[PotatoMasher] JupiterJaeden - Campbell """"metacommunication""""

[JupiterJaeden]

BYOND account: JupiterJaeden

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
() - Server Ban
(x) - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: Indefinite
Ban/note reason: In the Manuel Gamer Hut discord, organized a meeting with player Krytor to help them with practicing security. This is fine, however, JupiterJaeden then later said this in the discord: "@krytor im fixing power btw" "kinda fun on its own lol" Metacommunications of any sort on any vanilla TG server is a very serious rule violation and can be met with a permanent ban, do not repeat this.
Time ban was placed: 2024-07-12 06:58:03
Server you were playing on when banned: Campbell
Round ID in which ban was placed: Round 231974

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:

First of all, a little context. Me and Krytor were the only 2 players on the server, as the 3rd guy had suicided. We did not have any kind of ongoing metacommunications and almost ALL communication happened IC. The ONLY thing I said to Krytor was "I'm fixing power" and that was BEFORE Krytor had even joined. The knowledge that the power had failed is barely even IC knowledge given that anyone can look at a campbell round with no players like 4 hours in on the tgstation website and know OOC that there is going to be no power.

I'm going to point out that RIGHT after I sent the message saying I was fixing power, I directly instructed Krytor to not do any metacommunications once they had joined, these are my next 2 messages in the discord:
"anyways no metacomming just letting you know before you join"
Krytor said: "There's 3 people here, are we supposed to take this seriously like a real game?"
"nah but you're still not technically supposed to metacomm"

I know I'm going to get hit with the "metacommunications is our most serious offense, we treat all infractions harshly no matter what!!" excuse, but let me point out that CAMPBELL ALREADY HAS RELAXED METACOMMUNICATION RULES. The main /tg/ discord has the #reports-from-campbell-station channel which allows for the revealing of WAY more IC knowledge than anything I said. To repeat that: you are literally allowed to share round details from campbell so long as they pertain to the actions of your character (such as, you know, fixing the power). But it's TOTALLY different if I say one line of barely IC information in a different discord right?

Can we have a little common sense please? It's abundantly clear that my """metacommunication""" in this instance is not going to be indicative of any future patterns on actual /tg/ game servers given that I literally told a new player not to metacommunicate in the next line, so why the hell do I need a red note on my record?

[Vekter]

This is the relevant part of the rules regarding the #reports-from-campbell-station Discord channel:

Rules of ⁠reports-from-campbell-station
⁠reports-from-campbell-station is an in character channel for reports from characters currently playing in the Campbell sector. It is intended as an asynchronous communication channel for Campbell crewmembers to share information about the current state of the station, or themselves. All posts in this channel are held to the standard of medium roleplay server IC communication. You are encouraged to use Campbell reports creatively, but it will be strictly monitored for deliberate attempts at powergaming or exploitative metacommunication.

The intent behind this channel in the past has been for communication with other players about a round while they have been offline, due to Campbell rounds running significantly longer. An example would be for coordinating a project or specifying issues impacting the station that another player may want to repair if they log in. The channel only allows posts once every two hours, limiting the ways players can communicate using it.

Metacomms have not been a serious issue on Campbell in the past due to the server's lower population, but rule 2 has historically been enforced the same there as it is on other servers; there are no specific rule differences between Manuel and Campbell.

[dendydoom]

i was not consulted on this ban and had no input on it, but in the interests of accuracy pertaining to the rules here i can address some of this:

I know I'm going to get hit with the "metacommunications is our most serious offense, we treat all infractions harshly no matter what!!" excuse,

first of all, it's not an "excuse" to say that we treat metacomms seriously. we do treat it seriously, whether you like or not, or whether people think it's harsh or not, that's how we enforce it, and it's not going to change.

the lenience here is obviously in that you were noted for rule breaking behaviour instead of banned for it. it is to clarify for your sake that this is in violation of our rules on metacommunication, clearly with respect to how you could have been misinformed on the matter, and helps us with recordkeeping and accountability in the knowledge that you are now informed.

CAMPBELL ALREADY HAS RELAXED METACOMMUNICATION RULES. The main /tg/ discord has the #reports-from-campbell-station channel which allows for the revealing of WAY more IC knowledge than anything I said.

this was not done in the specifically created channel for this purpose. it exists so that we can have a fair compromise that allows players to share their creations in the lowpop marathon rounds of campbell while also ensuring we can strictly curate what's being said in that channel.

But it's TOTALLY different if I say one line of barely IC information in a different discord right?

yes. one is breaking the rules, the other is not:

Metacomms, **the use of methods of communication outside of SS13 IC channels,**is a very serious rule violation and may be met with permanent bans for all related accounts.

(emphasis mine)

whether someone is in the round or not doesn't affect what is and isn't metacommunications. if you are sharing in-game information about an ongoing round using out of game methods, then you are metacommunicating. we have made a very specific exception to this in the case of the IC campbell channel because it is strictly monitored. this is for the benefit of campbell players with strict rules and terms (elaborated on in the channel itself), it does not exist to be used to the benefit of people looking to excuse themselves from metacomming.

so, while this appeal justifiably seeks clemency and understanding in this context, which you are fully within your right to ask for and the actioning admin is fully within their right to consider, it *is* rule breaking behaviour.

