farewell MSO

[AsbestosSniffer]

Bottom post of the previous page:

i can only assume the user chose to add that as a joke after the fact because i was not made aware of anyone being blacklisted and the list has not been updated.

Public bans shows that Paulie Soprano got whacked by his boss Tony "Stonewall" Gualtieri.

[Timonk]

MSO literally unbanned him just now

[YuiY1997]

Remember when MSO defended slurs for ages saying it was about free speech and then wanted to crack down on people saying incel? That's crazy fr

[AsbestosSniffer]

MSO literally unbanned him just now

"Ayy Tone, you won't believe this shit..."

[dendydoom]

i can only assume the user chose to add that as a joke after the fact because i was not made aware of anyone being blacklisted and the list has not been updated.

Public bans shows that Paulie Soprano got whacked by his boss Tony "Stonewall" Gualtieri.

gosh darn it stop making me laugh this is SERIOUS!!

[Festkongendk]

@dendydoom

Just got out of the can. Suffice to say I no longer feel that I can express my thoughts wiithout getting cracked, so I am unable to answer your question.

[Timonk]

for context this is what it looked like when it was still active

[Festkongendk]

I know I have a history of bad behavior IC and people dont like my character but I have never done anything like what that ban said. I have never made this space unsafe/weird/creepy for people to be in. You can go back and read my original comment if you like that is not what I implied at all.

[AsbestosSniffer]

Yeah we know, we're just breaking balls, tryna to lighten the mood.
The ban itself is gone so nobody will probably remember it in two weeks or thereabouts.

[Somepan]

i was a jannie,

just gonna quote the admin announce i left that caused somepan to ragequit the admin team:

(it also brushes up against rule 8, as virgin/incel/slut shaming is a form of sexual harassment, but only when they can see it)

I left because you crossed a limit, i saw the shit you did on discord, and told myself it was fine, cus it was limited to the discord, the instant you tried to port it to something bigger than that, nuh uh, not staying just staring at it.
There is a discussion about how labels dehumanize people and other them. You are not a good proponent for that argument, as you are heavily biased against feminists, a literal r/MGTOW mod.
The instant you use your position over admins as a means to assert your moronic beliefs on me, among others.

I argued in admin bus that validhunter shitter and such labels could use to alienate a portion of players for playing in ways some jannies viewed inadequate, regardless of actual griefing, and i will happily argue that "incel" can be used in a similar way to other "weirdos" but not with you, not when you happily go and say that agencies that are aiming to help beaten women should actually be closed for not including men within their support. And that is not FRAMING, that is what you actual complain was. You care about one thing and it's men, surely it's a coincidence you're a man yourself, surely.

Your solution to systemic issues that are gendered is to ignore the gendered component; and act like everyone is as likely to be victim instead of acknowledging that, yeah, some people are more at risk of being abused but that that shouldn't restrict how we deal with these issues. Your manichean mind inflicts pain on anyone who's being exposed to it long enough and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

As for the "blacklisted" individual:

Your local MRA weaponizing sexual harrassement claims to get rid of undesirables ? More likely than you'd think !
I sure wonder how between you and me i'm the one belittling victims of SA MSO.

I hope you'll be gone sooner rather than later, you're a stain onto TG, a relic of an age where spitting slurs at minorities was not only tolerated, but a behavior that you straight up encouraged.

[dendydoom]

and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not trying to infer this about me by saying this. the inherent misogyny of implying that someone's independent perspective doesn't correlate with your own could only be because they want attention or acceptance is disgusting and something that i am unfortunately all too familiar with.

outside of these petty disputes i've only ever viewed you in a good light; someone who has become too caught up in an abstract dialogue but whom otherwise holds good intentions. my concern has always been out of the fact that your way of addressing those concerns is at best unproductive and at worst self destructive. dragging other people into that vendetta in a way that hurts your own message is pitiful.

me and mso are very different people. we don't agree on everything. but my approach to these topics is only ever through my own personal lived experience. i refuse to do it any differently. when i was younger, i would engage in these topics similarly to how you seem to be doing so, and it made me miserable while helping no one. i actually see a lot of my old self in how you approach this, it is why i find it quite easy to be critical of it on the basis of the self-harm it perpetuates. it is why every time this topic comes up and i offer my input, it's to suggest that you begin this conversation from a personal place rather than the hypothetical abstract. you cannot reach genuine understanding when the point of reference is not genuine itself.

