/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Swagbringer wrote:Chemistry is currently in consideration of making some minor to major changes in how it operates at the minute with macros and possible medicine removal.

Its hard to talk about changes to medbay when there is no "base" to compare it too.

Playerbase.
Not base level of operations.

Dax Dupont wrote:This whole PR is paprika levels of fuck the player base I do what I want if this dumb shit gets merged.

I think it's unfair to show this kind of malice, jjr has been pretty open about taking feedback for it and it's still only been testmerged so far.

That being said, as per his comment here, I'd again like to reiterate that stasis itself isn't really useful to medbay since it's much quicker to stick someone with epinephrine and putting someone in stasis then taking them out again is slower than simply sticking them with epi and treating them, so I would have to discourage that train of thought.

Sorry I meant base as in Nuke ops and c20r, or Ling and Armblade.

Chemistry with macros and an actual chemist making medicine can singlehandedly supply enough touch medicine to make sleepers pointless. Do we balance on the assumption that chemists will make medicine? Do we make sleeper/cyro changes on the assumuption that chemists will have macros forever (they are removing them roundstart on the github)

All of medbay is so up in the air right now that predicting how it will all turn out is hard to say.

Shaps-cloud wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:This whole PR is paprika levels of fuck the player base I do what I want if this dumb shit gets merged.

I think it's unfair to show this kind of malice, jjr has been pretty open about taking feedback for it and it's still only been testmerged so far.

That being said, as per his comment here, I'd again like to reiterate that stasis itself isn't really useful to medbay since it's much quicker to stick someone with epinephrine and putting someone in stasis then taking them out again is slower than simply sticking them with epi and treating them, so I would have to discourage that train of thought.

Doesn't it halt blood loss?

It halts healing, death. Everything. It's pretty useless and is about the same as the person being dead. But when they go out of stasis they get auto defibbed. The epi-pen is way better.

Lastly, I feel like this PR is trading gameplay features for realism. I get it coders, admins, whatever. You want the grey tide and the shittery to stop, so if you make it so that if you toolbox a guy in the head and they get stuck in medbay for 20 minutes. It'll seem like a much shitty move, right? Well if you nerf medbay, you're gonna have to follow with an antag nerf pretty soon. I mean, on most servers with a slower medbay do they have such monsters like slaughter demons, invincible lings. Or even traitors who set off maxcaps every round? I doubt it, I'm pretty sure it's just set at extended. So, I don't see any real justification in making a game more realistic, when we're here to have fun. Not to play a time-gated waiting simulator. Maybe that's the reason people don't like to die on ss13? If we wanted a more realistic ss13, wouldn't we all just be at a high roleplaying server where all they do is play extended?

Armhulen wrote:

Shaps-cloud wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:This whole PR is paprika levels of fuck the player base I do what I want if this dumb shit gets merged.

I think it's unfair to show this kind of malice, jjr has been pretty open about taking feedback for it and it's still only been testmerged so far.

That being said, as per his comment here, I'd again like to reiterate that stasis itself isn't really useful to medbay since it's much quicker to stick someone with epinephrine and putting someone in stasis then taking them out again is slower than simply sticking them with epi and treating them, so I would have to discourage that train of thought.

Doesn't it halt blood loss?

Yeah but if they're gushing blood that bad you can just gauze them or (preferably) treat them first cause most of their brute is concentrated on one limb which you can patch up with a few brute packs

If anything is going to be used to keep people in stasis, it would make a lot more sense for it to be cryo. In the medbay I envision, I'd like to see cryo used for extreme cases where people need surgery to save them and the surgery bay is full. Stuff you use for minor to moderate injuries should never completely immobilize the patient.

Okay, the amount of talking about major rewrites to medical has me officially spooked. I'll make a post about some easily expandable medical additions I'd be willing to implement regarding making bleeding and burn infections relevant that will give doctors more importance in the crew staying in perfect health without locking them in surgery for the entire shift tomorrow when I don't feel so exhausted. The thought of another goofmed situation where someone tries to rewrite the entire medical system at once, or someone who doesn't play medbay at all writing major changes (especially when said person still thinks medbay is brainless despite these last 3 pages) fills me with an existential dread, and I think that a simple expansion of the status condition function for simple injuries would serve the intended purpose much better.

Shaps-cloud wrote:Okay, the amount of talking about major rewrites to medical has me officially spooked. I'll make a post about some easily expandable medical additions I'd be willing to implement regarding making bleeding and burn infections relevant that will give doctors more importance in the crew staying in perfect health without locking them in surgery for the entire shift tomorrow when I don't feel so exhausted. The thought of another goofmed situation where someone tries to rewrite the entire medical system at once, or someone who doesn't play medbay at all writing major changes (especially when said person still thinks medbay is brainless despite these last 3 pages) fills me with an existential dread, and I think that a simple expansion of the status condition function for simple injuries would serve the intended purpose much better.

