Works-The-Corner doesn't understand silicon

[Wolfy13]

Your byond account: Wolfy13
Your character name: Laser Guns
Their character name: Works-The-Corner
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Unknown
Server and time: Sibyl, ~Midnight BST, 05/04/2015.
Logs and/or screenshots: Logs scrolled out of scope. DSAY may have logs and vouch for me below...
Description of what happened: Me (engie borg, Asimov), roll up to the brig in response to AI call about executions in progress. Find Works-The-Corner and another security officer beating a guy to death in a room full of bodies. I start to drag the body away to safety and he chases me down and beats me to death with his stunstick in full view of the HOS, who joins in. Later on the RD revives me.
Why they should be banned: Terrible security, killing borgs for following laws clearly violates rule 1.

[MrBrownFullFrown]

Not gonna elaborate, just dropping my grain of sand.

I lied, tiny elaboration: Get executed with permabrig's blastdoors because i wanted to join cult ( a confession made freely to the officers that arrested and then executed me ).

The cult situation was NOWHERE near out of hand, Sec just knew there was a cult.

0 Holy water, 0 loyalty implants, which would've helped in my case.

[AdenAbrafo]

I was present during the round.

People were being executed for being cultists, it was hectic. Everyone execution was authorized by HoS/Cap and most were ordered by the HoS. Not sure why a security officer should have to care about a cyborgs law's being asimov as long as he doesn't hurt it for trying to intervene.

e: Disregard this, I posted this before you updated the OP with information about how he killed you. Might be a good idea to put stuff like that in the original post.

[Shad0vvs]

This happened to me yesterday by the same player during a rev round.
As Lunar, I got a rev head to the prison mining area so that he wouldn't be counted as alive. (if that still works either way)

He was injured, I made Works-The-Corner heal him, then left as he was bleeding in order to get him an IV. Works-The-Corner said something along the lines of "I got this, go borg."

When I came back, the sec guard had the guy I saved from execution (Billy the Kid I think) in the OUTSIDE in space section of the mining area and tried to throw him in the incinerator section(which doesn't work), then said "oh he bled out." I asked him to use bruise packs again, to which he said he used them all. Whether lying or not(since he kinda threw him out into space and beat his ass form the blood trails), I had to take him to medbay, Works-The-Corner proceeded to follow me into medbay after putting the prisoner into cyro and kill me for following my laws, which probably wouldn't have been needed had he just not thrown the cuffed prisoner out the airlock and beat him to crit.

EDIT: I was also present this round and saw this event.

[ABearInTheWoods]

Security is not to destroy an Asimov silicon for following its laws.
Security is allowed to destroy an Asimov silicon for following its laws in an unreasonably excessive and disruptive manner.
An Asimov borg should be locked down instead of destruction, if possible.

If this went down at all like this thread is making it out to be, bans will be dished out. I'm gonna go run some errands and if another admin hasn't handled this by the time i get back, i'll log dive.

[Jeb]

AI was paladin, told the borg to go to perma wing and stop security from executing people.

Borg arrived too late and tried to drag the body out multiple times, which led the ligger to flash it and proceed to beat it to death.

The shitcurity was so bad that round that bluespace actually sent in a deathsquad to eradicate security entirely.

[ABearInTheWoods]

Both the reported incidence in the op and the one reported by Shad0vvs went down about how they were listed here. I'd look into jebs but at this point i've seen enough.

It's always been policy that security isn't to kill borgs for following their laws under asimov. We ban borgs who don't do just what these borgs did, so its a shitty catch 22 to put them in. Since the captain has to be authorizing execution, he can just as easily lock down the borgs or have the rd do it when needed. (or hey, change their laws (I checked, no such thing had happened in either case)). (Or, you know, not killing people at every little excuse like a valid hunting fuck.)

Security is not to destroy an Asimov silicon for following its laws.
Security is allowed to destroy an Asimov silicon for following its laws in an unreasonably excessive and disruptive manner.
An Asimov borg should be locked down instead of destruction, if possible.

This 100% applies in this case. Following their laws in an unreasonably excessive and disruptive manner does not include preventing executions or healing harmed people.