it is a false equivalency to say that a term that's hostile to people's ability to engage with a roleplay environment in a video game is the same as labelling someone an incel; openly calling players this when you inhabit a position of authority broadly stereotypes them, reducing a complex individual to a stigmatized label. it shames them, tying their self worth to their adequacy in sexual relationships. it also imparts harmful assumptions on them without basis that they cannot easily defend against. nonetheless, for as heavy handed as this point is, it's something that i argue myself - labelling someone a "shitter" is pointless. identify the behaviours rather than deferring to childish name-calling.

when you trample over personal experience with broad and poorly defined hypotheticals, then you alienate and harm good people. bad people will not self reflect. they will not care for the message. good people will accept the message and silence themselves because they trust that your message is sincere. among the many vulnerable people we accept into this community, young men who have lost a physical place to go and connect with people are chief among them. i care for my friends, whoever they are, whatever their characteristics may be, and i refuse to see them harmed because of insincere rhetoric. any criticism you level against mso for doing this, you are equally as guilty the more you dig your heels in and refute accountability for your method.

if the ban was real, which it looks like it was, then i was mistaken and i am glad it was removed, because i would've questioned it and asked for it to be reconsidered myself. i apologise for being presumptive in that regard.

finally, gobears, for what it's worth, i don't dislike you or your characters. i know that you have trouble with regulating your emotions when the game gets intense, and i appreciate that you yourself recognize this and reflect on it. as long as you are making a sincere effort to improve, then i support that and support you. please continue trying your best, it's all anyone can ask of you.

[Festkongendk]

Thanks Dendydoom but it should've never happened.

Again I will not speak to MSO's personal beliefs because I do not feel safe doing so anymore but him blacklisting me and his characterization of it says a lot about the type of person he is. He hasn't even apologized to me. Something to keep in mind as you frame this conversation with Somepan going forward. Listen to what they're saying about MSO and see if that lines up with how they treated me.

I'd be lying to say the ban did not upset me. I graduated college and moved across the country for work where I have no friends and it's a 95% remote job. Sad as it is the folks on Manny are the closest thing I have to a community/friend group right now. When I saw that the permanent ban was in place and I couldn't even appeal I was devastated. It was nice of him to reverse it I guess but damage was done, I was frantically PMing people in discord asking them to help or vouch for me. I did not have a harmonious day.

[dendydoom]

rest assured there isn't any "going forward". this conversation has been spinning its wheels for over a year now with pointless fight after pointless fight and i would honestly find more value in bashing myself in the knees with a hammer than entertain it any longer.

i've said my piece, i've read the responses, and that's more or less it.

[Somepan]

and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not trying to infer this about me by saying this. the inherent misogyny of implying that someone's independent perspective doesn't correlate with your own could only be because they want attention or acceptance is disgusting and something that i am unfortunately all too familiar with.

Damn look at who's learning from her bestie.
You're his friend, you are unable to be impartial in discussions surrounding him, your only perspective on the appeals and the shit you see comes from what he says, you make your opinion based on second hand tellings of what happened; and while MSO is a massive dipshit, i will happily acknowledge that he's great at making people look the worst they could ever be.
But go on, call me a misogynist for saying that you are sucking up to the guy who's both your friend, and in some sense, your boss, as if gender had anything to do with that.
This is about you, and all the people who take his word because "he's the host"

[Jacquerel]

the fact that mso even can still blacklist people right now is kind of embarrassing to be honest
he's always used it for shit like this and supposedly he was retiring 3 months ago, shouldn't even have those keys any more
won't be any consequences for it though even though there would be if it was literally anyone else doing it

it's hard to say that it doesn't make anyone who is trying to take his side look worse, but it always has and nobody can pretend that this is a surprising or unusual action for him to take

[dendydoom]

and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not trying to infer this about me by saying this. the inherent misogyny of implying that someone's independent perspective doesn't correlate with your own could only be because they want attention or acceptance is disgusting and something that i am unfortunately all too familiar with.

Damn look at who's learning from her bestie.
You're his friend, you are unable to be impartial in discussions surrounding him, your only perspective on the appeals and the shit you see comes from what he says, you make your opinion based on second hand tellings of what happened; and while MSO is a massive dipshit, i will happily acknowledge that he's great at making people look the worst they could ever be.
But go on, call me a misogynist for saying that you are sucking up to the guy who's both your friend, and in some sense, your boss, as if gender had anything to do with that.
This is about you, and all the people who take his word because "he's the host"

what a damn shame it is too see you miss the most obvious point. ive said all i have to say to you. you obviously don't get it. this all started because you were asked not to call our players incels in admin channels. now you're attacking me for defending my autonomy. any further effort made is just wasted on you. im blocking you now, have a nice life.

