Farewell MSO?

[CPTANT]

Well that was a weird twist.

[CPTANT]

--deleted--

[CPTANT]

The dumb thing I think is that a lot of MSO's stances on men's rights and things weren't actually that weird. They do often make sense logically. It's just his complete obsession with them and his draconic actions to anyone who thought otherwise and his outright meltdown over them are what led to this mess. I first really noticed it when he did he previous ban spree on discord for men's rights related issue, that was a series of bans that required a bad faith interpretation of what was said in the first place to ever justify a ban and he completely doubled down on it.

What was the point of this entire meltdown? It didn't help anyone and it sure as hell didn't convince anyone, it just burned a lot of bridges for someone who was an otherwise excellent host for many years.

[warbluke]

you might want to check the player's club counterpart to this thread for some very relevant context.

[TheFinalPotato]

The dumb thing I think is that a lot of MSO's stances on men's rights and things weren't actually that weird. They do often make sense logically. It's just his complete obsession with them and his draconic actions to anyone who thought otherwise and his outright meltdown over them are what led to this mess. I first really noticed it when he did he previous ban spree on discord for men's rights related issue, that was a series of bans that required a bad faith interpretation of what was said in the first place to ever justify a ban and he completely doubled down on it.

What was the point of this entire meltdown? It didn't help anyone and it sure as hell didn't convince anyone, it just burned a lot of bridges for someone who was an otherwise excellent host for many years.

wrong pronouns 4head

[ColonicAcid]

THE CURSE THE CURSE THE CURSE THE CURSE.

they have to greytide security to finish THE CURSE

according to their reddit they go by all pronouns so use whatever you want.

[CPTANT]

wrong pronouns 4head

(ps, for the record, I do not have preferred pronouns at the moment but am experimenting with feminine ones)

[TheFinalPotato]

I'm not trying to be rude but it's in the text you quoted, and she uses she/they basically everywhere else

[CPTANT]

I'm not trying to be rude but it's in the text you quoted, and she uses she/they basically everywhere else

Someone saying they don't have preferred pronouns and then someone else getting upset for them has to be some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

[ColonicAcid]

I sure hope nobody impales themselves on a self imposed sword of Damocles over pronouns that the person in question is fine being called whatever pronouns you want to use on them.

That would be extremely silly.

[conrad]

I just use they/them all the time 'cos people seem to be more angry about me getting pronoums wrong accidentally than the actual dented braindead takes I have.

[TheFinalPotato]

Someone saying they don't have preferred pronouns and then someone else getting upset for them has to be some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

I'm not upset at you for usin the wrong pronouns, I'm trying to bug you about it because I think respecting people's identities is of critical importance, and I don't want to keep attaching (non derogatory) to my responses. The situation at time of posting those threads has changed, she's identified herself as trans-fem and uses she/they, which tells me she probably wants to be referred to as such.

[bingusdingus]

It would be different if you weren't taking literally any opportunity to correct people. Even saying "4head" in your responses has an air of smugness that makes you look like an asshole waving your finger at people for making an honest mistake. I understand what you're going for, but I sincerely doubt anybody here is earnestly using the wrong pronouns on purpose, and you're correcting people over something they aren't even technically wrong about. Continually being the only person that does not seem to be on the same page about this makes you look like an arrogant fool.

I didn't want to post here anymore to be completely honest, but you keep making this same mistake and it's pissing me off to no end seeing you double down. Only because you feel the need to correct people over something that isn't wrong in the first place for your own sake, while disguising it as being for the sake of others. Disgraceful.

[SpaceInaba]

i guess we really ran out of things to discuss wrt mso so now this is just what every thread about it is gonna be forever huh

[CPTANT]

Honestly one thing I am still wondering about is what people think of what Wubli said to MSO. I get that this was said halfway through the ordeal so things were already heated, but it still rubs me the wrong way. Do we really have to make statements that boil down to "I'd rather have a significant chance of having all my bones broken and my face clawed off than be in a room with someone from group y"? Because I do find that statement offensive regardless of what group you say it of, be it black people, Jews, women, men or whatever. I also think that personal bad experiences with a group can never be an excuse to commit to racism, bigotry or sexism and make generalizing statements.

