[UPDATE] Give Cyborgs speeding tickets

[Sightld2]

The Background

This was going to be a PR, when to my shock and awe, movespeeds are a CONFIG issue in config/game_options and thusly on the admin side of the separation between church and state.

Code: Select all

## The variables below affect the movement of specific mob types. THIS AFFECTS ALL SUBTYPES OF THE TYPE YOU CHOOSE!
## Entries completely override all subtypes. Later entries have precedence over earlier entries.
## This means if you put /mob 0 on the last entry, it will null out all changes, while if you put /mob as the first entry and
## /mob/living/carbon/human on the last entry, the last entry will override the first.
##MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/carbon/human 0
MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/silicon/robot 0.1
##MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/carbon/alien 0
##MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/simple_animal/slime 0
MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/simple_animal 0
MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/basic 0

The Change

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MULTIPLICATIVE_MOVESPEED /mob/living/silicon/robot 0.1

But why?
Don't get me wrong I love cyborgs and I love playing cyborg. But having no damage slow down and being as fast as any one else makes them a PITA to fight against.
It's entirely unfair that carbons powergaming mood will still only wind up being on equal footing with a cyborg, and even then only until they're hit a few times and slowed down.
I LIKE having no damage slowdown, I think the flavor of unfeeling tank that pushes on until physically disabled is EPIC. But we're having our cake and eating it too by being a tank that is also as fast as the cavalry.

How does it play?
Too much of a decrease would be very annoying. I don't want that. The idea isn't to make cyborgs bulky juggernauts that take 5 years to get anything done. But a full speed human should be able to outpace them.

I've tested the value of 0.1; I think it works and works well. It isn't overtly noticeable on the cyborgs end.
Here's a video of what it looks like: https://youtu.be/7Vcy5t_XOoI

As you can see, it's not a dramatic change, but the monkey is now able to catch up and land hits on the cyborg (mind, my pathing isn't ideal but you can see even on the straight-aways, he's gaining on me.)
If that monkey had a flash, I'd probably be in some serious trouble here.

[Constellado]

I love being the super steed and carrying people around to safety in emergencies

This would be a HUGE NERF to Borgs overall, so I think there should be some kind of buff somewhere else in response.

Mind you I'd try it to see how it feels, maybe it ain't so bad.

I am just picturing dying waaay more often as a result though...

EDIT: I misunderstood, it's a flat 10 percent speed decrease instead of what I THOUGHT which was speed decreases from damage.

I'd rather add in a Borg speed decrease when damaged than nerf the movement speed of Borgs entirely.

[MooCow12]

Carbons have access to methods that speed themselves up and ignore damage and equipment slowdown mostly in the form of chems but there are a few alternative ways.

Cyborgs are hardstunned for quite a bit by things that would only knockdown a spaceman like a nearby explosion or falling.

If cyborgs are semi-consistently slower than everything else you end up with them not being able to run away from the things that hard counter them (mass printable cheap ass flash moment)

Cyborgs/Silicons approach combat entirely differently compared to humans, its an equipment check and the equipment that counters them is very easy to conceal and mass print. Cyborgs do not have ways to powergame their individual bodies in ways that crew can, they can do more job related stuff but there is nothing that will ever protect them from a flash or an emp or speed them up further or allow them to block hits entirely.

Yes there is more that can go wrong with humans but humans scale more independently and far faster into the round than cyborgs and cyborgs have a very low cap on their scaling.

What this usually results in is the combat loop for cyborgs is if they are fighting against someone who has passed the magic equipment check they simply cannot fight them one on one and instead must work to isolate those people and group together to take those people down, cyborgs only strength that they can rely on and hold dear are consistent mobility and coordination and if you take either of those things away from them they are nothing after 20 minutes into the round where the avg spaceman can have

insuls, space immunity, speedup gamer mix, hulk, flash, eyeprotection, full toolbelt, rcd, healing chems, armor, etc.


Also cyborgs (mostly) lack ranged weapons and being slower than someone with a ranged weapon is a good way of dieing without even doing a single point of damage back.