[dendydoom]

the fact that mso even can still blacklist people right now is kind of embarrassing to be honest
he's always used it for shit like this and supposedly he was retiring 3 months ago, shouldn't even have those keys any more
won't be any consequences for it though even though there would be if it was literally anyone else doing it

it's hard to say that it doesn't make anyone who is trying to take his side look worse, but it always has and nobody can pretend that this is a surprising or unusual action for him to take

no one should be banned. i am taking the time to look into these things.

[dragomagol]

the fact that mso even can still blacklist people right now is kind of embarrassing to be honest
he's always used it for shit like this and supposedly he was retiring 3 months ago, shouldn't even have those keys any more
won't be any consequences for it though even though there would be if it was literally anyone else doing it

I unequivocally agree. I would say it's ironic that people are getting banned and having posts deleted for (in part) calling these actions impulsive but I think the irony would be lost.

[conrad]

what would those errors be? not enabling misandry nor misogyny? willing to have difficult conversations that don't allow others to invalidate someone's experiences because of their gender? wanting a community where all people can belong and accept one another?

no one gets every decision correct, and these topics are almost always emotionally charged because they are often based on painful personal experiences, but this post is just ignorant and unkind. you might want to do some reflection yourself before throwing that very large stone in your very fragile glass house.

MSO has done nothing but enable harmful rhetoric under the guise of "equality". Equality isn't protecting a group above all else because you feel like it. He's an incel apologist. He enables misandrist rhetoric by being openly anti measures that do good for groups he's not directly a part of, he's an egoist masquarading as an egalitarian because it's convinient to him. Blacklisting someone over being called an incel apologist and a misandrist when the guy has admitted that he would qualify as an incel is wild.
It fucking tires me as someone who had good memories with TG to now only thinking about it when acquaitances i've met there tell me of the new cool thing MSO did to someone.
Blacklist now, i just want to never think about you ever. Not even have the opportunity to see your bullshit anymore.

Genuine question, do you lurk the forums waiting for something MSO related? Half of your first page of recent posts is that. Every time there's mention of any of the controversial stuff MSO talks or is related to, you show up with two cents.

I don't mean this as a jab but what are you trying to achieve?

[bingusdingus]

and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not trying to infer this about me by saying this. the inherent misogyny of implying that someone's independent perspective doesn't correlate with your own could only be because they want attention or acceptance is disgusting and something that i am unfortunately all too familiar with.

Damn look at who's learning from her bestie.
You're his friend, you are unable to be impartial in discussions surrounding him, your only perspective on the appeals and the shit you see comes from what he says, you make your opinion based on second hand tellings of what happened; and while MSO is a massive dipshit, i will happily acknowledge that he's great at making people look the worst they could ever be.
But go on, call me a misogynist for saying that you are sucking up to the guy who's both your friend, and in some sense, your boss, as if gender had anything to do with that.
This is about you, and all the people who take his word because "he's the host"

I feel like this has been a problem with the admin team in general. Of course they're all friends, it's normal when you play a game with someone for a while, so whenever one admin falls under criticism at least one other person with a colored name is keen to swoop in and defend them before the admin in question gets to respond. It makes it near impossible for anyone to feel like criticizing anything because you get ganged up on for bringing up a real issue. Not every admin is guilty of this, but it's just a pattern I've seen over time.

[soreyew]

no one should be banned. i am taking the time to look into these things.

The intent and effort is appreciated.

[Festkongendk]

Dendydoom, can you see the given reason for my initial blacklisting?

[Somepan]

I feel like this has been a problem with the admin team in general. Of course they're all friends, it's normal when you play a game with someone for a while, so whenever one admin falls under criticism at least one other person with a colored name is keen to swoop in and defend them before the admin in question gets to respond. It makes it near impossible for anyone to feel like criticizing anything because you get ganged up on for bringing up a real issue. Not every admin is guilty of this, but it's just a pattern I've seen over time.

This is mostly wrong, the same kind of actions undertaken by anyone else would've been under much more criticism within the admin team.
I've had admins critisize some decisions i've done despite being on cordial terms and i've critisized some things they've done, but uh, not to sound dismissive, most complaints from players towards admins are unfounded.

[Somepan]

Genuine question, do you lurk the forums waiting for something MSO related? Half of your first page of recent posts is that. Every time there's mention of any of the controversial stuff MSO talks or is related to, you show up with two cents.

I don't mean this as a jab but what are you trying to achieve?

No, someone showed me this on discord. As people do. I have an extensive track record MSO, i'm probably his number 1 hater, that means that when people see MSO doing something stupid they show it to me, and once i've seen it, i will just speak about it.
As timonk said earlier, he was the one to "summon" me here.
Also at the time i started typing all this this was fresh, the blacklist was not yet removed, and it was by far the most egregious MSO had done yet in the name of his Holy Masculinity.