[MatrixOne]

What wubli said was hurtful and unbecoming of an admin, but MSO's actions towards her were disproportional and unacceptable. I don't like that wubli was restored to adminship with no consequence, but ultimately I agree with it, because TG has rules in place for overturning bans and notes that were placed through incorrect procedure. These notes and bans get overturned even if the player deserves a ban, and since mso used disproportionally tyrannical means to punish wubli, that should be overturned too. I just hope wubli won't attack others in this way in the future. MSO tried to punish admins for making fun of people in their private admin channels, and mso went about it entirely the wrong way by abusing their power. But I'm under no illusion that now mso's absence will be seen as permission to be even more snide and disrespectful to the playerbase in private. Because who is gonna stand up to it now? Mso's conduct only invites these behaviors now as a form of retaliation (just as wubli said what she said as retaliation for mso's removal of two admins). These toxic behaviors feed on each other and prompt retaliation over and over. A lot of people (and some admins) went completely mask off about what they really think about men, because they felt it was acceptable now to say. This was especially insane on mannycord. Mso's conduct had a hand in sparking all this anti-male toxicity but these people are also responsible for the things they said, and in a way it's good to know what they really think or are willing to say, given the chance.

Bit depressing, though.

[Timonk]

godspeed

[conrad]

And to think none of this would've happened if Osump hadn't gone and made too many characters that didn't follow the firstname lastname naming standard.

[SpaceInaba]

the reason a lot of women do not feel safe when alone around men is because they in real life have bad experiences with being alone around men this might sound crazy but its true, i dont think we really need to pivot to "um what wubli said was problematic"

edit addendum: also seeing someone state that "i dont like [socially empowered group] because of bad experiences" and going "why do you hate me specifically" is part of the brain worm that got us into this whole situation in the first place

[Nabski]

snip

Why the hell is every word a red squiggle.

[CPTANT]

the reason a lot of women do not feel safe when alone around men is because they in real life have bad experiences with being alone around men this might sound crazy but its true, i dont think we really need to pivot to "um what wubli said was problematic"

Like I said before I don't think personal bad experiences are ever an excuse for bigotry, in fact it is a commonly used excuse by racists and bigots. Or are you seriously ok with someone saying racist things about for example about black people if they had bad experiences previously?

Honestly I think going "why do you think its about you personally" has the same vibes as saying to someone "I hate group x, but not you, you are one of the good ones", which I find extremely offensive.

Also remember that this was actually targetted at someone who frequently told us about their actual bad experiences with being treated differently for being a man at some of their lowest points in life.

[conrad]

snip

Why the hell is every word a red squiggle.

I think Timonk is german so it's checking for that language.

is it inapropriate in 2025 to make a grammar nazi joke

[Timonk]

the grammar nazis are trying to purge all non german words by underlining them

[DrAmazing343]

I think wubli was right

[CPTANT]

I think wubli was right

Would you find the following statements offensive?

"I would rather play Russian roulette with a loaded revolver than be in a room with a black person"

"I would rather ram a fork in a power outlet and hope it's the neutral than meet a Jew in an empty parking lot"

Because I don't see any difference between those statements and saying you would rather risk being mauled by a bear than encounter a man. Would you find those statements acceptable if you had bad experiences with those groups before? I find the whole thing deeply offensive.

[Jacquerel]

this conversation is the legacy that mto would have wanted

[TheRex9001]

A lot of people (and some admins) went completely mask off about what they really think about men, because they felt it was acceptable now to say. This was especially insane on mannycord.

I know the main TG cord doesnt have any moderation power over the Mannycord or w/e but why didn't the mannycord discord jannies stop that behaviour? And if you saw admins doing this stuff you should prolly report it to the headmins.

[MatrixOne]

Probably because the jannies agreed with it or didn't want to seem like they're taking MSO's side by moderating it at the time and drawing the crowd's ire, when everyone was in uproar.

edit: you're right, I'll report it properly if I see it happen live. since it's been almost two months ago I can't confidently point to any tgmins now, I'd have to dig through the logs

[oranges]

I think wubli was right

genuinely insane comment, it was like a master class in how not to disagree with someone

[iwishforducks]

maybe the point wasn't to be respectful to a very disrespectful person or have a "civil discussion" with someone that consistently used their iron fist to control civil discussions

[oranges]

all it did was cause us a bunch of work to speed up the migration

[iwishforducks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdNI0_cx22s

[conrad]

I think wubli was right

[Deathrobotpunch1]

honestly, the world is fucked up and we all know it. but can we at least try to keep this out of our silly spess game?

[ColonicAcid]

Probably because the jannies agreed with it or didn't want to seem like they're taking MSO's side by moderating it at the time and drawing the crowd's ire, when everyone was in uproar.

edit: you're right, I'll report it properly if I see it happen live. since it's been almost two months ago I can't confidently point to any tgmins now, I'd have to dig through the logs

The classic over correction.


