large number of greytiders running around attacking sec and dragging weldertanks around.
I was initially told it was unacceptable for me to have executed them, especially without escalating for permission. It later transpired that they had set off welderbombs elsewhere, though not at the brig. They were not an antag.
And here I was thinking randomly welderbombing the station as an assistant wasn't allowed anymore. Here I was also thinking anyone acting like an antag can be treated like an antag - such as by being spaced or executed. It's a shame to see that greytiders appear free to escalate as non-antags and apparently bomb as they please, while also quite able to get security players in trouble by complaining about their IC treatment in adminhelps. This is why by and large it feels like the best move is to ignore bwoinks as security.
This is why, when for example,
J_Mad got a weekban from sec for N2O-internaling IcePacks, the state of our adminning feels pretty disappointing. IcePacks attacked an officer, verbally demanded they "do something" about it, was then brigged for a few minutes and broke out, was then perma'd briefly as no cells were available (gulag tele was broken, gulag shuttle breached) and then broke out again from perma with help from the AI, then attacked the officer another time and tried to choke them out, the officer only being saved by another. And the officer was the one banned for then putting them on N2O internals.
Do any admins have a go at boobs who do this sort of stuff? Does anyone ever get notes / bans for greytiding / attacking sec and crying admin when they go down? It feels a lot like it's just sec that get the rap for this sort of stuff, and as a greytider, anything goes.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:25 am
by onleavedontatme
I know admins laugh it off as me going on as me going on a senile oldfag rant about rules whenever I bring it up but it is crazy that one admin is telling off security for killing welderbombers while other admins will ban for welderbombs going off at all.
I understand the rules will never be exact but we should at least be able to avoid things like this.
Also stop acting as a safety net for ban baiters please.
*As always I am basing this off the forum post and naively assuming all relevant info is contained in it
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:35 am
by onleavedontatme
oranges wrote:anyway to answer kor's question
No, no-one can
Though obviously I failed several times to fix it as well as everyone else who has tried so far so maybe citrus is correct
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:44 am
by bandit
Qbopper wrote:I'm going to get shit for this from people, admin or otherwise, but I think it might help if we have a sitdown/survey every admin has to participate in where some hypothetical escalation scenarios are presented and it asks "what would you do in this situation/did X respond appropriately/etc."
It wouldn't do anything on its own, obviously, but having some kind of idea as to where all the admins stand could help us reach some kind of solution
I'm fine with this as long as it happens in the admin forum because I guarantee if it's public people will check the adminwho to see whether the admins on will let them griff
I mean I'm sure it already happens but why make it easier
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:17 am
by Owegno
Qbopper wrote:I'm going to get shit for this from people, admin or otherwise, but I think it might help if we have a sitdown/survey every admin has to participate in where some hypothetical escalation scenarios are presented and it asks "what would you do in this situation/did X respond appropriately/etc."
It wouldn't do anything on its own, obviously, but having some kind of idea as to where all the admins stand could help us reach some kind of solution
This is a good idea since it would actually allow us to rewrite the escalation rules maybe. One of the reasons I gave up on writing new escalation rules is because only like two people said what they wanted despite me asking in this thread.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:23 am
by PKPenguin321
could you have picked a worse example?
do you really think it is okay to kill somebody permanently for disarming you once when you're not even holding anything?
is this really the example you want to use to show that we're not strict enough on bad escalation?
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:27 am
by Fatal
I always thought the rule "if you fuck with sec for NO GOOD REASON, just for a reaction, and the reaction you get isn't one you like, don't complain" was basically how things were
Why don't we just rule with that regarding this stuff
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:47 am
by D&B
PKPenguin321 wrote:
could you have picked a worse example?
do you really think it is okay to kill somebody permanently for disarming you once when you're not even holding anything?
is this really the example you want to use to show that we're not strict enough on bad escalation?
Do you actively suppress your vision and capabilities to see what really happened and ignore the order on how things devolved or does it happen naturally each time you drag your face away from pax's crotch before you jump to defend him?
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:23 am
by Fatal
The problem I find with that example:
The admin was dealing with the issue, it becomes an OOC issue and not an IC issue (there was another example of this recently where a player ahelped being put in perma, and then got killed when they escalated it further IC, and got told nothing could be done because they escalated it IC, but I can't find the post with it)
The player who ahelped escalated the issue in the JMad - IcePacks situation, and yet, from what I can see, caused the player who got banned to receive a lengthier ban because of their equally escalated response
I'm not defending either side, but it's clearly double standards, I understand you want loose rules and "admin discretion" but at least try and have some cohesion when it comes to the issues like this
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:04 pm
by J_Madison
I'm gonna call this one out because it's easily missed when reading my appeal;
The only reason Pax was killed - or the straw that broke the camel's back - was Danno demanding I release Pax through a Bwoink. This is OOC communication and an order from the admin.
When I arrived at permabrig, he was let out by an AI from his contained cell.
This resulted in Pax managing to slip/table/whatever me, and attempting to choke me to death.