I honestly feel like if you did something like that, the coders who don't play would calm there shits for a little bit. But then would attempt to revamp medbay once more because "ree mostly new players play medbay, if we make it harder people will want to play it more right?"

Shaps-cloud wrote:Okay, the amount of talking about major rewrites to medical has me officially spooked. I'll make a post about some easily expandable medical additions I'd be willing to implement regarding making bleeding and burn infections relevant that will give doctors more importance in the crew staying in perfect health without locking them in surgery for the entire shift tomorrow when I don't feel so exhausted. The thought of another goofmed situation where someone tries to rewrite the entire medical system at once, or someone who doesn't play medbay at all writing major changes (especially when said person still thinks medbay is brainless despite these last 3 pages) fills me with an existential dread, and I think that a simple expansion of the status condition function for simple injuries would serve the intended purpose much better.

I don't think medical as a department is in a bad place, I just think the current health system could use some depth. Requiring surgery for severe injuries would not in any way "lock them in surgery for the entire shift". Realistically you'd just clone them if surgery is too slow. You'd still have options.

I get there the PR is coming from, I just think it puts the blame for the issue in the wrong place.

The sleeper change is not the right way to go about giving medical more depth. I think adding more injuries with good cures in medbay, better cures researchable, and ghetto cures able to be found around the station is the best way around this. As of right now, an eleven TC item can take out all of medical on most maps and fuck over the crew for the rest of the round. There's a reason why the shuttle is called ASAP after med's destroyed.

BeeSting12 wrote:The sleeper change is not the right way to go about giving medical more depth. I think adding more injuries with good cures in medbay, better cures researchable, and ghetto cures able to be found around the station is the best way around this. As of right now, an eleven TC item can take out all of medical on most maps and fuck over the crew for the rest of the round. There's a reason why the shuttle is called ASAP after med's destroyed.

Can always do the goonstation thing and make a secondary medbay clinic on the opposite side of the station as medbay. /tg/ sort of already has this with the holodeck but the holodeck is temporary and kinda doesnt have everything you need.

Was changing sprite really necessary?

Can someone please tell me why this has been testmerged for THREE DAYS?

So I've had a few thoughts on this. I think it would be at an acceptable level if there was some kind of slow heal while in the sleeper. Slower than chemicals but fast enough to prevent people from using bruise packs to heal their 2 damage boo boo.

Beesting is bigbrained and I don't think this is the right way to make medical more interesting but I believe if the above was implemented it would at least be acceptable. At the moment I think it's uh, not good.

Rustledjimm wrote:So I've had a few thoughts on this. I think it would be at an acceptable level if there was some kind of slow heal while in the sleeper. Slower than chemicals but fast enough to prevent people from using bruise packs to heal their 2 damage boo boo.

Not gonna lie the first time I started playing and discovered sleepers thats how I thought they worked. I went and laid down in one for like 10 minutes before realizing nothing was happening until someone came by and pushed a button.

Anonmare wrote:Give the MDs a back-area chem office so they aren't beholden to the whims of chemistry to produce what they need. You can gut it out of the patient rooms.

Chemistry can remain the public face it needs to be and they can service the public and assist the doctors as needed, the back-office ensures that there should be at least one method of chemical generation

This.

Ding dong the witch is dead

*looks at roundstart medbay supplies in literally every map, not even including medkits outside of medbay*

*people on here thinking they need chemistry in a game that doesn't even need medical because it's so easy to heal up by literally anyone, yourself included*

Interesting interesting...

Not to mention cryo on top of that.

Cobby wrote:*looks at roundstart medbay supplies in literally every map, not even including medkits outside of medbay*

*people on here thinking they need chemistry in a game that doesn't even need medical because it's so easy to heal up by literally anyone, yourself included*

Interesting interesting...

I remember suggesting cutting down on the amount of basically everything on the station and getting shot down as "rounds are too short"

Cobby wrote:*looks at roundstart medbay supplies in literally every map, not even including medkits outside of medbay*

*people on here thinking they need chemistry in a game that doesn't even need medical because it's so easy to heal up by literally anyone, yourself included*

Interesting interesting...

nice dump post 3 pages into a thread all about how medbay isn't useless and many people enjoy it, good zing

Kor wrote:Not to mention cryo on top of that.

Cryo is slow and inefficient for what sleepers do, I know you've mentioned wanting to make scarcity a thing but this isn't the way to do it as the mountain of feedback has shown

If this isn't part of the way to do it then there is literally no way to do it.

