"use stun batong instead"

[FlapjackKong]

BYOND account: flapjackshrek

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason: Lung punched a Mime into near critical to subdue them after they fire-axed windows in Research as a Security Officer. Was told to use items like stun-batongs first instead of resorting to lung punching at the outset.
Time ban was placed: 2025-03-02 10:50:23
Server you were playing on when banned: man
Round ID in which ban was placed: 249794

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(X) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: The warden lung punch is a nonlethal takedown just like the batong and can be used just like a batong to take someone down. When you lung punch, it takes your air away and puts you into a crit state for a bit. Then they regain the air and get up after a bit. It is a stun and a batong would do the same thing.

[DrAmazing343]

Hi! So, I understand the point of view that the lung punch is like a stun, but as I explained in the ahelp, it's not very good roleplay to go out the gate throwing punches at people to subdue them as Sec unless it's necessary.

In the incident in question, I mostly just have trouble seeing how it benefits the server roleplay-wise to go straight to fists instead of using the litany of other less violent tools that Sec has. For clarity, I've dug logs surrounding, mildly abridged:

Code: Select all

[2025-03-02 10:22:42.974] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the fire axe (Wielded) [He did this a lot, this was the reason for the arrest]
[2025-03-02 10:22:50.780] GAME-SAY: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) "oh you fuck" [Sci employee sees, begins to flash]
[2025-03-02 10:22:54.083] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash
[2025-03-02 10:22:55.637] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash
[2025-03-02 10:23:02.699] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash 
[2025-03-02 10:22:54.636] GAME-SAY: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) "The hell"
[2025-03-02 10:23:04.596] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 83.3) [This is where you come in, until...]
[2025-03-02 10:23:07.823] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 73.3)
[2025-03-02 10:23:10.355] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 63.3)
[2025-03-02 10:23:15.557] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 44.3)
[2025-03-02 10:23:17.257] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) lost consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 41.3) [The mime loses consciousness, and the Sci employee says to a nearby Cyborg...]
[2025-03-02 10:23:29.214] GAME-SAY: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) "stop the seccie from killing the mime if you can"
[2025-03-02 10:23:29.215] GAME-SAY: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) (binary) "Stop the seccie from killing the mime if you can"
[2025-03-02 10:23:31.301] GAME-EMOTE: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) gasps silently!
[2025-03-02 10:23:33.998] GAME: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) started riding Space Invader V0.9.
[2025-03-02 10:23:45.079] GAME-SAY: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) "stop using that move on them"
[2025-03-02 10:23:46.475] GAME-SAY: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) "Where is the fireaxe"
[2025-03-02 10:23:49.465] GAME-SAY: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) "I think you just killed them"
[2025-03-02 10:23:53.724] GAME-SAY: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) "Good"

I think it's the last one that's especially damning to me that you don't really get the point I'm making. It's not that you didn't kill them, it's that you're skipping roleplaying in the roleplaying server by going straight to punching them unconscious. This isn't a ban— like I said later in the ahelp, our enforcement has been a bit lax lately, so I sort-of understand it, but I'd like to not see this type of behavior rather than even trying any words at all. This note is just a warning to not skip roleplay entirely to "deal with" people.

[Archie700]