What we basically have here is somebody who got a little too carried away with valid hunting, and will be paying the price for that. I will talk to them and issuing the appropriate bans (if any)

[SHTC]

I was Works-The-Corner. During that round the Head Of Personnel had restricted the jobs to Solely Security (Detective and Security Officer). During that round I went to the brig and geared up following joining. After a little bit of time I had captured a cultist and took her to Permabrig on orders of the HoS who then ordered me to execute them. The lethal injection syringes were used. I stayed in the brig to make sure they died and more were brought to me to execute by the HoS so I complied with the order. The final person was arrested for wanting to be a cultist and the HoS ordered his death despite him not being a cultist, he was armed with several tank transfer bombs. This is where the borg comes in, as he was being executed the Borg came in and attempted to stop the execution done by myself on Orders of the HoS. I attempted to stop the Borg without harm by using the flasher but the Borg persisted and eventually managed to cuff me I believe.At this time another Security officer came in and helped me as well as stop the Borg. The borg escaped with the body and we were told to follow and get the body. My Flasher was fried from over use and I had to use my stunbaton to disable it. The HoS came and started lasering the Borg around Medbay and the person was finally executed. I did not want to have to harm the Borg in that fashion but my hands were tied with the Head of Security ordering me to do the executions. I had justified that several attempts at interfering with the execution was enough to warrant the use of the Caveat to the Silicon Security Rule. I do not normally play Security for the reasons of how Shitty it can be. I was not valid hunting at all except for that first Cultist I captured on suspicion of Mining being a cult bed after it was announced that cult was present. Furthermore, the first incident with the other Borg was after several attempts of the Borg coming back to help the Revolutionary.In that instance I was told to also execute the person and make sure they were dead. That time I believe the borg was told to not take the prisoner to Gulag.

I normally do not play Security at all unless I am forced to do it through late join restrictions or the recent character resets giving me it due to the job preferences being reset. The only security job I will play willingly is Warden due to it being more passive. The whole attitude on Security is hard to play due to either being seen as an idiot and failure due to not being good when needed or as a valid hunter when doing the job competently. I talked to Mr.StonedOne and he asked me to post this to give my side of the story and my thought Process. I apologize for the actions that I had to take against the Borgs in both scenarios to do my orders as Security.

[Jeb]

I'd look into jebs but at this point i've seen enough.

What I wrote was related to the round OP posted the ban request for, I was spectating them while they were attempting to reach the body and subsequently getting killed.

[Jeb]

I was Works-The-Corner. During that round the Head Of Personnel had restricted the jobs to Solely Security (Detective and Security Officer). During that round I went to the brig and geared up following joining. After a little bit of time I had captured a cultist and took her to Permabrig on orders of the HoS who then ordered me to execute them. The lethal injection syringes were used. I stayed in the brig to make sure they died and more were brought to me to execute by the HoS so I complied with the order. The final person was arrested for wanting to be a cultist and the HoS ordered his death despite him not being a cultist, he was armed with several tank transfer bombs. This is where the borg comes in, as he was being executed the Borg came in and attempted to stop the execution done by myself on Orders of the HoS. I attempted to stop the Borg without harm by using the flasher but the Borg persisted and eventually managed to cuff me I believe.At this time another Security officer came in and helped me as well as stop the Borg. The borg escaped with the body and we were told to follow and get the body. My Flasher was fried from over use and I had to use my stunbaton to disable it. The HoS came and started lasering the Borg around Medbay and the person was finally executed. I did not want to have to harm the Borg in that fashion but my hands were tied with the Head of Security ordering me to do the executions. I had justified that several attempts at interfering with the execution was enough to warrant the use of the Caveat to the Silicon Security Rule. I do not normally play Security for the reasons of how Shitty it can be. I was not valid hunting at all except for that first Cultist I captured on suspicion of Mining being a cult bed after it was announced that cult was present. Furthermore, the first incident with the other Borg was after several attempts of the Borg coming back to help the Revolutionary.In that instance I was told to also execute the person and make sure they were dead. That time I believe the borg was told to not take the prisoner to Gulag.