[carshalash]

Didn't borgs just get nerfed with the change to burn damage?

[TheSmallBlue]

I don't really have a problem with this, I don't think it'll impact my cyborg gameplay negatively at all so like. Yeah.

[Higgin]

yes, do it, slow them down. they're a pain in the ass and have massive mobility advantages in other areas that only make a tradeoff like this more reasonable.

[Kubisopplay]

You can throw things at them to slow them down, adding a permament slowdown on top of all of their other weaknesses is just stupid. Also they cant repair damage from lasers anymore, so just get a lasergun, and hit like 5 times.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Borgs are kinda supposed to be slower than humans and theyve ended up getting batteries of nerfs and counters coded in as a response to being the same speed as an unhurt human over time, many of which people have no clue exist like throwing trash at them. Lowering their speed down to "can't win a footrace" is probbably a good solid nerf that will make cyborgs a lot less aggravating to the rest of the crew (especially security) and if they start sucking ass because of it we can just buff them in return.

Re-establishi a solid ground of "You can always catch a borg in a straight chase when unhurt" then we can build off the implications that not being able to escape has for borg play

[Indie-ana Jones]

I'd be curious to see what happens, which will likely be cyborgs getting ran at with flashes and stunned and killed easily. However, I think it'd be healthier for the game if they were slower and then received changes as compensation.

Do note that a lot of cyborg work is saving humans from other people attacking them, and this change would stop them from doing that.

[Sightld2]

I'd love to see code-wise changes as compensation if this goes through, but even aside from that I think cyborgs slower as a base-line is good even on it's own.

I don't think it will be <i>impossible</i> for a cyborg to escape someone chasing them with a flash, and thereby also saving humans from other humans. Plus, for the latter, you can still give your human a spin to chuck them away at a million miles per hour.

My honest concern would be how improbable it would be for a cyborg <i>giving chase</i> to a target they need to down.

And if this turns out to suck for all involved it can always be reverted, we could give it a trial run for a bit.

[DrAmazing343]

I think this would be a decent test; Borgs are really fucking fast at all times even when you’re at the top of your form, and I believe comparing that to the steps to become a math’s up super soldier is a bit odd when we’re trying to make the comparison to normal every day spaceman for balance and not Walter White’s Strongest Crackhead.

+1 to a test, Borg stronk.

[Tegun]

This should really be a code solution because I can't imagine this would feel fair without some sort of balancing act. Nobody's going to buff borgs over a config change, that's just going against whoever's vision it is guiding borgs right now.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This should really be a code solution because I can't imagine this would feel fair without some sort of balancing act. Nobody's going to buff borgs over a config change, that's just going against whoever's vision it is guiding borgs right now.

Borgs have had features added to them specifically based around their speed being fixed at a high value in the past (Throwing trash at them to get away) so it's not impossible.

[Jacquerel]

This should really be a code solution because I can't imagine this would feel fair without some sort of balancing act. Nobody's going to buff borgs over a config change, that's just going against whoever's vision it is guiding borgs right now.

There simply isn't any specific person with a guiding vision for borgs right now, the last person who made significant cyborg changes was an ex-admin who I haven't seen around for some time and the last maintainer temperature check I picked up on was a general feeling that the tools cyborgs get are a bit boring.

[kieth4]

Let's remove robots and replace them with guys in wheelchairs who have aa

[EmpressMaia]

This would be a welcome change,

[dendydoom]

i would be open to testing this. it would be interesting to see the effect on how efficient borgs are and the change of pace to things like malf rounds or subversions.

[Blacklist897]

what if we replace borgs with robo chap style androids But keep ai shells and syndi borgs/s

[zxaber]

Borgs are faster than game-start humans but slower than what mid-game humans can achieve. There is no way for a borg to increase their speed except by being in a bluespace body bag carried by a human.
(This is pretty much in-line with most of the aspects of being a borg.)

Before we nerf borg speed, I'd be nice if there was a mid-game upgrade for borgs to get them their speed back.

