Heads of Staff and Security: They're a fucking joke

[Psyentific]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I don't know how I'd feel about this. It shouldn't be the armor that makes the man.

I just wish I saw less HoS's go straight for hulk the moment it was out.

Personally I would be all for upping the energy protection of Armour, and the HoS's Armour.

The reason Ablative is so dominant is that, despite the stun rework, SS13 combat is still stun-based. That is, a Security Officer and an Assistant have exactly the same staying power; Whoever gets tased first, loses. Whoever bops who with a stunprod first, wins. Most armor provides damage reduction - Damage reduction means shit-all if somebody is actively trying to fight you, and doublefuck-all if you're stunned. In terms of meaningful protection, everything except Ablative and Shield might as well be a fashion statement.
Helmet/Armor protects you from being toolboxed. The problem is, toolboxing is the finish, not the fight. The follow-up, not the deciding moment.

If there's some way to implement stun resistance, be it armor soaking some stuns altogether, armor reducing overall stun time, whatever you want, it should do that. Damage reduction means fuckall when getting hit is what counts.

The reason HoS's beeline for Hulk is because Hulk provided complete immunity to all forms of knockdown. A stun will neutralize a combatant in one hit, compared to a lasgun's five, a toolbox/egun/welder/saw's seven...you get the idea. As long as stuns neutralize a combatant faster than lethals, stuns will be the deciding factor in combat and the primary weapon in anybody's arsenal.

[Malkevin]

Security should get Zap guns from Stargate.

One shot stuns
Two KO
Three kill

[paprika]

Energy armor value reduces stun from all energy-based stun weaponry. Batons do not affect it IIRC.

Most armors reduce stun, provided you're hit in the area the armor is covering.

[Steelpoint]

All armour, afaik, only protects for 10 energy. So essentially you'll be down for one less second.

So 10 seconds to 9 seconds.

The only exceptions are the Ablative Armour which blocks for 50 (5 seconds), the Captains Space Suit which blocks for 25 (7.5 Seconds), the Nuke Ops RIG/Syndi Space Suit and the Ninja suit blocks for 15 energy (8.5 Seconds) and the Death Squad Armour which blocks for 20 (8 Seconds).

As I said, I would be interested in a protection increase. But that's a item up for debate.

[paprika]

I don't think the best method of killing security should be tasing them. You should have to beat them to death in bloody riot. But the more you up baseline armor values the more the [power creep intensifies] and the more dipshits take security and powergame, or take bartender/HoP and powergame. Never forget who has access to armor, sec checkpoint especially. Normal sec armor isn't THAT good to justify raiding the checkpoint for it and running around in it, for example.

[Steelpoint]

Its all down to a balancing act really.

I would be interested in a way so that some stun prod wielding assistant can't instantly strip a Officer of their stuff in several seconds. Its not uncommon for me to wander into maint seconds after a call for help to find a pile of Sec equipment strewn about and a naked officer. I would like to see the HoS's armour beefed up in energy protection however. The HoS is meant to be the 'boss' of Security, but he's as easy to kill as any officer once stunned.

HOWEVER, lets not forget that buffs to Security in armour will also buff antags (Mainly Nuke Ops, tators with Sec access, and maybe Wiz/Ninja) to a extent in stun combat as well.

This thing's gonna need more opinions. I can forsee the concern that buffing HoS armour may encourage more idiots to take the slot however.

[Malkevin]

Pressing resist should interrupt stripping attempts, even whilst stunned - but not cuffed

[Reimoo]

HOWEVER, lets not forget that buffs to Security in armour will also buff antags (Mainly Nuke Ops, tators with Sec access, and maybe Wiz/Ninja) to a extent in stun combat as well.

But that's good. Sec needs buffs because right now it's already difficult to deal with the disgruntled greytider. This should not be the case. Officers right now are pushovers even to nonantags and this is what gives them that free weapon dispenser feel rather than an actual crime deterrent feel. If sec gets buffed and antags get buffed accordingly, that would solve our greytider problem (and, in turn, security problem) completely.

[paprika]

Pressing resist should interrupt stripping attempts, even whilst stunned - but not cuffed

This, the resist button needs more functionality.

[Psyentific]

HOWEVER, lets not forget that buffs to Security in armour will also buff antags (Mainly Nuke Ops, tators with Sec access, and maybe Wiz/Ninja) to a extent in stun combat as well.

But that's good. Sec needs buffs because right now it's already difficult to deal with the disgruntled greytider. This should not be the case. Officers right now are pushovers even to nonantags and this is what gives them that free weapon dispenser feel rather than an actual crime deterrent feel. If sec gets buffed and antags get buffed accordingly, that would solve our greytider problem (and, in turn, security problem) completely.

So, make antags more powerful to discourage civilians from going for him, then make security more powerful to make them properly equipped to deal with them. I like that.

How do we do it? What, exactly, do we give antags to make stunprod cablecuff assistanting anywhere from 'bad idea' to 'suicidal'?

