Is a security officer allowed to hold you in front of the tram as an alternative punishment to a brigging?

[Metek]

I realize the question is immensely specific but, I had a disagreement with someone about whether or not it would violate any of the security policies so I'm asking; without the leave of the Captain or the Head of Security, is a security officer allowed to arrest you then hold you in front of the tram so that you get struck by the tram, as a form of punishment?

[MooCow12]

I, too, am profoundly retarded and unable to give a definite "No"

Technically being dead/crit is its own brig sentence because you're out of the round for an x period of time.

But i'm pretty sure those punishments arn't allowed on the principle that a brig timer is reliable while the time it takes for you to be recovered isn't.

You are also punishing the medical staff with another body to fix

Not to mention ALL of your items can be looted by anyone, while in the brig they are a lot safer.

I dont know i can only find reasons not to do it other than "haha funny"



Also if it becomes normal it might make the server that its practiced on feel NRP.

[Metek]

Tram can also decapitate.

[Isratosh]

if you first blew them up with a welding tank, then yes sure you're acting like an antagonist and deserve whatever comes for you, cruel and unusual punishment included

[Metek]

I was too vindictive in retaliating against a Sec Officer for goading me after I had gotten stuck in a room with no way out. I'm not posting a ban appeal about the dayban I got for the welding tank thing. I'm asking, in policy, if the officer is then justified to hold me in front of the tram. So, what I'm gathering is; if they're retaliating against you for overescalation, it's ok for them to use the tram to possibly round remove you instead of brigging you.

[NoxVS]

There's nothing special about the tram to demand special policy. If security has a valid reason to inflict the penalty of being hit by it on you then there's no reason why they can't use it. If they don't have a valid reason then there's no reason why they can use it. The tram itself is utterly irrelevant.

[Stabbystab]

I always like sec offs who don’t just leave someone in brig or gulag and instead get creative or personal with punishments. Once I slipped a secoff so he senteanced me to be slipped on soap 20 times, I think the tram if you are given medical aid after is completely fine as a punishment.

[TheRex9001]

There's nothing special about the tram to demand special policy. If security has a valid reason to inflict the penalty of being hit by it on you then there's no reason why they can't use it. If they don't have a valid reason then there's no reason why they can use it. The tram itself is utterly irrelevant.

Yea, like most things its down to IC justification, I don't have an interest in giving a blanket yes or no to being allowed to tram a criminal.

[Metek]

There's nothing special about the tram to demand special policy.

Possible decapitation. Massive quantity of level 2 and 3 wounds almost guaranteed. No guarantee of your body landing somewhere visible.

There's nothing special about the tram to demand special policy. If security has a valid reason to inflict the penalty of being hit by it on you then there's no reason why they can't use it. If they don't have a valid reason then there's no reason why they can use it. The tram itself is utterly irrelevant.

Yea, like most things its down to IC justification, I don't have an interest in giving a blanket yes or no to being allowed to tram a criminal.

The entire point is to find out where OOC administrative security policy intersects with "IC justification". That seems like a cop out.

[Metek]

you are given medical aid after is completely fine as a punishment.

Assume no, you are hit with the tram and subsequently left to thug it out under the tender mercy of fate.

[Metek]

If security has a valid reason to inflict the penalty of being hit by it on you then there's no reason why they can't use it. If they don't have a valid reason then there's no reason why they can use it

What are the valid reasons that a security officer would be excused to subject you to being hit by the tram? And to avoid focusing too narrowly on the tram as a factor in this let me rephrase;

What are the valid reasons for a security officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy?

[massa]

Punishments usually fit the crime.

Cut and dry, or criminal behavior gets brig time, gets put on the books, especially things that have charges associated (assaulting an officer, grand theft, etc.). But, fuckery begets fuckery, and sec actually love fuckfuck games.

Many cops I've seen tend to favor other forms of Peacekeeping in the face of certain kinds of shittery as an (actually favorable) alternative to an excessive brig sentence. Corporal punishment IS an option. My favorite is baseball bats to break legs. in lieu of a 7+ minute brig sentence, you get to crawl to medbay and fix your legs, and maybe uncuff yourself if you were truly awful. Certain people learn from shaming and maiming more than time-out, which they play candy crush for the stay of. I reserve this for people I could throw the book at but they're not necessarily actually a problem for the crew, and they need to settle down. The answer to rowdiness is excessive, precise, controlled violence.

As I attempt to follow space law, which in 14 years I haven't read, if you request a timed sentence as the baseball bat is winding up, you betcha. The bat is likely an alternative to a long sentence or perma. I've been wanting to make use of exile implants and the mass driver for the truly unbearable, but haven't had the chance.

What are the valid reasons for a security officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy?

- Non antagonist did stupid bullshit/assisted antagonist in combat/emergency (tried to steal my gun or intefered while I was engaging a wizard, cult, romerol zombies or managing some related ordeal).
- Just trying to jack my shit in a hallway will get you Rehabilitated with the bat if you're aggressive enough about it. If you steal a stun baton, always expect to get lethaled.
- IC escalated riots. When greys throw IEDs and tip vending machines and break windows outside brig, that bed was very deliberately made.
- Any red alert or delta fuckery.
- Extreme and grand sabotage.
- A million other nuanced situations.

Or, in other words, when you deserve it lmao.

[iain0]

Yeah, not sure this thread is going anywhere, there is no universal answer to such a question that contains no details.

Antag on LRP? Sure. Antag on MRP that's valid for execution - probably fine? Random non antag, good question, what did non antag do to sec to make them want to kill them?