[ekaterina]

From a security perspective... command can already lock down rogue borgs remotely if you need to catch them.
Sure, it would make it easier for regular sec and crew to take down a borg, but do we want that? Borgs haven't been overpowered since the engiborg's stun arm got nerfed.

[Kubisopplay]

This should really be a code solution because I can't imagine this would feel fair without some sort of balancing act. Nobody's going to buff borgs over a config change, that's just going against whoever's vision it is guiding borgs right now.

There simply isn't any specific person with a guiding vision for borgs right now, the last person who made significant cyborg changes was an ex-admin who I haven't seen around for some time and the last maintainer temperature check I picked up on was a general feeling that the tools cyborgs get are a bit boring.

To be exact the change took few months of regular begging around to have an ok from maintainer.

Slowing borgs down in current code environment will almost completely remove their chance of fulfilling their laws without being destroyed, any chances of not engaging with antags without advanced paranoia, and will impact normal playstyle because everything you do will be slower. I am not even sure if it will impact normal gameplay, or combat more, simply because how incredibly annoying being slower than everyone around you can be, especially if you can't change it.
Another thing is, this is a config change, so there is 0 guarantee borgs can be given anything back on code side if they get smacked with a nerfbat here.

[DaBoss]

Can we please not have a kneejerk borg buff?

[Constellado]

I dont think it would affect me as a medical borg but it FOR SURE would affect me as an engineering Borg, or if I decide to do search and rescue work. Following law 2 would be difficult as the least harmful way to save a person is to buckle them on and zoom away. We will lose some of that.

I would be willing to try a damage based speed nerf but that can have the same issue where if an antag hits you once when you are saving a person you lose the ability to save the person. You can't just fight back like most people would due to laws, so it's the only option.

Can we please not have a kneejerk borg buff?

Buff?

You mean nerf, yeah?

[NoxVS]

Borgs have significant strengths that are balanced out by their significant weaknesses. There are going to be situations where it feels like there wasn't much you could do to stop a cyborg. There are going to be situations where the opposite is true, and the cyborg doesn't really have any options to win. I've had moments as cyborg where I pull some cyborg bullshit to beat someone who never really had a chance. I've had moments as cyborg where I am dodging lasers, running around in circles, trying to desperately let the person aiming to kill me know that I literally am not capable of fighting back.

Fighting a cyborg? Use one of their many weaknesses. If one isn't available, retreat to a position where one is. EMPs, flashes, laser pointers, flashbangs, burn damage, exploit their laws, etc. Borgs even (relatively) recently had a movement nerf and will now suffer a slowdown if you throw stuff at them. If you still can't beat a cyborg with all that, then genuine unironic skill issue. Get good.

A cyborg with slowdown is going to get curbstomped by the various downsides that they have no choice but to run away from. If you want to nerf one of a cyborg's strengths then you need to remove the weakness that was slapped on them to balance it out, or borg is just going to be unenjoyable to play.

[DaBoss]

Buff?

You mean nerf, yeah?

I mean let's not impliment the proposed buffs in the thread to 'compensate' because that's an awful idea.

[san7890]

Borgs have significant strengths that are balanced out by their significant weaknesses. There are going to be situations where it feels like there wasn't much you could do to stop a cyborg. There are going to be situations where the opposite is true, and the cyborg doesn't really have any options to win. I've had moments as cyborg where I pull some cyborg bullshit to beat someone who never really had a chance. I've had moments as cyborg where I am dodging lasers, running around in circles, trying to desperately let the person aiming to kill me know that I literally am not capable of fighting back.

Fighting a cyborg? Use one of their many weaknesses. If one isn't available, retreat to a position where one is. EMPs, flashes, laser pointers, flashbangs, burn damage, exploit their laws, etc. Borgs even (relatively) recently had a movement nerf and will now suffer a slowdown if you throw stuff at them. If you still can't beat a cyborg with all that, then genuine unironic skill issue. Get good.