[Reimoo]

More fancy gadgets that separates them from the standard greyshirt with a stunprod and cablecuffs, for starters.

Also, one taser shot should not be a game ender for an antag, likewise for a security officer. One taser shot, should, however, be able to put a greytider down.

I would suggest making the current traitor items we have actually useful, and add more items that help evade capture instead of adding more weapons. Chameleon projector could use a buff. Implants could also use a HUD element so you actually remember that you bought an implant would be cool too.

[Psyentific]

More fancy gadgets that separates them from the standard greyshirt with a stunprod and cablecuffs, for starters.

Also, one taser shot should not be a game ender for an antag, likewise for a security officer. One taser shot, should, however, be able to put a greytider down.

I would suggest making the current traitor items we have actually useful, and add more items that help evade capture instead of adding more weapons. Chameleon projector could use a buff. Implants could also use a HUD element so you actually remember that you bought an implant would be cool too.

Freedom implant down to 1TC? Cham-proj down to 3(2?)TC?

[Raven776]

Freedom implants are robust as shit. I'd like to see them used more often though...

And uplink implants are better than they sound as well if you actually remember to use one before doing anything openly traitorous or murderous.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

This, flashes are lame.

They're fine most of the time. They fail not nearly enough for it to be a reason not to play heads if you wanted to.

Pressing resist should interrupt stripping attempts, even whilst stunned - but not cuffed

Actually I was thinking of making melee armor value add more time to stripping that particular armor piece.

[Incomptinence]

The flash only makes sense in medical. I mean engineers/atmostechs need and have ample flash protection, scientists and roboticists do similar hell they even make it in gas mask form. There is a department head with logical weaponry for a flash protected department, cargo is full of flash protection and the hop has an egun.


Is the QM spawning with shades on an indication they should be tase'd and lase'd ASAP?
A question for the ages.

[Steelpoint]

The flash is only really useful for the CMO.

A telescopic baton for all other heads (CMO, RD and CE) would be a good move. Considering that a simple pair of sunglasses defeats a flash, they may need something a little better.

To be frank, if your going to try and kill a head of staff, they should be able to put up a somewhat more decent fight than the average crew member. Though I would keep a Flash in their personal locker and spawn them with the baton.

[Arete]

What kind of non-stealable toys could heads (and maybe security) be given?

Biometrics like DNA locks (which exist on mechs) and fingerprint scanners could always be a thing, and also give changelings another level of believability when transforming.
The question is where would this apply?

I made a thread for another possibility here.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Er, I have no idea why you assume that head will need flash to only defend from people of their department, but whatever. Most of the station doesn't have flash protection. Only QM, two engineers and one atmos tech have flash protection by default, not including security.

[Cipher3]

Er, I have no idea why you assume that head will need flash to only defend from people of their department, but whatever.

Then what's the basic assumption behind heads having flashes like they do now? The idea is basic defense.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

I beg your pardon? I do not understand the question.

[Cipher3]

The idea that heads need protection isn't a new thought that came from this thread, they're already equipped with flashes for that purpose.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

What does that have to do with what I said? I said that flashes aren't as bad as people claim them to be.

[Cipher3]

Er, I have no idea why you assume that head will need flash to only defend from people of their department, but whatever.

You appeared to be questioning the necessity of a head having self defense.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Um, where

[callanrockslol]

CMO doesn't actually need an item, the hypospray is basically the most versatile object on the station, you can already heal people ridiculously well and almost instantly disable any human attacker in the game, along with all the handy drugs you can inject to people in the hallways to help them along

[lumipharon]

Hardsuits etc will block the hypo, so you can't rush ops with neuro/beepsky sadly.

Flashes work on borgs, which is rather significant, but they burn out, and heads don't normally have cuffs. Batons are neat for laying the smack down, especially if they have departmental minions to help them deal with the disgrunted pleb/greytider/antag. Also extending your baton is just fun.

[bandit]

CMO doesn't actually need an item, the hypospray is basically the most versatile object on the station, you can already heal people ridiculously well and almost instantly disable any human attacker in the game, along with all the handy drugs you can inject to people in the hallways to help them along

not true, the chloral nerf plus the hardsuit buff means that the hypospray is 100% useless

[ExplosiveCrate]

>instant delivery of neurotoxin to grayshirts is useless

[Cipher3]

Also extending your baton is just fun.

This. This is the only reason you should need. The feel, the sound, the general sensation of ability to whip greyshirts ruthlessly down and out of your department...

[paprika]

I might port the baton over for heads of staff, we'll see. It can be abused to fuck and back but the stun time on it is sooo low. Like not long enough to cuff someone low. I got some other projects in the mix but I doubt the baton in general will make people play head of staff tho.

[Raven776]

Its lowness is the only reason it's useful. Might want to fix it stunning borgs though.

[Incomptinence]

Well really glad about the telescopic batons. Even if they can't make arrests being able to hold someone down reliably gives a reason to not be stuffed with and if command has not completely broken down you can have your underlings restrain the idiot.