And that's just starters before getting into any details. It's all in the justification and how the ruleset handles criminals and appropriate sentences.

It's a reasonably significant event I guess, but again for a non antag raises that question of what happened prior to get to that point?



Policy doesn't touch such depths, thats on the admins to figure out, and I don't really see any proposals here either.

[Metek]

I was going off the forum tagline "ask and discuss game policy and conduct". The intent is to ask when this game conduct is appropriately covered by any current policy.

[Metek]

And that's just starters before getting into any details. It's all in the justification and how the ruleset handles criminals and appropriate sentences.

It's a reasonably significant event I guess, but again for a non antag raises that question of what happened prior to get to that point?



Policy doesn't touch such depths

So this feels like bait to lock the thread? So just lock it? Why the song and dance? Just lock the motherfucker, instead of asking for more details to then deign as "too in depth" for policy.

[TheRex9001]

Really there isn’t much discussion to be had because like Massa put it, it is justified ”when you deserve it lmao.”. Any deeper answer doesn’t seem very productive to me, since I don’t really want to have a checkbox for it, like rule 4 doesn’t say ”Acting like an antag is defined as:” for a good reason, context matters too much for it to be dumbed down to a binary

[Metek]

Alright issue settled as "we'll know it when we see it", apparently

[britgrenadier1]

Alright issue settled as "we'll know it when we see it", apparently

That really is the answer though, we have appeals and stuff to iron out edge cases. Plus frankly I just think it’s funny to tram people who are tiding. My other favorite nonstandard punishment is having them hit a vending machine with a bat. 1 hit for every minute they would have been brigged. I call it the RNG punishment

[Stabbystab]

you are given medical aid after is completely fine as a punishment.

Assume no, you are hit with the tram and subsequently left to thug it out under the tender mercy of fate.

(DEPENDS ON THE CRIME) cause tram can put people into crit, the secoff should in my mind do the minimum of checking to see if your in crit and if you are in crit he should toss you into medbay. Once he does that the punishment is over and the secoff can leave he doesn’t have to fully babysit your recovery just make sure your in med with doctors or staff around.

[Jacquerel]

Tram can also decapitate.

for the record im like 90% sure the tram can only decapitate you if it's emagged or if you get supremely unlucky and are pinball slung into a vending machine
the former is therefore caused by antagonist action and the latter is funny so it should be allowed

edit: it also decapitates you if you are tied to the tracks but i figured that isn't the case here as it said "held in front of"

[NoxVS]

What are the valid reasons that a security officer would be excused to subject you to being hit by the tram? And to avoid focusing too narrowly on the tram as a factor in this let me rephrase;

What are the valid reasons for a security officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy?

A valid reason for an officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy, is that you have committed a crime which allows them to leave you delimbed, decapitated, almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after you have been decisively subdued and are at their mercy.

The tram is wholly irrelevant because methods don't matter anywhere near as much as outcome. Security can have you be hit by the tram the same way they can give you a lethal injection, mass driver you into space, tie you to a pipe in maintenance and then request a MULEbot be sent your way, build a guillotine and hold a beheading in the courtroom (Adult tickets to witness the execution only 30 Cr! Kids can attend for 15!), throw you over the railing into a gorilla infested room, set you adrift in the deep end of the pool and give you a viking funeral, drop a piano on your head, have your organs donated to medical while you're still using them, etc. The outcome here is as you described above, that's all that matters.

[massa]

The tram is wholly irrelevant because methods don't matter anywhere near as much as outcome. Security can have you be hit by the tram the same way they can give you a lethal injection, mass driver you into space, tie you to a pipe in maintenance and then request a MULEbot be sent your way, build a guillotine and hold a beheading in the courtroom (Adult tickets to witness the execution only 30 Cr! Kids can attend for 15!), throw you over the railing into a gorilla infested room, set you adrift in the deep end of the pool and give you a viking funeral, drop a piano on your head, have your organs donated to medical while you're still using them, etc. The outcome here is as you described above, that's all that matters.

God these are some seriously good ones, either these are all from memory or you're very creative.

Best idea was viewing tickets!

[britgrenadier1]

What are the valid reasons that a security officer would be excused to subject you to being hit by the tram? And to avoid focusing too narrowly on the tram as a factor in this let me rephrase;

What are the valid reasons for a security officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy?

A valid reason for an officer to roll the dice on you being delimbed, possibly decapitated, and almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after they have decisively subdued you and have you totally at their mercy, is that you have committed a crime which allows them to leave you delimbed, decapitated, almost certainly in critical condition and/or dead, after you have been decisively subdued and are at their mercy.

The tram is wholly irrelevant because methods don't matter anywhere near as much as outcome. Security can have you be hit by the tram the same way they can give you a lethal injection, mass driver you into space, tie you to a pipe in maintenance and then request a MULEbot be sent your way, build a guillotine and hold a beheading in the courtroom (Adult tickets to witness the execution only 30 Cr! Kids can attend for 15!), throw you over the railing into a gorilla infested room, set you adrift in the deep end of the pool and give you a viking funeral, drop a piano on your head, have your organs donated to medical while you're still using them, etc. The outcome here is as you described above, that's all that matters.

Definitely going to be stealing death by mulebot

[iain0]

I didn't close it before because I was just giving my personal take on the matter.

*puts on headmin hat*
But now I'm here to be a party pooper, this thread seems to have run its course, the general case depends entirely on context, and individual context would be a matter for appeals or complaints if there is uncertainty about the applicability. The details will largely land under escalation, acting like an antag, or suitable equivalent sentence.