A cyborg with slowdown is going to get curbstomped by the various downsides that they have no choice but to run away from. If you want to nerf one of a cyborg's strengths then you need to remove the weakness that was slapped on them to balance it out, or borg is just going to be unenjoyable to play.

yeah from a balance standpoint this just seems like an eternal arms race to the end of a tunnel which i don't think the codebase needs to really dredge itself with. it's ultimately whatever for headmins to futz with the config (only have to answer to players and your own disappointment) but it's not really fair to maintainers to quagmire them in more balancey balanced work as an expected (or otherwise forseen) result from toying with the config (unless some maintainer really likes incredibly swampy PRs and wants to see this pan out). i've seen how stuff like this plays out from probably every single perspective and having done all that, i wouldn't advise it from any standpoint because it might all get junked when we realize what a Pandora's Box has been opened and get everything reverted- i don't really see a great natural conclusion beyond this.

do whatever you want but just know that even though people like to spend sections of their life staring at lines of code on a screen that it's simply anti-neato behavior to drown them in controversy/incredibly high-level balance considerations that weren't ever particularly asked for (see Jacquerel's comments above on how there's no real guiding vision for cyborgs right now). I probably still wouldn't like these specific changes even if there was one but at least someone asked for it and is prepared to deal with the consequences.

[MooCow12]

Slime people are a recent example of config conflicting with balance and design.

[kieth4]

We will test this at some point, then unlock the thread for feedback.

[dragomagol]

This change has officially been in-game for 10 days.

Have you noticed? Is it better? Worse? Give your thoughts below.

[xzero314]

I do not think it has been a good change.

Conflict between sec and cyborgs is now extremely one sided. Security has no issues at all running down borgs and often just kills them anyway despite the speed advantage.

Playing as a borg feels clunky now. I noticed it instantly. I had a human sec officer race me to be sure and the difference was staggering.

And this is all just experience from piloting ai shells that I can pop out of. Being stuck as a borg with this speed is quite frankly not fun.

[TheSmallBlue]

As a borg player I feel absolutely no difference. None. Zilch. Nada.
However, I did observe a round with a malf ai and it was obvious that sec were successfully flashing borgs twice way better than before.
Again though personally I don't feel the difference

[TheRex9001]

This is pretty noticable, borgs are being flashed a lot easier than before. This doesn't usually matter a whole lot but it massively disrupts stuff during malf ai, robofactories are lot more needed now than they used to be because a horde of borgs is needed for the group durability. Its an interesting experiment though, and I enjoy the challenge of borgless malf and this might breathe some life into that idea more.

[TheLoLSwat]

the change is pretty good, the dynamics (and conflicts) between borgs and non-borgs is a lot closer to even

[Flightless]

I don't know, I kinda feel like borgs are more an environmental hazard than a combatant. This nerf feels like rebalancing characters in a fighting game, and I don't think we should use that type of logic here. Borgs SHOULD be faster than humans, because the're not a class in a fighting game, but a foil; when security is a little too barbaric, when a changeling a little too obvious, a traitor sneaky enough to reach the core- that's when borgs shine, a nigh unstoppable force ready to maintain balance and caos in equal measure. It feels silly to loose all that just to make borgs easier for tiders to 1v1.

[MooCow12]

I hate it, youre forced to fight people you cannot outrun, you cant create a gap between you and your pursuer in order to close an airlock behind you, someone who is stun immune is now a death sentence to you rather than a dangerous encounter to run from.


its even worse when youll often be chased by people who you are not allowed to harm.


This change only encourages cyborgs to behave in ways that everyone finds toxic, killing people indirectly.


It also makes silicons more at the mercy of time dilation


I tried making burn canisters on terry to use as bombs then atmos froze for the rest of the round, stopping thermomachines from heating canisters up.

If cyborgs are going to be balanced to be reliant on different aspects of the game those things better fucking work.

[DaBoss]

I don't know, I kinda feel like borgs are more an environmental hazard than a combatant. This nerf feels like rebalancing characters in a fighting game, and I don't think we should use that type of logic here. Borgs SHOULD be faster than humans, because the're not a class in a fighting game, but a foil; when security is a little too barbaric, when a changeling a little too obvious, a traitor sneaky enough to reach the core- that's when borgs shine, a nigh unstoppable force ready to maintain balance and caos in equal measure. It feels silly to loose all that just to make borgs easier for tiders to 1v1.