Full attack logs

Code: Select all

[2025-03-02 10:20:48.832] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [wooden table] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Bar (106,132,2))
[2025-03-02 10:21:48.192] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked *no key*/(�chicken) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 0)  (Departure Lounge (42,118,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:27.933] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:28.931] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:29.923] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:30.735] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:31.557] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:32.488] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:33.560] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:42.012] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Research Division (170,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:42.974] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the fire axe (Wielded) (Research Division (170,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:54.083] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash (NEWHP: 93.3)  (Research Division (165,128,2))
[2025-03-02 10:22:55.637] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash (NEWHP: 93.3)  (Research Division (163,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:02.699] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash (NEWHP: 93.3)  (Research Division (164,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:04.596] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 83.3)  (Research Division (164,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:07.823] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 73.3)  (Research Division (164,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:10.355] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 63.3)  (Research Division (164,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:11.954] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) slipped on the [floor] (Science Lobby (162,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:15.557] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 44.3)  (Science Lobby (161,124,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:17.257] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) lost consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 41.3)  (Science Lobby (160,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:22.190] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) grabbed ka2220/(Invisible Man) passive grab (NEWHP: 35.3)  (Science Lobby (161,124,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:53.963] ATTACK: foil12/(Space Invader V0.9) (mob_3369) is stripping ka2220/(Invisible Man) of Parcel Parceaux. (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:57.925] ATTACK: foil12/(Space Invader V0.9) (mob_3369) has stripped ka2220/(Invisible Man) of Parcel Parceaux. (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:24:05.444] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) regained consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 44)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:24:07.450] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) lost consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 59.4)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:24:27.876] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) regained consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 98.5)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:25:31.068] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked foil12/(Space Invader V0.9) with emergency firesuit (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 97.5)  (Research Division (164,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:25:45.190] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) has thrown the oxygen tank . (Aft Central Primary Hallway (104,126,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:03.420] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:04.277] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:05.170] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:06.077] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:06.914] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:07.888] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:08.857] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:09.744] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:10.615] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [Research Lab Desk] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:20.457] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:21.361] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:22.273] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:23.145] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [reinforced table] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:24.023] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [table frame] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:24.993] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [table frame] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:25.990] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [table frame] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:26.853] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [table frame] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:27.823] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [table frame] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,127,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:30.356] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:31.305] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:32.201] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:33.135] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:33.994] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:34.931] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:35.714] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:36.622] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:37.651] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:38.552] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:39.541] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:40.340] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:41.159] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [grille] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research and Development (162,130,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:44.251] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:45.017] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:45.966] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:46.818] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:47.618] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:48.622] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:49.473] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:50.424] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:51.478] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:52.372] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:26:53.328] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) attacked [full tile reinforced window] with the proto-kinetic crusher (Wielded) (Research Division (168,125,2))

[NecromancerAnne]

Obviously I was the borg in the equation.

The incident took place in birdshot science, and I was getting charged up after having repaired Ordnance from an unfortunate accident involving a can of plasma. I heard breaking and smashing near the front desk, which told me someone was smashing in. I come out to find the mime with a fireaxe beelining through science towards genetics. Obviously this is now my problem as I have to repair this tiding shits damage, so I disable him with my flash. Thankfully, I thought, the security officer in science heard this as well and had come to investigate down the hall. As did the other borg in science, Space Invader, a janitor borg.

I had the mime in stamcrit from flashing, and when the officer had reached us, I figured he would be easily able to cuff the mime from there as there was at least the majority of the stamcrit timer left and they could just baton/shoot them with a disabler to maintain it. I chose to pull away the fireaxe.

Now, at the time, the silicons are not Asimov. We're a lamer version of crewsimov. But the only major consideration is that we didn't want people dying. There was no clause stopping bodily harm.

Rather than do any of the things that I thought a normal security officer would do in the scenario where a totally disabled, unarmed criminal is practically apprehended at this point, Maddix instead chooses to hit the mime with several lung punches as he is laying there helpless. I had done the majority of the arrest already, but I guess he's just opting to instead kill him with oxygen loss. Four to five is enough to set most somewhat injured people dying without medical intervention. Lung punch is a lethal move, and I wouldn't trust it even for less than lethal arrests. But there were medibots around science so I suspect Space Invader probably did as I asked and got him to safety.

At no point did Maddix need to do this. I don't believe he ever intended to do a proper arrest, I think he just wanted to kill the mime. Since he had the warden's gloves, there isn't exactly any reason for me to suspect he lacked access to equipment; it was a green shift and quite quiet overall.

[FlapjackKong]

I gave mime a nap instead of arresting him. I was assigned to secure the research division.

[DrAmazing343]

Can you explain why you didn't use Leg Sweep, the non-lethal version? Lung punching someone into a nap can turn into a forever nap (even if it's not forever given defibs, but y'know) and judging by the logs, you didn't even seem to want to keep it non-lethal anyway. If you would like the note revised in some way, I'd be happy to talk about that, since perhaps I wrote something too unclearly or that seems harsh, but I don't see a reason to lift this note at this time.

[FlapjackKong]

I disagree with you.

[DrAmazing343]

Well, then, I suppose the note will stand. Headmin review is always a right, but in the future, I'd recommend seeking more roleplay-friendly solutions to problems rather than going Jacky Chan on people off the rip— even if it's a Mime with an axe.

[Timberpoes]

I'm still not certain I fully understand what the issue is here and why the note was placed.

The note's wording implies Sec Policy 1:

Ban/note reason: Lung punched a Mime into near critical to subdue them after they fire-axed windows in Research as a Security Officer. Was told to use items like stun-batongs first instead of resorting to lung punching at the outset.

