Polcon and Moderation

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InternJohn
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Polcon and Moderation

Post by InternJohn » #753209

Beware, I am putting all of the serious side of my brain into this, it will be long, possibly even certainly rambly. I shall try to keep it to the point.

I have already attempted an appeal, this is not an appeal, I accepted the punishment. This is merely asking for headmins and policy makers to consider the following:


TL:DR - It is a mistake to allow people with power to take part in (or frankly even look at outside of the most problematic instances) polcon. People often cannot handle the difficulty of remaining unbiased and professional in the face of their own beliefs. It is not a failing of the moderators, it's just what happens, but to avoid people being put down over silly disagreements, losing long time players over nonsensical pixel-people discussions over the internet, then measures should be put in place to avoid this.




Now for the long 'My reasoning' version in ad nauseum.



This particular complaint is about Discord moderation for TG. I have never really had an issue with in-game administration besides occasional culture clashes between MRP and LRP admins. I want to first express that I absolutely love the TG community, and am sad to see it shrink over time. While what I am formally complaining about here today is likely a tiny part of that problem, I still believe it is a problem that should be looked at with unbiased heads.

I was banned from the discord twice now, which is not a secret, the reasons for the first ban I disagreed with, the second ban is a result of the first ban. The reasoning for that first ban is explicitly due to the nature of Polcon and moderators that participate in it. I understand that MSO is the primary reason why Polcon exists, but I have no issue with people debating. I have never personally had any issue with people disagreeing with me, or having even extreme views. The internet is a fascinating visage into the expanse of the human mind and all of the failures of logic that go into it. I believe it important for people to be confronted with opposing views that challenge, even if those opposing views are nonsensical, it is still an exercise in strengthening your own stance. Weak foundations break under scrutiny, and one must always reinforce their own basis.

So that argument is entirely for Polcon, however what I disagree with is people who hold power debating in this channel. In my experience on the internet, it is extraordinarily rare to find people who can separate their own biases from their duties. It is difficult, very much so, and I do not necessarily blame people who use that power to put down those they disagree with, for that is simply the human condition.

I have, from the time I have been on the TG discord, witnessed a great deal of 'baiting' into disastrous arguments that ultimately end with people being dejected, insulted, or banned. I myself was pushed into an uncomfortable situation when I recalled historical happenings with regard to modern happenings, as a method of drawing some form of connection that provides cause/effect understanding. With regards to the current conflict in the middle east, I drew upon past human tendencies for genocide (thousands of years ago) and the effects of what happens as a result. A discord moderator then pushed me into an uncomfortable situation in an attempt to force me to generate an moral stance on something which had happened millennia prior. I do not like viewing history through a modern moral lens, I have over the years established a very cold unbiased approach to what has happened in the past, in the sense that I cannot change it, and that my opinion may have been different had I lived in that era. I do not have enough tears to shed for every atrocity that has happened in our collective existence.

So as a result of this moderator taking a personal biased stance against me, and pushing me into a direction I did not want to go, I was entrapped in a lose-lose scenario where no matter what I was being painted as something evil, as if I condoned said atrocities, when all I was doing was making unopinionated connections. This was a firsthand experience of the notorious ban baiting that occurs in Polcon. Most TG veterans who frequent that discord will tell you to never go to polcon, I naively didn't know this.

So immediately you have an issue where people with power have personal stakes within highly controversial discussions that cause anger. We are all human, and anger gets to the best of us. I try to be unbiased but even I get frustrated and lash out. Though I would never engage any form of authority to destroy someone, as my stances should be capable of standing without the need of action behind them. I am not accusing the discord moderation team of incompetence, but simply being human. As said, it is immensely difficult not to want to use your power to smite those who you despise or disagree with, and in all of my time on the internet I have only seen a handful of people who can.

In the SS13 community I have witnessed this very often, on multiple servers. Goon, for example, has its own political channel on discord which has led to disastrous consequences as they do not even have a discord-game separation clause. It is no secret of mine that I was banned from Goon's discord and the game forever, simply because I suggested that the admins went too far with someone over their stupid beliefs, to the extent of pure vicious and malicious hatred. I received the same treatment as he did, lumped into the same 'dangerous opinion bucket' as he, all due to my polite suggestion that they were abusing power.

This is the danger that I see as a possibility in the TG community, as the way I was treated in my initial ban rhymed with the way that one goon admin was treating people there. Though not quite as severe or overt.

I can feel TG's community shrinking just by the discord activity, and I always seem to wonder where people go as I miss them. I wondered where Moocow went, and he recently confided in me about his ban-bait and treatment in polcon, and in his own words should you not believe me (He gave me permission to post them here):
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In finality - It is apparent to me that Polcon is a cesspit, and an echo chamber. I do not feel moderators should be taking part or promoting this. It's dangerous to the community, as you have already seen people leaving, when their beliefs no matter how foolish are attacked by people with authority. I mean no insult to any parties involved, I have calmed down since the appeal and accepted it, so this is not out of anger, but concern.