Coming up with a fix for binary infinite/no power sounds like a much better starting point for infinite resources

If medbay can't coordinate using its own medicine without sleepers I don't see how medbay, security, science, and the chef are going to coordinate on power draw or how coders are going to account for that across 5 different maps with populations from 5-100 people.

Making supplies in Medbay scarce by making them dependent on Chemistry just isn't fair. Science is gated by Mining in the same way but unlike Mining, Chemistry has no incentive to make or do anything for the rest of the department. Chemists as a job are fundamentally selfish and in most rounds are a non-factor for medical doctors, preferring to make lube or superpoisons than make the basic set of medical chems that would make this sleeper PR actually interesting.

The players who are interested in helping others need to be the ones making the chems. You cannot put two selfish people in a room and then tell an entire department to rely on them throwing scraps when pestered.

What if sleepers automatically healed people placed in them slowly, healing faster if you're less injured, while always placing patients in stasis? Or what if instead of being a binary INFINITE CHEM vs NO CHEM, sleepers use energy to inject chems at a worse efficiency than chem dispensers make chems?

cameronwoof wrote:Chemists as a job are fundamentally selfish and in most rounds are a non-factor for medical doctors, preferring to make lube or superpoisons than make the basic set of medical chems that would make this sleeper PR actually interesting.

The players who are interested in helping others need to be the ones making the chems. You cannot put two selfish people in a room and then tell an entire department to rely on them throwing scraps when pestered.

Encourage the crew to steal the chem dispensers if they refuse to use them for the good of medbay? Get the CMO/security to fire/arrest chemists who refuse to do their job? (refusing to make chems when medbay needs them as a chemist is dereliction of duty and is against space law) Nerf the deadlier parts of chem so that its less attractive for awful players? Job ban the most selfish chemists? Refusing to improve game systems because some players are selfish, only in it for the valids, and refuse to cooperate with anyone just creates a spiral of zero-rp selfish deathmatch players playing a game balanced around zero-rp selfish deathmatches.

cameronwoof wrote:Making supplies in Medbay scarce by making them dependent on Chemistry just isn't fair. Science is gated by Mining in the same way but unlike Mining, Chemistry has no incentive to make or do anything for the rest of the department. Chemists as a job are fundamentally selfish and in most rounds are a non-factor for medical doctors, preferring to make lube or superpoisons than make the basic set of medical chems that would make this sleeper PR actually interesting.

The players who are interested in helping others need to be the ones making the chems. You cannot put two selfish people in a room and then tell an entire department to rely on them throwing scraps when pestered.

Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

Kor wrote:

cameronwoof wrote:Making supplies in Medbay scarce by making them dependent on Chemistry just isn't fair. Science is gated by Mining in the same way but unlike Mining, Chemistry has no incentive to make or do anything for the rest of the department. Chemists as a job are fundamentally selfish and in most rounds are a non-factor for medical doctors, preferring to make lube or superpoisons than make the basic set of medical chems that would make this sleeper PR actually interesting.

The players who are interested in helping others need to be the ones making the chems. You cannot put two selfish people in a room and then tell an entire department to rely on them throwing scraps when pestered.

Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

The question at this point should be why is chemist its own job instead of just being part of medical doctor, to which there are no good answers.

If this change goes through it will hurt at first as it does with all changes but it will lead to chemistry self policing itself into attracting players interested in making mixes for medbay.

You shouldn't prevent nor deny changes just because there's only death mixers working on the department now. The players and others who interact with them will make their lives living hell and sooner or later end up jobbanned for not doing their job properly/increasing body counts instead of helping the department they signed up for. Just like rule changes, the playerbase should, and in this case, would adapt eventually.

cameronwoof wrote:The question at this point should be why is chemist its own job instead of just being part of medical doctor, to which there are no good answers.

If we removed the chemist role the people who play chemist just to fuck about with chems and ignore medbay would still exist, but they would roll medic for the chem dispenser access. Still, I don't really have a lot of helpful suggestions on how to fix medbay culture, D&B is likely right that it'll hurt at first before players adapt to the new meta. Personally as a assistant/engineer I mostly ignore medical. It's the place I go to for advanced medical issues like radiation poisoning or limb loss. The stasis effect of sleepers doesn't sound too useful over just handling the problem, with any luck sleepers won't turn into the new way incompetent medics can kill you like cryo pods.

D&B wrote:If this change goes through it will hurt at first as it does with all changes but it will lead to chemistry self policing itself into attracting players interested in making mixes for medbay.

You shouldn't prevent nor deny changes just because there's only death mixers working on the department now. The players and others who interact with them will make their lives living hell and sooner or later end up jobbanned for not doing their job properly/increasing body counts instead of helping the department they signed up for. Just like rule changes, the playerbase should, and in this case, would adapt eventually.

Might need to nerf death mixes, at least for a little while to get rid of the death mix players.