[TheRex9001]

Dendydoom, can you see the given reason for my initial blacklisting?

Every admin is able to do so, its quite easy, but I'm not sure if its public information since you've been unbanned

[conrad]

Genuine question, do you lurk the forums waiting for something MSO related? Half of your first page of recent posts is that. Every time there's mention of any of the controversial stuff MSO talks or is related to, you show up with two cents.

I don't mean this as a jab but what are you trying to achieve?

No, someone showed me this on discord. As people do. I have an extensive track record MSO, i'm probably his number 1 hater, that means that when people see MSO doing something stupid they show it to me, and once i've seen it, i will just speak about it.
As timonk said earlier, he was the one to "summon" me here.
Also at the time i started typing all this this was fresh, the blacklist was not yet removed, and it was by far the most egregious MSO had done yet in the name of his Holy Masculinity.

Yeah but what are you trying to achieve?

>i'm probably his number 1 hater
>once i've seen it, i will just speak about it
>someone showed me this on discord

Honestly this is just sounds like a shit hobby fr

[Somepan]

Yeah but what are you trying to achieve?

>i'm probably his number 1 hater
>once i've seen it, i will just speak about it
>someone showed me this on discord

Honestly this is just sounds like a shit hobby fr

Listen i'm not saying it's healthy, but some people's hobbies just suck. Some people think too much about climate change deniers, or trump, or they play league of legends.
The topic compells me, MSO tries repeatidly to assert his moral superiority and that compells me to bash him for that, cus he's wrong, cus he's enabling misandrists with the shit he spews.
I wouldn't be like that if he wasn't the host. But he is.
That's why i'd wish i could forget about this. And i did for a long time, but then he started a new wave of bullshit on polcon.
I want to forget, i want to let go, but each time he pulls a stunt like this were he supresses people for rightfully shitting on his opinions on certain topics it just pulls me back in. I know it's not healthy, but i do not have the discipline to tell myself that it's fine to let the host of a server you spent thousands of hours into spew bullshit.
I just can't, he's a moron, and i shall point this out each time he is acting like one.

[Jacquerel]

i think dendy's right about this being really pointless self-harming behaviour but unfortunately banning somepan wouldnt stop her from viewing the forum while offline

mso also certainly has his detractors in private channels most people can't see but i can for whatever reason, it's just people dont bother spending a lot of time on it because nobody except mso has power to exercise any consequences on mso so generally you don't gain anything from being loud about it except also being banned
in terms of unaccountable server hosts, only having 3 or 4 mso moments per year is actually pretty good we could have it way worse

[Somepan]

i think dendy's right about this being really pointless self-harming behaviour but unfortunately banning somepan wouldnt stop her from viewing the forum while offline

it's not exactly self harming, this all doesn't harm me. If anything it gives me catharsis, i don't care about being banned anymore, the TG era of my life is behind me, it is ultimatly pointless, but seeing his dumbass weasel his way into justifying the shittiest bans because he cannot admit wrongdoing unless you bow and do the little dance he recquires of you is cathartic.
There's many people who simply do not like what he does or what he stands for and who at times have chosen to shut up because it's better than to have to think about him, but they all eventually start calling his shit out as he scales up his insanity.

Part of me writting all this, the appeals, the compiling of some of his most egregious takes, the complaints;
I want to leave a trace, not of me, but him, of who he is when you interact with him as an individual. I want to remind people of what he does and says. I want, when he eventually retires that people remind him not as the well mannered host he pretends to be but as the moron who has no issues impulsivly banning people because they made him mad, then who tries to rationalize it post hoc.

Now if you want to engage in armchair philosophy and go "Ah yes she's spending a few hours writting about this asshole she doesn't like that must be unhealthy" you are my guest, and if forum jannies think they can justify banning me (at least up until the point he's retired) that's their call.
At this point it's more freeing than anger inducing, i'm done with tg, i have no issues cutting ties, i have means of staying in contact with everyone i want to stay in contact with.

BUT. I will not let his stupid ass act like he was a universally loved egalitarian man, he's a pathetic manchild who uses the sliver of power he has over a community to act unfairly towards the people in it and nothing you can do can make me pretend he's actually a nice guy (get it?).

[conrad]

fwiw I don't think somepan should be banned nor that the behaviour is self-harming.

What I do think is that it's a colossal waste of time. MSO is the host (in transition but still host) and arguing with him is like arguing, yelling expletives and throwing footwear at a hurricane expecting it to change direction.

The hurricane will continue doing its business and likely will just sweep up you in its path. There's a reason lots of admins, aside from codermins in my experience, are very, very cautious when talking about MSO.