[JupiterJaeden]

It is frustrating to get brick walled by admins with pedantic, draconian adherence to the perceived rules on an issue which is clearly and unambiguously completely inconsequential. The idea that my actions, which were already incredibly minor, substantively change because they were posted in one discord channel instead of another is really silly. Can you all actually not see that?

As you said yourself, the purpose of the reports from campbell station is to allow metacommunications on campbell (this is exactly what it is btw) to be monitored for anything actually exploitative. It is abundantly clear that the one line of text was not in any way exploitative, especially considered it was immediately followed by a reminder to a new player not to metacommunicate. So why in the world do I need to be punished?

I'm half convinced potatomasher is just mildly upset that I jokingly called them a narc. I'm sorry, but it was meant to just be a lighthearted joke. I don't see any other reasonable reason this would require any admin action.

Furthermore, it is really disappointing to me that something which is an unambiguously positive usage of the otherwise completely empty campbell, that is, teaching a new player things about the game, has now been turned into 2 red notes for 2 players because of this.

[dendydoom]

when you made this appeal, you were asked to put your reasons for appealing. one of the ones you chose was this:

(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules

the purpose of my post was not to stonewall you, it was to explain to you why this aspect of your argument is factually inaccurate.

we do not rule 0 metacomming. we consider it cheating.

if a player uses a hacked client to help another player, regardless of it's impact, we ban them.
if an admin is playing a round, re-admins themselves to spawn a pen for themselves then reverts back to a player, regardless of the negligible impact, we de-admin them.

it is because these things are considered cheating.

when participating in this hidden-role social deduction roleplaying game, all must participate fairly and equally on our servers. unfair advantages, regardless of their impact, aren't tolerated.

if you base your appeal on these grounds, then it is unlikely to be taken in the way that you want it to be taken and accepted. i'm trying to help you.

the part of your appeal which is valid:

(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh

is perfectly reasonable and a valid position to appeal from.

if this had been a draconian application of the rules-as-written, then this would be an appeal for a permanent ban, one which not even i could uphold with a straight face.

as it stands, this appeal is for a note which is asking you not to repeat this behaviour.

i hope this clarifies some things.

[JupiterJaeden]

I just want to point out again to kinda highlight the absurdity of this situation that the server was completely empty other than 1 suicided guy I found right after joining (and before putting anything on discord), and the person I was teaching. This was an empty server. I frankly don't understand why the hell admins need to be actioning anything that is happening between 2 people on an otherwise empty server.

And to you dendy, this is exactly the pedantic adherence to rules I am talking about. The idea that the exact wording of the law must be followed to the letter ignoring every shred of context is surely not a healthy way to administrate the servers, no? I don't see why game admins need to be rules lawyering this hard for something that happened on again an EMPTY server. It is literally not possible for our "metacommunication" to have affected anyone else.

I appreciate that it's a note and not a ban, but it's still another red note on my record, something I am particularly unhappy about because of my otherwise clean record lately. At the minimum I would ask the severity is reduced to minor, even if I'd like a complete removal.

[dendydoom]

The idea that the exact wording of the law must be followed to the letter ignoring every shred of context is surely not a healthy way to administrate the servers, no? I don't see why game admins need to be rules lawyering this hard for something that happened on again an EMPTY server. It is literally not possible for our "metacommunication" to have affected anyone else.

like i said in my post, if this were true adherence to the letter of the rules, then this would be an appeal for a permaban. so, it is a good thing that the ability for lenience is actively being demonstrated here. you weren't banned, you were asked to not metacomm outside of the game, and then you were noted to record that discussion going forward. this is actively factoring in the impact and scope of your behaviour, so the insistence that i'm refusing to acknowledge the circumstances is not accurate, and i'm not going to put in the effort of defending myself against claims that make reductive assumptions about my principles and motives.

the importance of this rule as a basis for our game to work and for our community to be fair and equal to all participants is precisely why i'm personally posting in this appeal before the noting admin has even said anything. you are correct: the server was empty, your impact was negligible, but as i've tried to explain to you, with this specific rule (and our entire stance around what we perceive as cheating) we are still going to uphold it and ensure that it is taken seriously.

the foundation of our game needs to be clear and equitable to every participant. i don't want small caveats appearing with things like "well if x is true then *technically* it's not-" no. i'm not going to budge on it. it opens up too many risks, and it poses too many questions that undermine our very efforts to be fair in the first place. therefore, you were requested to not do this again, and noted for it to verify your understanding that metacomms is still enforced on campbell. there are plenty of servers that already offer the experience of wishy-washy attitudes on fairness, and whose admins will actively handwave away instances for some and then bring the hammer down on others. that's not how we do it here. if you wish to participate on our servers, then you must acknowledge the most basic rule of participating fairly.

it's not an argument about whether it's valid or not to have a skub war, or whether it was rule 0 that the clown plasmaflooded evac as a funny, or if it was reasonable for the captain to TTV a revolution in medbay and kill a bunch of loyal doctors in the process - all situations where leniency and context are of the utmost importance to support our game and community. it is about our stance on metacomms, and our stance is that you are not allowed to discuss information about ongoing rounds outside of the game.

i have chosen to address this aspect of your appeal because you chose to claim that what you did was not rulebreaking behaviour when you selected the reasons for appealing. i am trying to explain to you that our stance is that it is still not allowed. this is not an attempt to invalidate your requests for clemency and understanding, that is something that i respect entirely and support your right to do so, what i'm trying to do is clarify how the rules are enforced, and how they will continue to be upheld with regards specifically to metacomms.