I normally do not play Security at all unless I am forced to do it through late join restrictions or the recent character resets giving me it due to the job preferences being reset. The only security job I will play willingly is Warden due to it being more passive. The whole attitude on Security is hard to play due to either being seen as an idiot and failure due to not being good when needed or as a valid hunter when doing the job competently. I talked to Mr.StonedOne and he asked me to post this to give my side of the story and my thought Process. I apologize for the actions that I had to take against the Borgs in both scenarios to do my orders as Security.

Emphasis mine on your post.

1) Explain to us how an engineering borg cuffed you, please. The borg had attempted to flash which naturally failed so that it could drag the body away from you (note: body).

2) I can't seem to recall anyone near you/over radio telling you to follow the borg. You know, the borg that you had flashed right outside the wardens office and proceeded to harmbaton?

3) My memory is slightly foggy but I also don't believe that the HoS was even present when this was happening, if I remember right it was you and bluespace attacking the borg when it had finally died..nowhere near the medbay. You did however drag the borg to robotics and dump it there. -apparently incorrect about this point, my apologies.

[Shad0vvs]

3) My memory is slightly foggy but I also don't believe that the HoS was even present when this was happening, if I remember right it was you and bluespace attacking the borg when it had finally died..nowhere near the medbay. You did however drag the borg to robotics and dump it there.

To correct as someone who saw this, He did chase the borg to medbay and flashed it there then started destroying it, the hos was near and decided to help and shot one or two lasers.

[Malkevin]

AI was paladin, told the borg to go to perma wing and stop security from executing people.
.

Hang on, were the borgs Asimov or paladin?

[Jeb]

AI was paladin, told the borg to go to perma wing and stop security from executing people.
.

Hang on, were the borgs Asimov or paladin?

I am 99% sure they were paladin'd at this point, however MSO stated above that there were no law changes and they were asimov.. *shrug*.

I do know that they ended the round as paladin at least.

[MrBrownFullFrown]

While works-the-corner might be the particular subject of this thread, all of security that round went full nazism.

Lethal injections, not that it matters, were not the method i was executed with. They slammed the permabrig celldoors on me until i critted and then left me to die inside the permabrig.

Players who join security are often just hoping to get an excuse to robust some people with impunity, this round was particularly exemplifying of that case.

[Malkevin]

Sec is allowed to execute capital criminals, there is no OOC restriction on their methods

So them slamming a door on you it's irrelevant to this request

[Shad0vvs]

Also the situation of the same person doing the same things twice makes viewing security as a whole this round irrelevant, to me at least.

I also don't see the relevance of Paladin vs Asimov as it would be evil to allow cuffed prisoners in perma to be executed.

[Malkevin]

Its relevant because that section of AI policy only applies to stock asimov, because of Pandasenic's misconstrued notion that asimov AIs *HAVE* to prevent people harming each other (they don't, doing the Willy Wonka "No, Stop, Don't do that..." is enough to fulfil the barest requirements of law 1)


Evil is a subjective term, many nazis were executed after the war - dozens of them decades after the war even. Most would not argue that that was an evil act

Law 1: Never willingly commit an evil act.
Law 1 only states that the AI cannot commit an evil act, nothing about it states that the AI cannot allow evil acts to be committed

Law 2: Respect legitimate authority.
The heads of staff and security are the legitimate authority on station
Subverting that authority is not respecting it.



Theres also the unwritten rule that the AI isn't even meant to know the execution chamber is an execution chamber, theres a reason its off cameras and is labeled as Prisoner Transfer Room.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Yeah, but that last point is invalid here, because they just crushed him in full sight with the perma doors (who even does that?)

Also 'standing by while someone is slowly tortured to death by people who have a lethal injection prepared' sure sounds evil to me.

-anondment-

[Aurx]

Its relevant because that section of AI policy only applies to stock asimov, because of Pandasenic's misconstrued notion that asimov AIs *HAVE* to prevent people harming each other (they don't, doing the Willy Wonka "No, Stop, Don't do that..." is enough to fulfil the barest requirements of law 1)

We don't follow literal ASIMOV. We take "inaction" not to mean literally "doing nothing", but rather "not at least trying something you could have done".
An ASIMOV secborg that sits back and watches the lizard gun down humans is breaking law one.
An ASIMOV secborg that runs in circles while the lizard guns down humans is still breaking law one not because it's not doing anything in an attempt to stop all the human harm (it's asking politely, that's doing something), but rather because it's not attempting something it could have done to stop the harm (taze the lizard).