He's paid for the game we got to play for a decade. idgaf about his political views, and I'm grateful I got the chance to play. No one lives in my head rent-free, and I get to have fun.

You can just not care about this crap and move on, or resume playing when he's no longer host and whatnot. 'cos you being told he said something and then you coming to the forums to stir shit and cook up a storm while people are going "oh look it's somepan again" sounds like the sort of shit that happens to lolcows and I don't think that's good for you.

[Blacklist897]

how about you touch some grass instead of carrying on drama when you are not involved with tg anymore, I would say the same to MSO but you don't need to tell him to touch grass

[ABearInTheWoods]

I left because you crossed a limit, i saw the shit you did on discord, and told myself it was fine, cus it was limited to the discord, the instant you tried to port it to something bigger than that, nuh uh, not staying just staring at it.

I crossed your line. I had always stuck my toes in administration decisions. 3 headmin terms failed to agree on an anti-bigotry or hate-speech rule so I just made one. You weren't complaining then.

There is a discussion about how labels dehumanize people and other them. You are not a good proponent for that argument, as you are heavily biased against feminists, a literal r/MGTOW mod.
The instant you use your position over admins as a means to assert your moronic beliefs on me, among others.

I argued in admin bus that validhunter shitter and such labels could use to alienate a portion of players for playing in ways some jannies viewed inadequate, regardless of actual griefing, and i will happily argue that "incel" can be used in a similar way to other "weirdos" but not with you, not when you happily go and say that agencies that are aiming to help beaten women should actually be closed for not including men within their support. And that is not FRAMING, that is what you actual complain was. You care about one thing and it's men, surely it's a coincidence you're a man yourself, surely.

So, you agree with it, but don't like that its me saying it, but also you say you stepped down because it was me imposing my "moronic beliefs" on you and others?

as you are heavily biased against feminists, a literal r/MGTOW mod.

I got made one randomly out of the blue despite never posting because I founded a popular for a while mra subreddit for women mras along side GirlWriteWhat/Karen Straughan and Typhon Blue/Alison Tieman. This caused me to become well known within the Men Rights reddit sphere and when some randos made r/mgtow they made me a mod. This was before you had to ""approve"" modship. Would you like to know why I got kicked out? Care to take a guess? Here's a hint. It rhymes with "canning mixologists". I ruled that there was no need for a subreddit about decentering women from your lives to have so many posts about women, and the top mod removed me.

But of course that doesn't play into your symbol warship of caring more about specific connotations of generic terms then any individual reality. "MGTOW mod" Has to only mean one thing to you, the bad thing. MRA has to only mean one thing to you, the bad thing. Incel has to only mean one thing, the bad thing. Its interesting that you only seem to do this on negative terms about men.

not when you happily go and say that agencies that are aiming to help beaten women should actually be closed for not including men within their support.

You are referring to a conversation that happened after this event, and after you stepped down, to justify not only why you stepped down, but why you think im not allowed to have this opinion (the incel one, not the batter women's shelters one) that we apparently sorta share? 1: Time doesn't work like that. 2: im not even sure how to comment on second part. Stop being petty. If we agree then fucking take the unity, shake the hand, and stop hating me for agreeing with you while being an MRA. Because honestly thats what it looks like.

And that is not FRAMING, that is what you actual complain was. You care about one thing and it's men, surely it's a coincidence you're a man yourself, surely.

Context (for everbody else):

He enables misandrist rhetoric by being openly anti measures that do good for groups he's not directly a part of

???

This better not be for what I think it's for. because if so that's hilarious framing.

(I do not only care about men. I just think there are loads of organizations and peoples and groups and government agencies that only care about women and none/nowhere near enough that only care about men.)

The framing bit i was laughing at is the "enables misandrist rhetoric". So basically, you are saying I enable sexism against men, by being against men's systemic exclusion from resources for d/v victims. Whats the logic? that my existence gives sexists an excuse to be sexist towards men? Thats what it is isn't it? Hilarious.

here it is again in a later post:

cus he's enabling misandrists with the shit he spews.

God this is such a toxic viewpoint. I'm enabling people to hate on men, because I care about men and sexist attitudes towards men?

Protip: misandry is bad regardless of if somebody has some example to point to to justify it. and if that example is the gender reverse of a feminist, well then you are just saying that advocacy shouldn't be allowed because it might make people be bigoted.