I appreciate that it's a note and not a ban, but it's still another red note on my record, something I am particularly unhappy about because of my otherwise clean record lately. At the absolute minimum I would ask the severity is reduced to minor, even if I'd like a complete removal.

this is entirely different to the argument that no rules were broken. it's the part that links back to why you chose "(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh", and i respect it completely. this is the thing that you will have to discuss with the admin who placed the note.

for what it's worth, while i'm here anyway:

the only way this note can affect your standing is if you go and do what we just asked you not to do again. other than that, your ability to participate is entirely unaffected, and your standing as a player in regards to all other aspects of the game is untouched. if you go and maxcap the bridge tomorrow, we're not going to go "well they metacommed on empty campbell yesterday so it's a perma i guess!"

the severity of a note means so little to admins that most of them don't even select one, they just leave it at the default. our access to the note/ban database and our discord bot which retrieves from the db doesn't even display note severity. an admin that bases a ban on severity would get laughed out of the room.

if the actioning admin wishes to extend more lenience by reducing the severity, or editing the note to add more context, or remove it entirely because they feel you understand what is being asked of you, then that's up to them, and i respect their ownership of the situation and their ability to decide, with everything in mind, how they would like to proceed with you on that.

i genuinely hope this has clarified things better.

[PotatoMasher]

Hey JupiterJaeden, thank you for taking the time to make an appeal.
Dendydoom seems to have already said nearly all of what I would have said myself regarding the focus of this note appeal and why the administration would even bother placing a note over this, so I'll try and be a little more brief than I usually would be.

Before taking any action, I ensured to consult with other administrators on the situation. The consensus was that at the very least a written warning should be issued and that a note be placed to make record, so that was the course of action I took.
I'm a little saddened that you would consider your narc joke to possibly have bearing over my decision to place the note; that isn't the case at all.

As it currently stands, the contents of the note regarding what happened are factually correct. The discord messages were a infraction of rule 2, little their impact be. The negligible impact is why a note was placed to record the incident rather than any sort of ban, with a reminder of the severity of such an action and the potential consequences as described in the rule 2 precedents. Thus, I cannot see your supplied appeal reason of "The ban/note is not against the rules" being considerable grounds to adjust/remove the note.
Additionally, as others pointed out above, the reports-from-campbell-station is a unique exception/controlled environment to conduct in-character reports about events going on the station with it's own tightened rules about what can be posted. Any other communication outside of that channel that shares in-game information from an active round is by definition metacommunication.


However, your other appeal reason ("The ban was unjustifiably harsh") I'm open to discussing.

I do not believe the note should be entirely removed as the info it presents is correct. Notes serve to help track behaviors and trends of individual players, and that is what this one is set for as well; it's merely something for future admins to reference if a similar future incident would come to be.

I appreciate that it's a note and not a ban, but it's still another red note on my record, something I am particularly unhappy about because of my otherwise clean record lately. At the absolute minimum I would ask the severity is reduced to minor, even if I'd like a complete removal.

While the severity marker doesn't really have any bearing on how bad a note is, it would be smooth-brained of me to not consider that there could be some subconscious interpretation that the red triple exclamation points attached to the note as meaning the metacoms involved were much more impactful than it was. I'll knock that down a peg at the very least.

If there's a part of the note that you believe to be unjustifiably harsh and in need of revision, or if you want to suggest an amendment for further clarification, please do inform me so.

[JupiterJaeden]

I appreciate the severity reduction. If you're not going to remove it can you add to the note that the server was completely empty other than us please, because I do not want it implied that I would have metacommed on any server with other players

[PotatoMasher]

Sure thing! More context is never something I'd say no to. I have edited that detail into the final line of the note.


The last line now reads:

• "No other players besides JupiterJaeden were active in-game when the discord messages were sent, so the impact of these messages was minimal. Despite this minimal impact, metacommunications of any sort on any vanilla TG server is a very serious rule violation and can be met with a permanent ban, please do not repeat this."

If this and the severity reduction is acceptable, then I'll consider this appeal complete unless you have anything else you would like to add.

[JupiterJaeden]

Sure, there would be no point arguing it further. Thank you for those modifications at least.

[Timberpoes]

Considering existing headmin input in general on this topic, I'm treating this appeal as resolved with no further input required from player or admin and no additional comments intended from the headmins.