1. Rule 1 of the main rules applies to security.

The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

But the uphold justification implies RP Rule 1

... I mostly just have trouble seeing how it benefits the server roleplay-wise to go straight to fists instead of using the litany of other less violent tools that Sec has ...
... It's not that you didn't kill them, it's that you're skipping roleplaying in the roleplaying server by going straight to punching them unconscious ...
... This note is just a warning to not skip roleplay entirely to "deal with" people.

1. The roleplay servers have a higher expectation of roleplay.

The purpose of the roleplay servers is to provide a higher quality environment for roleplay. The roleplay rules are intended to promote more interactions between players so more roleplay moments can happen. They are not exhaustive, and admins have a very broad discretion to intervene where behaviours or actions could, if left ignored, contribute to a lower roleplay environment.

It would appear to me that the sec member used a less-than-lethal method to subdue the mime, which knocked them unconscious. The mime woke up a minute and a half later in Cryogenics with more HP than when they started, potentially not even arrested - just roughed up a little and dragged to medbay?

Code: Select all

[2025-03-02 10:22:54.083] ATTACK: necromanceranne/(Revenant) (mob_3239) flashed(targeted) ka2220/(Invisible Man) with the flash (NEWHP: 93.3)  (Research Division (165,128,2))

...

[2025-03-02 10:23:15.557] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) quickchoked ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 44.3)  (Science Lobby (161,124,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:17.257] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) lost consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 41.3)  (Science Lobby (160,125,2))
[2025-03-02 10:23:22.190] ATTACK: FlapjackShrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3246) grabbed ka2220/(Invisible Man) passive grab (NEWHP: 35.3)  (Science Lobby (161,124,2))

...

[2025-03-02 10:24:05.444] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) regained consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 44)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:24:07.450] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) lost consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 59.4)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))
[2025-03-02 10:24:27.876] ATTACK: ka2220/(Invisible Man) (mob_3674) regained consciousness ka2220/(Invisible Man) (NEWHP: 98.5)  (Cryogenics (110,114,2))#

So I'm not sure this really falls under the Sec Policy 1 umbrella? This doesn't look like the classical sec jumping to lethals against a non-antag crim because it's less effort than playing by the book. It also doesn't look like the classical over-escalation/rule breaking in response to a shitter stuff we see either.

Instead it looks like a sec officer using the wider toolkit (in this case """borrowing""" from the warden) to effect a less-than-lethal/"subdued before entering crit"-style arrest by incapacitating the crim.

If it didn't fall under Sec Policy 1 and was instead one of the Roleplay Rules or some headmin precedent or other policy, is this actually kind of behaviour we're thinking about when we're worried about under-enforcement of RP standards on Manuel? I'm not sure, I feel like I'm missing the full picture and context. And if I'm missing it, the noted player is certainly going to be missing it too.

So I'd like DrAmazing to better explain their rule reasoning and the broader context behind this note, because I'm not sure I really "get" it and I can't hold a player to any greater standard than my own ignorance and/or stupidity.

[DrAmazing343]

Right, been thinking on this one for a while and discussing off and on with the team, but overall I've decided to overturn this note. I came into the situation late to the ahelp, and so my context was only via scraping logs and what Flapjack told me. The team/Timber and I have had little talks about the validity of lung punching as an arrest mechanic and overall, given it wasn't lethal here, there's no reason for this note.

Originally, seeing the Mime sent into unconsciousness from the lung punches, I had the initial impressive of a Security Rule 1 violation— "The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods. " This was part of what I worried about initially, since I personally consider Lung Punches to constitute violent methods, but the team has overall disagreed with me and I'm willing to concede that we're too in the weeds about it.

The other half was, in all honesty, a bit of personal bias against the idea of punchsec— I felt it degraded the roleplay of the server to have secoffs beating the shit out of people, but ultimately, I do think it's valid for Security to use the tools in their toolbox when they're using them to the proper degree of lethality. I'd still be careful using it, since it can spiral into choking to death with ease, but so long as you exercise caution with it, you've got my greenlight to do so. I apologize if I came off strong on the initial ahelp, and I certainly don't think it was the most productive, but I do hope you can come out of this knowing that you're in the right to use unorthodox strategies for sec as long as they're complying by our other rules. The thing I wanted to do least was to turn you off from Sec entirely, and I hope taking the note off your record makes you feel reenergized to play your heart out.

If you have any other concerns, I'll be happy to address them, and apologies for the wait.

[DrAmazing343]

I'll leave this thread up for another two days in case you have anything else, otherwise I'll consider the appeal resolved with this note lifted and close the appeal.

[FlapjackKong]

I have nothing else, thank you for taking the time to read my appeal.