Here is an alternative take. Hyper annoying toxic """advocates""" for trans issues on twitter do not justify transphobia, and i wouldn't say the people who bullied Daphne Dorman into suicide because she was friends with Dave Chappelle were enabling transphobes because there is no excuse for transphobia and it implies a level of logic in the minds of bigots

Your solution to systemic issues that are gendered is to ignore the gendered component; and act like everyone is as likely to be victim instead of acknowledging that, yeah, some people are more at risk of being abused but that that shouldn't restrict how we deal with these issues.

My view on bigotry is no stats justifies treating individuals differently. blocking autistic men from accessing salary negotiation workshops because stereotypically their gender doesn't need the help is never ok. This also includes acknowledging the harm repeating gendered stats (like victimization rates of SA) causes in how other individuals treat those individuals such as men. As a feminist you surely understand how mimetic things existing in the culture zeitgeist can reinforce harmful associations or are you gonna tell me the gendered framing around Karens has never lead to misogyny because of how it creates an association between "can i speak to your manager" style behavior and the female gender by means of a gendered name as the identity of the mimetic trope?

Whats funny is we kinda agree. ("But that shouldn't restrict how we deal with these issues")

I hate to say it but I think you just hate gender advocacy towards men. You are fine with it if it comes accidentally from feminism advocating for women or trans people, but gender advocacy that focuses/centers men, I think you just object to. Only way we can fucking agree on so much and yet you still shit on my views as much as you do.

Your manichean mind inflicts pain on anyone who's being exposed to it long enough and who's not straight up sucking up to you.

Who the fuck on this server would want to suck up to me? Are you fucking hearing yourself right? Suck up? To me? HA! Ya you're just being petty at this point. Like, have you confused dendy not feeling the need to shit on and bully me like half of this community for daring to care about men as much as the avg capital F Feminist cares about women; with sucking up to me?

Damn look at who's learning from her bestie.
You're his friend, you are unable to be impartial in discussions surrounding him, your only perspective on the appeals and the shit you see comes from what he says, you make your opinion based on second hand tellings of what happened; and while MSO is a massive dipshit, i will happily acknowledge that he's great at making people look the worst they could ever be.

So this is the closest hint to somepan's real issue with me. In a pm convo last month around the time I announced retirement, she was very clear she is mad I "won" the last appeal and made her look bad.



(whats funny is that the way i presented this ban to the headmins was given in the first appeal as I closed it. I copied and pasted the message I left in the headmin channel.)

But this is why she's attacking dendy. The idea that somebody not think of me as an evil lecherous hump has to be attacked in her mind. I'm a nasty MRA who actually gives a fuck about men and doesn't do it under the self flagellating "Feminist"/"Men's lib" way where you preface every opinion with acknowledgement that women have it worse and/or that men are evil. That can't be allowed!

One of the defining traits of an MRA vs a feminist that cares about men too, is a distaste for the oppression olympics because its used to justify punching up at men or ignoring men's issues. My conflict with somepan can be boiled down to this one thing. Somepan, who as a trans women, scores very high on the oppression olympics, and thus is very fond of it. Meanwhile, I, as a cisgendered (mostly)het white man, scores very low on the oppression olympics, and thus has nothing but contempt for the way it's used to justify ignoring my issues or shitting on my demographics.

That's it. That's the key source of our conflict.

BUT. I will not let his stupid ass act like he was a universally loved egalitarian man, he's a pathetic manchild who uses the sliver of power he has over a community to act unfairly towards the people in it and nothing you can do can make me pretend he's actually a nice guy (get it?).

Manchild - a patriarchal gendered insult taking advantage of fragile masculinity to attack somebody's status as a man. Almost always used because of a emotional response from the man, furthering the toxic masculinity ideal of stoicism and suppression of men's emotions.

I can't see how somebody who calls themselves a feminist can be willing to play into patriarchal notions by using an insult such as that, but what do I know? I'm just the "pathetic manchild" with "moronic beliefs" about gender.

[Zeckle]

What I do think is that it's a colossal waste of time. MSO is the host (in transition but still host) and arguing with him is like arguing, yelling expletives and throwing footwear at a hurricane expecting it to change direction.

The hurricane will continue doing its business and likely will just sweep up you in its path. There's a reason lots of admins, aside from codermins in my experience, are very, very cautious when talking about MSO.

Crab bucket community

[conrad]

What I do think is that it's a colossal waste of time. MSO is the host (in transition but still host) and arguing with him is like arguing, yelling expletives and throwing footwear at a hurricane expecting it to change direction.

The hurricane will continue doing its business and likely will just sweep up you in its path. There's a reason lots of admins, aside from codermins in my experience, are very, very cautious when talking about MSO.

Crab bucket community

In the year I was admin I have no recollection of members of the admin team putting effort to sabotage someone who was doing well. Normally what happens they get pushed in a host vote to headmin promotion.