ILOVEIDPOL ILOVEIDPOL

[Maxipat]

I think wubli was right

Would you find the following statements offensive?

"I would rather play Russian roulette with a loaded revolver than be in a room with a black person"

"I would rather ram a fork in a power outlet and hope it's the neutral than meet a Jew in an empty parking lot"

Because I don't see any difference between those statements and saying you would rather risk being mauled by a bear than encounter a man. Would you find those statements acceptable if you had bad experiences with those groups before? I find the whole thing deeply offensive.

The core difference is that no one argues that bear is safer than a man. But if anything happens actually, a bear will do it out of instinct, be it hunger or sense of danger - and a man will do it consciously and with premeditation. Honestly taking the whole metaphor at face value is just visibly missing the point. (similar point can be made about some women but personally i've never had to feel unsafe alone with a woman)


EDIT: i wanted to double post but i can just edit my last post, motion to move this thread to closed before it hits polcon levels of brain damage and we get a ban wave for breaking forum rules.

[Nabski]

I am mad at MSO because they keep crossposting their tumblr to reddit but ignoring the subreddits rules of self post/promo stuff is only allowed on Sundays.

I got half way through reading it and was like Nooooooooo I'm getting dragged back in.

[bingusdingus]

It feels like the whole concept was created to get a rise out of men that take it in the worst way possible. As well as both men and bear are not bound by singular actions taken by a small percentage of a population which the premise of the argument doesn't address, not all bear encounters are deadly, not all men encounters are deadly. There is a lot more nuance with human to human interaction, than the interaction between a human and a wild animal. This is my perspective as AMAB so I know I could have some implicit biases I'm not aware of so don't jump down my throat.
Edit: I don't know why I felt the need to put my opinion out there, disregard because fuck talking about social issues on a silly spaceman game forum.

The worst part is, I didn't even necessarily disagree with everything MSO said. I just despised they way it was always said in the most smug, condescending, way possible to the point where it rendered any actual positive intent moot. There's no reason to try to educate people, when you make them want to go against what you just said only because you were being a dick about it.

[conrad]

Can we just agree that what MSO did that was damnable was to argue with people in PolCon, abuse her host status and ban them when her patience ran out, and then unban them when she calmed down, and her behaviour was loser behaviour regardless of gender (this includes the deadminning of keith and maxi)?

Then after crossing this hurdle, understand that what Wubli did was to proverbially poke the bear I do not regret this line in a way that is unjustifiably a breach of admin conduct?

is dotted and ts crossed we can move on 'cos this thread is becoming pointlessly attacking someone who isn't here anymore, or who are not interested.

Let's talk about spess and the spessmen that inhabit it.

Have you guys heard of Vanderlin? I was looking into it yesterday after seeing some messages on the discord but haven't played it yet.

[conrad]

Also DID YOU KNOW we call it spess and spessmen because of a very silly Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War - Soulstorm cutscene?

Which in itself is heritage from the 4chan /tg/ days.

► Show Spoiler

[CPTANT]

The core difference is that no one argues that bear is safer than a man. But if anything happens actually, a bear will do it out of instinct, be it hunger or sense of danger - and a man will do it consciously and with premeditation. Honestly taking the whole metaphor at face value is just visibly missing the point.

EDIT: i wanted to double post but i can just edit my last post, motion to move this thread to closed before it hits polcon levels of brain damage and we get a ban wave for breaking forum rules.

How is that any better? "I choose the bear over the black/jewish/transgender person because the the black/jewish/transgender person would hurt me consciously and with premeditation". Like how do you not see how vile of a statement that is?

(similar point can be made about some women but personally i've never had to feel unsafe alone with a woman)

We are back to "I can make racist or bigotted remarks as long as I have bad experiences with the group I am attacking"?

Why would this thread be locked? Nobody is saying anything against the rules, I would find it upsetting if a discussion of these remarks is censored

It feels like the whole concept was created to get a rise out of men that take it in the worst way possible. As well as both men and bear are not bound by singular actions taken by a small percentage of a population which the premise of the argument doesn't address.

.

That doesn't make it better at all. Any substitution of a minority with men instantly shows what is being said.

[Maxipat]

The core difference is that no one argues that bear is safer than a man. But if anything happens actually, a bear will do it out of instinct, be it hunger or sense of danger - and a man will do it consciously and with premeditation. Honestly taking the whole metaphor at face value is just visibly missing the point.

EDIT: i wanted to double post but i can just edit my last post, motion to move this thread to closed before it hits polcon levels of brain damage and we get a ban wave for breaking forum rules.