There's no need because they will eventually be booted out flby medbay players/admins or lynched and banned altogether.

Same thing as engineering engine change. Give them time to adjust to the change and you'll see the shitters slide out due to the players self policing themselves. Chemists will need to make an effort to actually make their death chems and keep up with medicine production and having a death chem on you won't be an instant death sentence since it could be proven you were making medicine.

LifeReign wrote:What if sleepers automatically healed people placed in them slowly, healing faster if you're less injured, while always placing patients in stasis? Or what if instead of being a binary INFINITE CHEM vs NO CHEM, sleepers use energy to inject chems at a worse efficiency than chem dispensers make chems?

Then sleepers would be literally cryo.

make the idea that shaps put forward and then this proposal won't make me want to quit playing medical

Kor wrote:Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

Toxins?

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

Toxins?

Add to this that the reason everyone expects firebombs and acid sprays is that our antag-focused policy and design puts a sign over chemistry that says "high gearcheck potential" so people are drawn to it to weaponize rather than medicate.

Why do we keep trying to resolve bigger issues with useless fixes that do nothing but serve as a detriment to the game? First engineering gets a hugbox engine, now medbay gets a nerf to one of the only reasons to go there instead of just slapping on a bruise pack.

If this PR was paired with a few others that actually tried to make medbay more interesting I could get behind it in theory, but the idea behind this seems to be "if we keep nerfing things eventually they'll HAVE to go to medbay to heal!". Like what's even the benefit of sleepers now over literally just a beaker and syringe? Both require a doctor, both require a beaker of healing meds, but the syringe can be used on you anywhere not just medbay and doesn't consume power.

Nobody thought this PR through.

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

Toxins?

Legacy at this point lets be honest

Kor wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:Why do we have a civillian/non antag Chemistry job at all if we are operating under the assumption they will never do anything except build firebombs and acid spray?

Toxins?

Legacy at this point lets be honest

noone wants to admit it not even me until now but kors right here

I wish I knew of this thread earlier. Before I read it, I was going to make stasis beds after the freeze that are separate machines from sleepers, to implement robustin's suggestion, while leaving sleepers intact, then after stasis beds get merged, I would try to change how sleepers work, either replacing them, or nerfing their generation speed. After reading this thread, I still want to do the above, but now I'm rather cautious.

My primary goal is to make medical dependant on station resources, so that they won't function well if the resources are choked. I consider the main resource lines for medical to be chemistry, cargo, and hydroponics. The sleeper change prevented you from using things like styptic patches, gauze, and ointment, because the patient wasn't exposed, so it heavily encouraged chem use, this made chemistry appear as the only supply line.

Shaps said that stasis isn't any more useful than epinephrine, which is likely true in most cases. The primary reason for stasis was because of the infinite chem removal, if you don't have the right chems or healing available, you could put a patient in stasis until you do. At the least, it's an alternative option.

It seems like the change made high levels of patients really difficult to deal with. Based off of that, this kind of change (my new plan) requires other changes to go along with it.

The fix could be as simple as mapping more than two stasis beds

JJRcop wrote:The fix could be as simple as mapping more than two stasis beds

Or players can make their own as needed

Cobby wrote:

JJRcop wrote:The fix could be as simple as mapping more than two stasis beds

Or players can make their own as needed

WOAH WRONGTHINKING

just so my post doesn't get deleted every map has been made with having every single material in excess from roundstart so this is a great change but people really really hate it

To throw out an unpopular opinion that kicks against the grain, I honestly don't think adding resource restrictions would make this more fun. Not being able to do your job because someone else isn't doing their job isn't fun, and sure you can try to complain and get someone else to do it, but then the round ends an hour later and you have to roll the dice to see if your co-workers decide to actually do their jobs, just to see if you can or cannot do the same things you would have done otherwise.

Again

And again

And again


If we were still a smaller server and you could actually hold people who don't do their jobs accountable, and admins banned people who suicide or ghost or walk away as chemists/botanists/any resource providing job then sure, maybe you could make it work and it'd make for some fun scenarios. But until people put the effort to finish up planetstation and there's an efficient pipeline that makes departmental cooperation reliable and fun, I don't see any value in it.

Consider what resource management actually adds in practice before going balls deep.

Like, imagine if security had to get new handcuffs grown from botany after every arrest or engineering had to order new gloves after every door they hacked, does that really enhance the jobs?

Armhulen wrote:

Cobby wrote:

JJRcop wrote:The fix could be as simple as mapping more than two stasis beds

Or players can make their own as needed

WOAH WRONGTHINKING

just so my post doesn't get deleted every map has been made with having every single material in excess from roundstart so this is a great change but people really really hate it

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=14254
We had that thread a few months ago and it got screeched at.