Unless there's a second meaning to that expression I think you meant something else.

[iwishforducks]

What I do think is that it's a colossal waste of time. MSO is the host (in transition but still host) and arguing with him is like arguing, yelling expletives and throwing footwear at a hurricane expecting it to change direction.

The hurricane will continue doing its business and likely will just sweep up you in its path. There's a reason lots of admins, aside from codermins in my experience, are very, very cautious when talking about MSO.

Crab bucket community

In the year I was admin I have no recollection of members of the admin team putting effort to sabotage someone who was doing well. Normally what happens they get pushed in a host vote to headmin promotion.

Unless there's a second meaning to that expression I think you meant something else.

i believe they were referring to your original post that they were replying to. to be more specific, i think they are talking about how you have spent so many words and so many posts dragging somepan for speaking out. but also it speaks about the general community rhetoric that you should be made fun of for even daring to speak against mso, and that you are even deserving of a ban if you do. i would describe all of the above as a crab bucket.

[conrad]

What I do think is that it's a colossal waste of time. MSO is the host (in transition but still host) and arguing with him is like arguing, yelling expletives and throwing footwear at a hurricane expecting it to change direction.

The hurricane will continue doing its business and likely will just sweep up you in its path. There's a reason lots of admins, aside from codermins in my experience, are very, very cautious when talking about MSO.

Crab bucket community

In the year I was admin I have no recollection of members of the admin team putting effort to sabotage someone who was doing well. Normally what happens they get pushed in a host vote to headmin promotion.

Unless there's a second meaning to that expression I think you meant something else.

i believe they were referring to your original post that they were replying to. to be more specific, i think they are talking about how you have spent so many words and so many posts dragging somepan for speaking out. but also it speaks about the general community rhetoric that you should be made fun of for even daring to speak against mso, and that you are even deserving of a ban if you do. i would describe all of the above as a crab bucket.

If that's it, idk how that's a crab bucket. Pretty fucking bad faith to assume I'm "dragging somepan for speaking out". This isn't speaking out, it's indulging in pointless behaviour that serves no purpose other than continue an argument that won't end.

There's a difference between speaking out and having a three year long, continuous feud with no end in sight that drama hags always find amusing to watch. I don't think people should be doing that to themselves. And I don't think our community benefits from it.

If in however many years MSO has been outspoken about being MRA and issues MRA cares about and has been impusively banning and blacklisting people, it's not in this retirement thread that someone will magically hit all the buttons that make him go "bro damn".

[iwishforducks]

If that's it, idk how that's a crab bucket. Pretty fucking bad faith to assume I'm "dragging somepan for speaking out". This isn't speaking out, it's indulging in pointless behaviour that serves no purpose other than continue an argument that won't end.

i believe it to be in perfectly good faith

[oranges]

every single person in this thread is agenda posting real players dont use the forums

[ColonicAcid]

in terms of unaccountable server hosts, only having 3 or 4 mso moments per year is actually pretty good we could have it way worse

This post was brought to you by the scaredofshadows coalition.

What are you going to do about me griefing my own server headmin dipshit? Ban me???

[Somepan]

I crossed your line. I had always stuck my toes in administration decisions. 3 headmin terms failed to agree on an anti-bigotry or hate-speech rule so I just made one. You weren't complaining then.

So, you agree with it, but don't like that its me saying it, but also you say you stepped down because it was me imposing my "moronic beliefs" on you and others?


But of course that doesn't play into your symbol warship of caring more about specific connotations of generic terms then any individual reality. "MGTOW mod" Has to only mean one thing to you, the bad thing. MRA has to only mean one thing to you, the bad thing. Incel has to only mean one thing, the bad thing. Its interesting that you only seem to do this on negative terms about men.


Manchild - a patriarchal gendered insult taking advantage of fragile masculinity to attack somebody's status as a man. Almost always used because of a emotional response from the man, furthering the toxic masculinity ideal of stoicism and suppression of men's emotions.

1) By the time i got to an age and position where i could make a change these issues had been solved. I'm not gonna take "YOU DIDN'T SAY SHIT ABOUT BIGOTRY THEN UH" from the guy who muted me for 3 days for reporting a guy who decided that defining all trans people as "Trannies" was fine. You know, the guy you unbanned.
I was a kid. I was not part of the administration.
What you did with that admin guideline shit was extending an issue endemic to polcon to everywhere else. That, was my line, i had established that if this happened i'd retire, and i did.