I am unsure of how discord moderators are picked, but it does not feel to be nearly as transparent as the headmin elections, or even the trialmin case. It always feels like I see the same moderators, and I hope it is not something that is entrenched, for the elections and down to earth nature of the normal admins are why I feel comfortable with them in the game.
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Omega_DarkPotato
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #753211

If this is meant to be a policy point rather than a specific admin wouldn't this be better suited for policy discussion?
Also re: moocow like

if you don't want to get banned don't lie to an admin and say that you're doing something bannable???? Or appeal it after, which he also didn't??
I get not wanting "the mob" to disagree with you but saying "haha yeah im just trolling" when communication in bad faith is against the rules and something that'll get you ejected from the politics channel don't say that if you don't want to be ejected from the channel??
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Timberpoes
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by Timberpoes » #753213

Since I'm not sure who or what this complaint is aimed at except the entire concept of moderating the polcon channel while also participating in it, I open this complaint up to allow all current DJs to participate in it if they really want to (omega beat me to it).

Note that the concept you call ban baiting is actually the standard practice DJs use to allow people to dial back on borderline-actionable stuff before being timed out or banned.

By example:
There's a discussion about rugby and a community member says something like "i hate all blacks"
A DJ goes "what do you mean by this?" while replying to the above message
The guy responds with "nz all blacks suck theyre haka is lame fr fr on god no cap" and doesn't get banned or "black people dont belong in rugby is the upper class gentleman sport" and they get banned.
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Omega_DarkPotato
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #753219

Re: Timber's post about standard practice-
Oftentimes it's not even just "allowing people to dial back", it's just because we're confused as to what someone's saying. Sometimes people say shit that's easily misinterpreted, and if I banned someone for everything that's easily misinterpreted polcon would have a lot less people. Asking "what did you mean by this" or "can you explain (x) in further detail" lets us clear up confusion and more accurately gain an understanding of what someone's saying.

If you get banned after someone asks you to explain what you're saying clearly, you would most likely have gotten banned outright if we weren't allowed to ask such a question since we'd be forced to go off of our own worst estimate to begin with.
Polcon is referred to jokingly as a "honeypot" because people who do hold bigoted views (which are expressly forbidden in the rules) will go in there and express them and get banned. It's that simple.
Most "tg regulars" telling people to not go into polcon are saying this because most people just don't like to talk about politics. Again, it's that simple.
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InternJohn
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by InternJohn » #753225

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2024 11:04 pm Re: Timber's post about standard practice-
Oftentimes it's not even just "allowing people to dial back", it's just because we're confused as to what someone's saying. Sometimes people say shit that's easily misinterpreted, and if I banned someone for everything that's easily misinterpreted polcon would have a lot less people. Asking "what did you mean by this" or "can you explain (x) in further detail" lets us clear up confusion and more accurately gain an understanding of what someone's saying.

If you get banned after someone asks you to explain what you're saying clearly, you would most likely have gotten banned outright if we weren't allowed to ask such a question since we'd be forced to go off of our own worst estimate to begin with.
Polcon is referred to jokingly as a "honeypot" because people who do hold bigoted views (which are expressly forbidden in the rules) will go in there and express them and get banned. It's that simple.
Most "tg regulars" telling people to not go into polcon are saying this because most people just don't like to talk about politics. Again, it's that simple.
I did not feel that, I personally felt like I was being pressured into a specific direction, and I felt maliciousness in it. Moocow may have done something very questionable in how he handled it, but the point stands that he was put down and made to feel terrible by polcon and by **moderators**.

I'm not antagonistic towards you, Omega, I do like you as a person and I hold no ill will regardless of your beliefs. So don't feel like this is targeted towards you, it's just that I see an issue that seems to repeat and causes people I Know to disappear from the community. So I'd like to personally see a change.
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #753267

So I'm going to be frank here and state that the /tg/station community's discord has already received one strike in the past from Discord itself. I have literally no idea how long "strikes" last against communities or whether they offer forgiveness for "good behavior", but the sword hanging over everyone's head is that we've already been warned once about allowing content that may violate ToS in the past, and when Discord nukes a community they'll also either outright ban everyone involved in the community or hand out strikes on accounts for being even remotely involved in that community as well.