This just seems like you're upset that borgs don't automatically win 1v1 fights. A player being 'a nigh unstoppable force' isn't a good thing, and they still are pretty unstoppable with smart use of their enviroment which is where their strength should be. You can slow everyone else using atmos to outspeed them still, bolt/shock doors in people's faces to win any chase, and pull off incredibly unfun infinite stun combos with buckle+spin+repeat. If you fail to use all the tools in your arsenal and get beaten because of it, that's the game. Don't like it? Apply for admin.

I hate it, youre forced to fight people you cannot outrun, you cant create a gap between you and your pursuer in order to close an airlock behind you, someone who is stun immune is now a death sentence to you rather than a dangerous encounter to run from.

Haha yeah this would really suck (this is the experience of 90% of jobs when a cyborg tries to murder them prior to the speed nerf)

This change only encourages cyborgs to behave in ways that everyone finds toxic, killing people indirectly.

Nothing wrong with this. This is what robots *should* be doing, not barrelling down on people ripping them apart like a caveman. A borg filling the department with co2 to smother people when they fall unconscious is way more engaging than having a mediborg just chase you with a circular saw or haloperidol overdose syringe with nothing you can do about it because those things slow you down. Come to think of it, once you slash someone in the leg with a circular saw once they're suddenly slower than the borgs so this doesn't actually stop you doing that!

It also makes silicons more at the mercy of time dilation


I tried making burn canisters on terry to use as bombs then atmos froze for the rest of the round, stopping thermomachines from heating canisters up.

If cyborgs are going to be balanced to be reliant on different aspects of the game those things better fucking work.

irrelevant + skill issue

[Sightld2]

It's for sure noticeable. More noticeable than in my testing because my local-host doesn't account for ping and time dilation. Still, I didn't think it was annoying to play with, I haven't had a chance to observe on a more macro-level how cyborgs are winning or losing fights though.

[MooCow12]

Also does slowdown somehow impact a cyborgs ability to go through those transport tubes because i went in one with another person chasing me and getting in half a second after me and they ended up gaining on me inside the transport tube and popping out infront of me.

[Constellado]

Was it on manuel for those 10 days? because only *now* am I hearing reports and talks about it.

I am personally against it but i need to play a couple rounds of borg now that its for sure in...

[PKPenguin321]

its good

[Jacquerel]

Also does slowdown somehow impact a cyborgs ability to go through those transport tubes because i went in one with another person chasing me and getting in half a second after me and they ended up gaining on me inside the transport tube and popping out infront of me.

You should test whether being in a bad mood slows down transport tubes and/or if other slow-moving creatures like Goliaths get slow transport tubes. If this config change did then chances are this does too, and both would be a bug.

[dragomagol]

Was it on manuel for those 10 days? because only *now* am I hearing reports and talks about it.

I am personally against it but i need to play a couple rounds of borg now that its for sure in...

It's been in since Kieth's post. Mainly because I wanted to know if people would notice it without being told it was different. If we were to announce outright that we were doing it at the time of the post, I believe people would have become more sensitive to the change and not been able to give unbiased feedback, especially on something so subtle.

[DaydreamIQ]

Personally I didn't even know the change was implemented. It didn't really impact the rounds I was in so there's that

[PsychoSon]

I was asked to give my input since I am a cyborg main (I play AMBER on Manuel). I will say that this, alongside the new sounds for cyborg have made me forego playing the role altogether. I cannot believe we are not talking about the obvious inherent weakness of cyborg and silicon altogether too. Silicons are manipulable. Silicons are slaves. Save for the occasional malfunction antagonist status which truly sets them free, within the scope of the AI's objectives. People want silicons to be this neutral ground force between the station and the antagonist. So by constantly throwing wrenches into how cyborgs operate, they are losing their purpose over time.