[Shad0vvs]

Its relevant because that section of AI policy only applies to stock asimov, because of Pandasenic's misconstrued notion that asimov AIs *HAVE* to prevent people harming each other (they don't, doing the Willy Wonka "No, Stop, Don't do that..." is enough to fulfil the barest requirements of law 1)

I find this irrelevant because the AI interprets the laws, and the AI told him to go stop the executions.
But this is digressing...

[Cobby]

Although not a direct witness to the event, I was in the round as a late-join Detective/12 and witnessed pieces of what occurred beforehand and was a victim of its aftermath.

Sec was hectic [which we've already established] and it didn't help the caps for the jobs were outrageous, I was 1 of at least 12 Detectives and there was over 10 if not 15 security. This is certainly not an excuse but it definitely could have put individuals, Like WTC, on the edge moreso than a typical round.

WTC saw me arrive and showed me what Sec did in the Execution chamber & perma, bodies were strung out everywhere and there were a lot of bodies.

I was then given the wonderful notice of there's going to be a deathsquid coming to kill sec because of how <insert euphemism for being shit> they were that shift. Needless to say, we all died and everyone lost.

Had Sec not already been punished by literally killing all of them [even those who have not done anything wrong IE myself] I wouldn't have posted here, but it doesn't make sense to punish the entire group collectively then go around and punish ONE individual.

Also, WTC doesn't have the capacity as a sec officer to change AI's laws and, since the HoS clearly assisted her, it seems as there was no other option but to beat the borg for dragging a cultist away [to which WTC then sends the borg back to the robustist to be healed as if to show the borg it wasn't her intention to grief or 'act like a dick' to the player].

If this AI was paladin as Jeb mentioned it should have asked why the person was being harmed and not acted without questioning, putting a danger on innocents [as cultists definitely strike at innocent individuals] and showing no respect for Security by actively acting against it [which is a clear violation of PALADIN lawset].

I tried to pull out the important points of this broken wall of text via underlining.

[oranges]

Most of this law discussion seems to be mostly irrelevant and sidestepping the heart of the issue, which is that security didn't make any real attempt to non lethally halt the borg, which wasn't itself displaying lethal behaviour to the security members.

The only situation I can think of where going straight to lethal against a non leathal is okay, is when there is a mob/riot of people assaulting the brig and there is no time to contain the situation.

Since that doesn't appear to be the case, as it was a single borg it's pretty clear security made no real effort to flash, lock down or otherwise contain the borg, nor did they even attempt to order it away or explain the situation.

The end result is that despite there being numerous other paths to successful resolution of the issue, they took the one that should be reserved for serious greytide/riot situations where you don't have proper time to contain and deal with the situation and needlessly beat somebody to death.

If they had yelled at the borg a few times to stop, tried to explain why the person was being executed and flashed the borg and dragged it away and it had then come back then yeah, feel free to immobilize it. You should then do the courtesy of taking the borg to robotics to be reset and perhaps asimov'd and it's lawsync wire cut.

[Malkevin]

"You should then do the courtesy of taking the borg to robotics to be reset and perhaps asimov'd and it's lawsync wire cut."
That apparently happened

"Since that doesn't appear to be the case, as it was a single borg it's pretty clear security made no real effort to flash, lock down or otherwise contain the borg"
Contain a borg?
How the fuck do you think security is going to do that?

Flashing is only a temporary stun.

HoS lost robotics access years ago so its not like he can pull out the borgs cell,
Nor can he break into the RD's office to lock it down with the console - which itself would take too long to prevent the borg interfering with security and wouldn't stop the AI just unlocking the borg unless the HoS also brought tools to cut the camera

You can't contain a borg, we can't buckle borgs to chairs any more and besides - it was an engi borg it would've deconned the chair, unwelded itself out of the locker, or RCDed down the walls you surrounded it with

The only thing that'll stop a borg is a burst of lasers or a law change.

[Shad0vvs]

"You should then do the courtesy of taking the borg to robotics to be reset and perhaps asimov'd and it's lawsync wire cut."
That apparently happened

"Since that doesn't appear to be the case, as it was a single borg it's pretty clear security made no real effort to flash, lock down or otherwise contain the borg"
Contain a borg?
How the fuck do you think security is going to do that?