I'm sorry that you feel that moderation goes too far, but we're proactive in order to avoid the entire community being taken down from discord's far more nebulous regulations on what is or is not acceptable. Politics-containment already has more "lax" rules than the rest of the server in order to facilitate discussion, but ultimately there's hard lines we have to take and stances that we have to shut down due to the fact that not doing so opens us up for retaliation from the platform we're using. Giving people a chance to explain themselves, even if it might feel malicious, is the more user-friendly solution here.

Politics-containment must be moderated, and I don't think Gwyn has done anything wrong in their moderation of it.
Headmins, as always, have their final say on this issue and the course of administration within their term, but I'm going to state that most of our team would much rather not have the discord deleted and are thus unlikely to make an unmoderated space. If you're looking for a truly unmoderated space to talk about politics and your thoughts, you're going to have to look for a different community.
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InternJohn
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by InternJohn » #753323

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:27 pm So I'm going to be frank here and state that the /tg/station community's discord has already received one strike in the past from Discord itself. I have literally no idea how long "strikes" last against communities or whether they offer forgiveness for "good behavior", but the sword hanging over everyone's head is that we've already been warned once about allowing content that may violate ToS in the past, and when Discord nukes a community they'll also either outright ban everyone involved in the community or hand out strikes on accounts for being even remotely involved in that community as well.

I'm sorry that you feel that moderation goes too far, but we're proactive in order to avoid the entire community being taken down from discord's far more nebulous regulations on what is or is not acceptable. Politics-containment already has more "lax" rules than the rest of the server in order to facilitate discussion, but ultimately there's hard lines we have to take and stances that we have to shut down due to the fact that not doing so opens us up for retaliation from the platform we're using. Giving people a chance to explain themselves, even if it might feel malicious, is the more user-friendly solution here.

Politics-containment must be moderated, and I don't think Gwyn has done anything wrong in their moderation of it.
Headmins, as always, have their final say on this issue and the course of administration within their term, but I'm going to state that most of our team would much rather not have the discord deleted and are thus unlikely to make an unmoderated space. If you're looking for a truly unmoderated space to talk about politics and your thoughts, you're going to have to look for a different community.
I had always assumed that was the case, as TG was lawless and unmoderated in the past. So presumably it would receive a strike if anyone had reported it. However going from one extreme to the other isn't ideal, not saying that it has reached that point yet.

I'm also not even remotely suggesting that you stop moderating polcon, nor was it implied to the best of my linguistic ability. My argument is entirely for moderators to not be so ban happy and to keep out of discussions entirely to avoid personal bias interfering with their directive. The 'giving you a chance to walk it back' in many cases just looks like you're trying to force them into a box which will, either way, get them banned. I recall seeing a couple of those scenarios besides my own banning in which I felt like there was no right answer and that person was gone regardless.
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Timberpoes
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Re: Polcon and Moderation

Post by Timberpoes » #753325

If being asked what a person meant leads to that person giving an explanation that showcases how what they said breaks some rules, then the problem isn't the admin team asking people what they mean by things. It's that people shouldn't break the rules and then pikoh when they're called up on it and can't provide a sensible explanation.

None of the Discord Jannie team give two shits about optics when it comes to moderating. Maybe they used to, before the Discord ToS/Guideline Violation warning email that got sent to every single DJ, Headmin and Game Master on the Discord.

To give you a snippet from that warning, here are categories of things that can get our Discord nuked or have actions taken against the accounts of people with moderation permissions on the Discord:
Specifically, /tg/Station 13 Official™ Discord Server contains content that encourages or depicts dehumanising or discriminatory content, or encourages violence towards an individual or community based on their real or perceived membership to a protected group.

Examples of this content include, but are not limited to:
• Content that purposefully dehumanises members of a protected group
• Content that perpetuates harmful negative stereotypes about a protected group
• Content that calls for the exclusion, segregation or discrimination against a protected group
• Content that makes unfounded claims about a protected group and spreads fear or hostility
• Content that casts on doubt on or denies the occurrence of a mass human atrocity (e.g. the Holocaust)
A lot of this comes directly into polcon. The moderators have to be proactive because of it - and polcon is still very laxly moderated despite this compared to the rest of the Discord. Discussions and topics and arguments that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere can happen in polcon.

So a lot of discussions do not have two sides of equal value - they have the correct side and the side that ends up with Discord taking action against us if not moderated. For example, you can't deny the Armenian Genocide no matter how much propaganda from the Turkish government you cite in support of your arguments. Even if you're Turkish and honestly believe the Armenian Genocide didn't happen. Either you don't discuss it unless you avoid casting doubt or denial on its occurrence, or you get warned/timed out/banned.

I don't want to ask the DJs to not participate in polcon if they're going to moderate it. Moderators have to be a part of the community. I will not support any initiative that removes moderators from the community because a couple of people can't stop running their mouths on topics they probably shouldn't share their opinions on.
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