Let me be clear that this is a case of an admin intervening to use OOC communication to demand a security player release someone FAIRLY imprisoned.
Then that prisoner takes the opportunity given to him by using OOC communication (ahelp) to try and kill the person that was ordered by an admin to release them, under "escalation".
Then I was banned for killing him.
If this is acceptable conduct by player, or admin, I refuse to listen to any admin bwoinks demanding I do something.
I think it's pretty clear now the circumstances of my ban being baited. An admin banned me for something he caused. None of it would have happened had he not intervened or demanded that I release the prisoner.
Back on topic:
Escalatation needs to end if an admin intervenes. If an admin intervenes, both sides no matter what, must drop the escalation. Ban whomever escalates first FNR.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:50 pm
by Xhagi
J_Madison wrote:Escalatation needs to end if an admin intervenes. If an admin intervenes, both sides no matter what, must drop the escalation. Ban whomever escalates first FNR.
This. I very much agree with this. Ignoring everything about the ban or appeal, this is actually something we should place to our rules on escalation.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:33 pm
by Qbopper
D&B wrote:Do you actively suppress your vision and capabilities to see what really happened and ignore the order on how things devolved or does it happen naturally each time you drag your face away from pax's crotch before you jump to defend him?
Do you actually believe this will get anyone to take you seriously and do anything other than make people double down when you attack them?
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:44 pm
by D&B
Qbopper wrote:D&B wrote:Do you actively suppress your vision and capabilities to see what really happened and ignore the order on how things devolved or does it happen naturally each time you drag your face away from pax's crotch before you jump to defend him?
Do you actually believe this will get anyone to take you seriously and do anything other than make people double down when you attack them?
If someone across three threads will refuse to acknowledge what really happened and cover their ears and say "lalala escalation didn't happen you just did X" they are not taking what's being discussed seriously and thus don't deserve to be taken seriously as well.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:51 pm
by Qbopper
D&B wrote:Qbopper wrote:D&B wrote:Do you actively suppress your vision and capabilities to see what really happened and ignore the order on how things devolved or does it happen naturally each time you drag your face away from pax's crotch before you jump to defend him?
Do you actually believe this will get anyone to take you seriously and do anything other than make people double down when you attack them?
If someone across three threads will refuse to acknowledge what really happened and cover their ears and say "lalala escalation didn't happen you just did X" they are not taking what's being discussed seriously and thus don't deserve to be taken seriously as well.
Playing the "if you're going to do X than I can do Y" game doesn't convince anyone that X is wrong, though
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:56 pm
by Nilons
Qbopper wrote:D&B wrote:Qbopper wrote:D&B wrote:Do you actively suppress your vision and capabilities to see what really happened and ignore the order on how things devolved or does it happen naturally each time you drag your face away from pax's crotch before you jump to defend him?
Do you actually believe this will get anyone to take you seriously and do anything other than make people double down when you attack them?
If someone across three threads will refuse to acknowledge what really happened and cover their ears and say "lalala escalation didn't happen you just did X" they are not taking what's being discussed seriously and thus don't deserve to be taken seriously as well.
Playing the "if you're going to do X than I can do Y" game doesn't convince anyone that X is wrong, though
Gotta agree with Jmad on this one, pretending two disarms do no harm is intellectually dishonest, disarms count as assault, and being disarmed and pushed over can very easily lead to a dead security officer, maybe he had a baton in his bag, maybe he had an esword in his bag. Saying that he did no harm by disarming someone twice is not exactly true. I don't know why someone who sought out a reaction, got a reaction, then ahelped about how the reaction they got was a little different than what they wanted didnt get a fat play stupid games win stupid prizes from the admin responding. Especially considering Jmads original response, 6 minutes in jail, was reasonable.
Edit: Also why the fuck didn't Pax get a talking to for trying to kill someone an admin had already talked to, and was letting him out. How does listening to an admin and letting someone out of perma when told to make you valid in any way.
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:20 pm
by Qbopper
Nilons wrote:Gotta agree with Jmad on this one, pretending two disarms do no harm is intellectually dishonest, disarms count as assault, and being disarmed and pushed over can very easily lead to a dead security officer, maybe he had a baton in his bag, maybe he had an esword in his bag. Saying that he did no harm by disarming someone twice is not exactly true. I don't know why someone who sought out a reaction, got a reaction, then ahelped about how the reaction they got was a little different than what they wanted didnt get a fat play stupid games win stupid prizes from the admin responding. Especially considering Jmads original response, 6 minutes in jail, was reasonable.
Edit: Also why the fuck didn't Pax get a talking to for trying to kill someone an admin had already talked to, and was letting him out. How does listening to an admin and letting someone out of perma when told to make you valid in any way.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him on the topic, I'm saying that it's fucking moronic to make useless personal jabs at people and expect people who don't agree to take you at all seriously
Is pkp going to "see the light" because D&B said he sucks pax's dick
like, really
Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:41 pm
by oranges
J_Madison wrote:Please ban me at the first available opportunity