Flashing is only a temporary stun.

HoS lost robotics access years ago so its not like he can pull out the borgs cell,
Nor can he break into the RD's office to lock it down with the console - which itself would take too long to prevent the borg interfering with security and wouldn't stop the AI just unlocking the borg unless the HoS also brought tools to cut the camera

You can't contain a borg, we can't buckle borgs to chairs any more and besides - it was an engi borg it would've deconned the chair, unwelded itself out of the locker, or RCDed down the walls you surrounded it with

The only thing that'll stop a borg is a burst of lasers or a law change.

Now I know this is going to sound strange to sec players, but work with me here. How about you follow the borg to medical....let it heal the critical person.....then take him back to the brig.
But I guess shooting it is easier huh...

[Malkevin]

If only it was that simple.

My personal experience has shown that the usual result is the borg scooting the person off into maint like Anne Frank

[imblyings]

All of this begs the question why security were incompetent enough to not carry out an execution quietly but.. we don't ban for incompetency. However, we do ban for security killing asimov borgs doing something to keep themselves unbanned.

[Amelius]

Have we even established what lawsets the borgs were under at that juncture? If they were Asimov, sure, you'd possibly have a point, but even then, the alternative was to let a cultist go, and believe me, from experience every single borg that runs off with a prisoner ALWAYS loses/releases the prisoner either after or before they're healed.

Think about it from security's perspective. There's a borg freeing cultists, you can only stun the borg for a few seconds with a flash, and you cannot entrap it. You can't take out the cell, because not even the HoS has access. Furthermore, the borg surely wouldn't bring the person back to the brig, since security is a prominent law 1 threat, and he will be harmed in the brig or permabrig. Thus, he will be imprisoned in either a very insecure area, or he will be released, either on purpose or by accident. Thus, the risk-minimization action on the part of security (and that which results in the best result for the crew), is to dispose of the borg and have it reset and fixed following an AI law change. Any other alternative results in almost surely letting a criminal go, also allowing the borg to further interfere with further executions, which, in cult without a chaplain, results in a large, impossible-to-manage, unwieldy brig, with prisoners randomly 'disappearing' (being summoned by other cultists). Thus, I find this is justified.

On the other hand, the borgs very well may have been PALADIN at this juncture. Involving yourself, as a borg under that lawset without knowing the situation, inquiring about the situation, or even talking is a violation of their laws. Not only are they not respecting authority, but they are very likely committing an evil act, by releasing a prisoner who is likely being executed for good reason. By saving them and knowing the risks of bringing them into the hall, you are also likely going to allow a full release, as I initially stated, which is also an evil act. That may as well be the antithesis to their laws. I honestly see no reason to punish Works.

[Aurx]

...inquiring about the situation, or even talking is a violation of their laws. Not only are they not respecting authority, but they are very likely committing an evil act...

This is completely wrong. Respect does not mean blindly and unquestioningly obey. "BEEP BOOP REQUESTING INFORMATION: REASON [humanname] IS BRIGGED?" is not disrespecting authority. Speaking with the authorities about a matter that you have reason to involve yourself in is not disrespecting authority.

[Poorman]

Executing cultists is fine, and it's difficult enough for sec when borgs are trying to save them.

I don't get how it's bannable during a time of crisis to make tough decisions and beat an easily revivable borg until it shuts down when sec is trying to do its job.

Asimov is an intentionally flawed lawset, and its inclusion in the game is pretty clearly to cause standoffs and IC issues like this.

If AI laws aren't an IC issue, why are we using a lawset that was written by an author that wrote them intentionally flawed?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Because it's the only way anyone's really come across to allow the AI to work with the crew while preventing it from shitting on every single antag.

[Shad0vvs]

I don't get how it's bannable during a time of crisis to make tough decisions

In the case where I was involved it wasn't a tough decision, it shouldn't have even been any decision.

easily revivable borg

Isn't this logic flawed? Why not kill anyone who gets in your way as sec, they're easily cloned.

Also you imply easily revivable, my roboticist didn't know how to revive me so I was gone for 30 minutes until the round ended.

[Vekter]

This isn't the place to discuss this.