2) I agree that terms can be used to demean groups, yes, i agree that incel can be used as an incel towards some people who are social akward. But i also acknowledge that it's a minority of cases, in most cases the word incel is used to refer to a specific subset of misogynistic, lonely, terminally online, who frequent very specific group and express apartenance to the movement of their own volition by using the word incel, or blackpill, or redpill, or in some cases, yes, men's right activist, that's less common, but it happens.

Does that mean that advocating for men's right make you a misogynist, no, does that mean that all people who self refer as incel are misogynistic, no. But the assumption that if you call yourself and incel you're misogynistic is a fair one, because, regardless of the origins of the word, in it's current state the word is used by misogynists. And you're not gonna rehabilitate the word and change the meaning in internet vernacular by going around and banning people who tell you your definition isn't the one most commonly used.

You're not helping anyone with your profoundly anti-feminist rhetoric, you can complain about tons of aspects of feminism, like the very sex-negative waves of it, but you dismiss the whole movement despite it being the source of women's right in our current day and age, and i'm sorry, but that makes you look like a misogynist. I do not know the depth of your soul, but that's what you look like.

3) You're immature. You're impulsive. You're acting like a child, you're a man. You clearly have no issues with your masculinity. If you're taking that word as anything but me calling you a child, and immature, impulsive baby, that's from miscommunication.

To clarify; i am not calling you a manchild because i think your masculinity is weak or that you're not a good Manly Man. I think you're a very masculine man, and also a little waa waa crybaby.
If you feel like this is an attack on your gender expression or whatever else, i apologize, i mean here simply to attack you on the content of your character, not your gender. You can substitute the word Manchild by "Immature person" but it would look like the sentence was run through chat GPT.


Addendum:
Also you're not allowed to use the word toxic masculinity. I thought that was a terrible gendered term that stigmatised men for acting masculine, what's up with that. You changing your mind on that word is symptomatic of a bigger issue of you deciding what's acceptable to say based on who you think is reading, what you think is funny, and how you feel that day.
When other people are using these terms you berate them with the tone of the "If you don't stop i will mute you"


I have a story for you MSO:
In philosophy class, senior year of high school, i had a conflict with one specific girl, and an extremly passive teacher, that girl had perceived an action of mine as wronging her, she started spewing death threats in the middle of class.
The teacher, unable to handle her without outright removing her from the class, urged me to not interact with her.
I did, i let it go, she wasn't saying anything that meant anything, empty threats, insults void of meaning.

Now, this is different, what you say means things, there's meaning in your words, meaning that revulses me, and inherent bias that refuses to be admited, a contempt for people who do not hold the same position as you on the subject. And you just keep going. You lash out, not only at me but anyone who tells you you're wrong.
I don't want to let go, it would, eventually, let the conversation die, but i want you to argue, i want you to not have the satisfaction of having the last word, i don't want it to seem like your opinion is the only valid on the topic on TG. If that means constant opposition, so be it.
There's no resolution here where the conversation ends that's not either
A) You forum ban me conversation ends, but that's an unsatisfactory ending, very anticlimactic.
B) We both walk away from the conversation, never mention the topic again, and we both forget about each other.

As long as you keep answering to my posts or other's people on the topic i will come back with my own rebuttal of your rebuttal, and so will you.
Just let the topic go, let the insults slide of you, and let this fucking debate go, i beg you.

Give your own answer to this and let the topic go forever. let this end. Be the bigger person, cus i won't.

[Somepan]

If that's it, idk how that's a crab bucket. Pretty fucking bad faith to assume I'm "dragging somepan for speaking out". This isn't speaking out, it's indulging in pointless behaviour that serves no purpose other than continue an argument that won't end.

There's a difference between speaking out and having a three year long, continuous feud with no end in sight that drama hags always find amusing to watch. I don't think people should be doing that to themselves. And I don't think our community benefits from it.

If in however many years MSO has been outspoken about being MRA and issues MRA cares about and has been impusively banning and blacklisting people, it's not in this retirement thread that someone will magically hit all the buttons that make him go "bro damn".

Absolutly, the solution is ignoring there's a problem and ignoring instances of your own host abusing his powers (saying anything about it would only make the drama bigger(this is bad for the community))

[ABearInTheWoods]

As long as you keep answering to my posts or other's people on the topic i will come back with my own rebuttal of your rebuttal, and so will you.
Just let the topic go, let the insults slide of you, and let this fucking debate go, i beg you.

Give your own answer to this and let the topic go forever. let this end. Be the bigger person, cus i won't.

I had already decided I was gonna forum ban you for calling me a manchild, I just wanted to let you get the last word in first.

[DrAmazing343]

and so ends the saga of the farewell MSO forum thread . . . not with quiet applause, but a bang and a lock.

[PKPenguin321]

pingas

[Fikou]

snooping as usual i see