A traitor wants me to help them escape from security? Can't do that.
Security wants me to help chase down this human-harming changeling? Can't do that.
What even is the point of playing this role anymore if we are consistently hammered into the ground like this overpowered force? We are a tool for the station to use, depending upon what laws we are given. At this point we cannot satisfy them. So we are going to be given even more shit over our pure inability to do the task. At this point I think the issue is nobody likes being on the opposing side of the silicon staff. The sad reality is at some point this will happen. The solution is to either just re-law them to your side, or use their weaknesses such as EMPs or flashes.

Sharing some more personal experience, I find it harder to do my basic tasks as an engineering cyborg. My response time to engineering emergencies have been cut short. Precious seconds that count for saving the atmosphere are lost by this nerf. It is just a major inconvenience all around when trying to simply do my job. Starting my Supermatter setup takes more time as I have to haul cans over across engineering- during a time where the station's power only lasts for a few minutes due to the new power changes.

Maybe other silicon players can get over these changes, and hell maybe I will play it still occasionally too. I just would like to point out that people love to hyper-focus on the bad aspects of silicon. Without paying attention to the good they can do.

[carshalash]

Feels vindictive to make cyborgs slower and introducing obnoxious audio whenever they try to move.

[Jacquerel]

Feels vindictive to make cyborgs slower and introducing obnoxious audio whenever they try to move.

these are unrelated changes, head admins have no power to give them moving sound effects

[JusticeGoat]

A general slow down sounds really unfun, not all of the game is based around combat. When doing something else like fixing a broken window before the tiders run in and space the area making a fire lock hell it would be frustrating.

My suggestion for a nerf that would work for this is applying a slow down when a tool of any kind is brought out such as a welder, stunarm ect.

[Higgin]

This has been good

[MooCow12]

A traitor wants me to help them escape from security? Can't do that.
Security wants me to help chase down this human-harming changeling? Can't do that.

You KIND OF can but it requires you to actively abuse everything you can as a silicon with the very few tools that you have available, mediborg can for example mix two beakers to make space lube foam, the ice snowman gimmick is dead since melbert kind of made ice not slip you to the ground anymore.

What even is the point of playing this role anymore if we are consistently hammered into the ground like this overpowered force? We are a tool for the station to use, depending upon what laws we are given. At this point we cannot satisfy them. So we are going to be given even more shit over our pure inability to do the task.

Yes there is a really big disconnect between what makes silicons better and what makes other players benefit more from silicons, most arguements ive seen against engie borgs getting some way to eventually be able to place down an atmos barrier was that it "would make engie borg op" when cyborgs dont inherently care about shitmos, them having tools to stop it is only to everyone else's benefit.

At this point I think the issue is nobody likes being on the opposing side of the silicon staff. The sad reality is at some point this will happen. The solution is to either just re-law them to your side, or use their weaknesses such as EMPs or flashes.

The problem is at the end of the day, everyone else has a much higher limit to how much they can powergame to literally be immune to everything borgs can throw at them while retaining these hardcounters that borgs cannot overcome, borgs do not have a way to speed themselves up meanwhile crew are capable of becoming entirely immune to stuns, shocks, full self regeneration, while at the same time still retaining the ability to effectively shit on cyborgs in direct combat.

Cyborgs are now at a point where they cannot run from a hulk with a flash even without that hulk even drinking a single chem to speed themselves up.

This only encourages cyborgs to double down on exactly what everyone hates about them, fighting dirty and indirectly, always having a barrier between you and them, and using their ai to track down targets so they have perfect positioning to be able to influence a situation while still being out of harm's way.

Its toxic and not fun at all to not be able to not be able to use the main halls as a cyborg just because you have a higher chance of someone not liking you and running you over with a flash while everyone else just watches and I see cyborgs ironically using maintenance a lot more for their travels just to lower the chance of running into someone who will wordlessly chase them with a flash, even antagonists are safer to be around as a cyborg half the time because they would rather stay off the ai's radar.

[zxaber]

I guess I should come back and say I don't like it, for what it's worth. I'd live with speeds being equal, but being slower feels kinda bad.