[Malkevin]

Cheridan updated:
Flash mechanics changed. Instead of a knockdown effect, it will cause a stumbling effect. This includes area-flashing. The five-use-per-minute limit has been removed. "Synthetic" flashes made in the protolathe are now normal flashes.

[Steelpoint]

"Stumbling effect"

Welp, flashes are now officially useless. Good job.

Crap edit, please tell me this does not effect Cyborgs.

[Incomptinence]

Area flashing does not quite mean flashbangs I think it means activating the flash in your hand. So you can basically chase down people without flash protection and hamper them into not escaping, if the flash does not burn out. It is gonna burn out. Would also apply to the portable flasher.

Well at least I hope it does not apply to flash bangs, flash bangs are the long shot the last thing making 9+ random goobers in a pack a mildly beatable force.

[paprika]

I think the flash should also slow people down because people just spam WASD.

[Malkevin]

Flashbangs and portaflashers and wall flashers still knock down.

Change only changed hand flashers

[cedarbridge]

It is gonna burn out.

It actually feels like hand flashes are a lot less durable than they were previously too.

[callanrockslol]

> flashes are now actually useless
> beating people into crit is the only way to stop them fucking with you

Good job Cheridan

[Preamble]

I wouldn't be so quick to write off flashes. The stumbling effect applies to the AOE flash, so they are great for taking on large groups of poorly equipped people. Flash + cryosting is a very robust combination, and gives lings a pretty good ability to murderbone if they can grab the flash from the sec checkpoint.

[ColonicAcid]

I'd rather see an assistant whitelist before this.

And then we get HoSs who grab instead of pull ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You deal with that shit, being robust doesn't make you good at heads, that's retarded talk.
You could be robust as fuck but have the social skills of an aspergic cucumber, and while I appreciate the fact that you want your HoS to be Judge Dredd I would rather have one that can communicate and deliver orders to his inferiors. As HoS I generally don't run into cases with my E-gun out and bomb defused CT win. No, I tell my officers to get there, if they need backup then I go in. The best HoS in my case are ones that aren't anal about having all the criminals and ones that actually communicate, adding a whitelist on account of how robust you are means the upper case I put earlier is the type of people we'll have as HoS.

[Malkevin]

A good leader knows the types and qualities of men that he commands.

Which why I'll bark an order and run to the location too, because I expect Sec Officers to be incompetent shits that'll be stunned and cuffed with their own equipment.

[Raven776]

When I go warden, HoS, or any other head, I just try to make sure my subordinates have a few good laughs.

Call the detective a loose cannon, commend the most lazy security officer on his good work patrolling the bar and taking a nap, and make sure your MDs always have something to do by chloraling anyone that rushes into throw their friend in a sleeper.

[Scott]

I'd rather see an assistant whitelist before this.

And then we get HoSs who grab instead of pull ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You deal with that shit, being robust doesn't make you good at heads

Yes it does. Heads are leading departments, they should know what they're doing.

[ColonicAcid]

Yep okay your points are completely disregarded.

[cedarbridge]

I'd rather see an assistant whitelist before this.

And then we get HoSs who grab instead of pull ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You deal with that shit, being robust doesn't make you good at heads, that's retarded talk.
You could be robust as fuck but have the social skills of an aspergic cucumber, and while I appreciate the fact that you want your HoS to be Judge Dredd I would rather have one that can communicate and deliver orders to his inferiors. As HoS I generally don't run into cases with my E-gun out and bomb defused CT win. No, I tell my officers to get there, if they need backup then I go in. The best HoS in my case are ones that aren't anal about having all the criminals and ones that actually communicate, adding a whitelist on account of how robust you are means the upper case I put earlier is the type of people we'll have as HoS.

There is a certain level beyond the pale though. I've lost track of the number of RD players that stab borgs with screwdrivers trying to change a battery. The same RD players that couldn't tell you how many borgs there are on the station without consulting a console or who are the last to know the AI is subverted/malf. There's a certain above-average competency that's generally expected from a Head of Staff. That's why he's the head of the department and not the other guy. Leadership skills are obviously a requirement also, but a capacity for delegation is not the be-all-end-all of Head roles.

[paprika]

>being robust doesn't make you good at heads

Into the trash it goes, classic 2m dead heads of staff during rev rounds nothing special

[Kuraudo]

Cheridan updated:
Flash mechanics changed. Instead of a knockdown effect, it will cause a stumbling effect. This includes area-flashing. The five-use-per-minute limit has been removed. "Synthetic" flashes made in the protolathe are now normal flashes.

A normal day in TG.

[Scott]

No maymays in my thread please.

[Cheridan]

Except it's not even a nerf. Area flashing is now more effective, you can use it to disable someone running away before following up with a baton. It can also be used as a mini-flashbang, disorienting a group so they don't sax away with the guy you're trying to arrest.
Why the hell do you want multiple items that do the same thing? Heads and security both have batons if you want a single-target melee range stunner.