How is that any better? "I choose the bear over the black/jewish/transgender person because the the black/jewish/transgender person would hurt me consciously and with premeditation". Like how do you not see how vile of a statement that is?

I don't see what's vile in that statement since yes, i'd rather pick a bear over a person from any of listed groups to meet in a forest or dark alley randomly. In fact, the worst thing that you can meet in such desolate and not frequented places is another human. (with the caveat that i can probably outrun a fellow woman, while i can't say the same about an average man)

E:

Why would this thread be locked? Nobody is saying anything against the rules, I would find it upsetting if a discussion of these remarks is censored

I'm not saying it does now, i can already though predict it from experience.

[CPTANT]

I don't see what's vile in that statement since yes, i'd rather pick a bear over a person from any of listed groups to meet in a forest or dark alley randomly. In fact, the worst thing that you can meet in such desolate and not frequented places is another human. (with the caveat that i can probably outrun a fellow woman, while i can't say the same about an average man)

I would buy that interpretation if the rest of what was said didn't make it very clear that this was specifically a male vs female thing and not general human thing.

[CPTANT]

I think wubli was right

@Timberpoes

Is this the official position of the headmin team?

[Scriptis]

the official position of me, myself, and i is that the expression of bigotry is banned from this community and wubli would've gotten a beatdown if it weren't for immediate mistrial by the host a) inciting the remarks in the first place by calling out wubli by name in chatter after locking discussion in bus and b) activating the 1984 memory hole on a senior admin with a storied tenure (what the fuck bro)

also wubli was super drunk and we've given more slack for less (read: mso's constant meltdowns and subsequent appeasement)

[Scriptis]

also this thread is full of bait takers huh

[CPTANT]

the official position of me, myself, and i is that the expression of bigotry is banned from this community and wubli would've gotten a beatdown if it weren't for immediate mistrial by the host a) inciting the remarks in the first place by calling out wubli by name in chatter after locking discussion in bus and b) activating the 1984 memory hole on a senior admin with a storied tenure (what the fuck bro)

also wubli was super drunk and we've given more slack for less (read: mso's constant meltdowns and subsequent appeasement)

Thank you for a sensible response.

[iwishforducks]

I think the question [as a woman, would you rather be stuck in the woods with a random man or a bear?] is a very contemporary question on social gender norms and general gender biology.

But I think the framing of the question is very important. Ultimately, you tend to actually try to avoid anything living coming across your path when you're alone in the forest. Bear or man. The underlying pretext of the question, as I understand it, is that if you're encountering something in the woods, there's a high chance that the thing was/is actively seeking you out. A bear is obviously seeking out food (maybe you're just carrying food on you? Or maybe it's just following the scent of you. Either way, it's still scary but there's very obvious steps to take to disengage), but if another person is seeking you out, then that's *even fucking scarier.*

The Last of Us show was pretty interesting because, at one point, Ellie and Joel are in the woods. Ellie's first fear is, "What if a zombie sneaks up on us?" But Joel isn't worried about fungus zombies; he's worried about people tracking them in the woods. Humans are, after all, the best stamina hunters. And people can be fucking brutal.

So why is the question about a man and not a woman? Well, first and foremost, males statistically tend to commit more violent crimes. Obviously, someone like MSO might point out that these statistics are skewed, and to be frank, I'm inclined to agree. But are they skewed to a point where it actually makes a meaningful difference? From my personal lived experiences, no. Lol. This is not to discredit the possibility of females committing violent crime (because they do, just not nearly as often as males), but rather it's an important predisposition to the aforementioned "the other thing is probably tracking me in the forest": If it's a man, he's probably hunting you. And not "just for meat"

I think if you were to flip the question on its head to "If you were lost in the woods, would you rather try to find a bear or a man to help you?" you would get a very obvious answer of "man" from most people. But even then, I think some women may just answer "neither", but I'm not Women so

anyways, hopefully this explains implicitly explains why i don't think the bear in the woods question is the same as "would you rather play Russian roulette with a loaded revolver than be in a room with a black person"

[CPTANT]

So why is the question about a man and not a woman? Well, first and foremost, males statistically tend to commit more violent crimes.

Big facepalm. So now we are at "bigotry is allowed if I try to back it up with statistics"?

[bingusdingus]

Honestly, I regret even posting about it earlier, because this is a SS13 community, and not a place to talk about nuanced takes on current social issues. But also, It continues to derail the community to political infighting which is probably exactly what MSO wants. The thread should be locked because there isn't anything left that even matters at this point that can't be brought up in a different thread that would actually be relevant to something related to the server's rules.