Enforce Human Authority: 0

[britgrenadier1]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Kinda curious where we are at on this. It's a topic that has been done to death, but after taking a peak through resolved topics there hasn't been an official "I want this to be changed" policy thread made. So here we are, I want this to be changed. Specifically the config option, I don't care about expanding which jobs can or cannot be non human. This isn't a "I want a code solution" thread.

Expanding the pool of available head players is a net positive for the quality of the role, and I think it would extend the length of rounds if we let competent non human statics into head roles. A lot of people cite muh lore as a reason to keep this set to 1, however our current lore says jack and shit about what species are meant to be in what roles. Old lore did, I vaguely remember there being a tidbit about lizards being heads until people on earth complained and it being rescinded afterwards.

I also don't think that there are more interesting stories that happen out of being promoted. You either get a flat yes or no with nothing that happens afterwards unless the actual head shows up. Also can't we flip this and ask about all the stories that aren't being told when there just straight up isn't a head of staff around? You'll still have promotion stories too, even nonhuman ones, its not as though these stories won't happen if we flip it on.

Turn it on for a bit, see how it goes, config stuff changes like the tide and I say we run with it for a while.

[britgrenadier1]

i don tlike it

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77876 you liked it enough to do this. any expanded thoughts on the topic?

[saprasam]

we should all be a little bit more racist

[Fikou]

i don tlike it

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77876 you liked it enough to do this. any expanded thoughts on the topic?

no

[Mothblocks]

fikou's motivations with that PR are extremely obvious in the description. he doesn't like that it's only QM, it's not that he likes non human heads. it's only ostensibly relevant. me and him disagree on this and have discussed it several times

[britgrenadier1]

fikou's motivations with that PR are extremely obvious in the description. he doesn't like that it's only QM, it's not that he likes non human heads. it's only ostensibly relevant. me and him disagree on this and have discussed it several times

given all the discussion that has been had in this thread, do you think I could convince you for the code solution route of CMO CE?

[Mothblocks]

not a chance. qm being the lone exception is interesting

[kieth4]

Not a fan at all of this. Humans being the big bosses of the station is what gives the race its flavour kind of. Wouldn't be happy 2 see this change

[dendydoom]

i'm not even a fan of the QM being a head. they had an interesting dynamic with the hop before: hop represents the interests of command and is the "technical" authority over cargo as it pertains to service, and the QM was the de facto authority because they're a working class hero who looks out for their crew. there was often a natural point of friction over this which highlighted a separation between command's authority and the reality of the station. now this is just gone.

[kieth4]

i'm not even a fan of the QM being a head. they had an interesting dynamic with the hop before: hop represents the interests of command and is the "technical" authority over cargo as it pertains to service, and the QM was the de facto authority because they're a working class hero who looks out for their crew. there was often a natural point of friction over this which highlighted a separation between command's authority and the reality of the station. now this is just gone.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Having the QM be the "cool uncle" pseudo head who had a grip on the balls of cargo that the hop could never have was awesome. Now he's just another boring head without any cool dynamics

[TheBibleMelts]

I'm against it and that is why it will not change.

to actually answer the question, it's about giving background depth to the world

as mothblocks said, NT is not a nice company and they exploit and abuse their workforce, it's important for us as head coders that this is communicated clearly to people and this is an easy way to give background depth to the type of world that ss13 inhabits.

I saw comments earlier mentioning that the split is not actually determined in the lore but that is false, the lore of tg is what is written in common core + what is mechanically enforced in game, NT discriminating against non human heads is definitively part of that lore.

Also I saw a rather silly point made earlier that player fun should come before all other points, that's obvious nonsense because taken to it's logical extreme it permits literally any change, such as antags having insta kill batons.

Game design is mostly about choosing where to apply restrictions to the set of actions players can do and where to give absolute freedom.

We've chosen in this case to place a very mild restriction, easily worked around by adding a character or slot, or trying to get promoted in game (for which there are no barriers but other players).

If you believe this totally ruins your fun, luckily ss13 is a very diverse game and there are plenty of downstreams that cater to your exact specific needs, and they will surely be quite enjoyable for you if you chafe so much at this restriction.

I'd be really ticked off if headadmins enabled this without our say so as well, because the configuration option exists soley for downstreams to make them not have to modularise that code, and is not ever intended to actually be changed without headcoders signing off on the change.

my belief that human-only heads make more interesting dynamics is only slightly outweighing my urge to be a spite gremlin about this post.

[britgrenadier1]

quote snip

my belief that human-only heads make more interesting dynamics is only slightly outweighing my urge to be a spite gremlin about this post.

You should do it, if only for a bit, just to be funny. Frankly all cards on the table I'd rather a code solution that lets some heads be non human rather than all of them. I'm here in policy discussion land for a reason though. IF and only if stories and dynamics is what is holding you back, then I'd ask what the harm is in flipping that switch for a bit, just to freshen up the dynamic. You three are headmins after all, you can flip it back whenever you'd like.

[Mothblocks]

i will close a pr that adds non human to any head of staff that isn't the qm. let the qm have this

[britgrenadier1]

i will close a pr that adds non human to any head of staff that isn't the qm. let the qm have this

We’re here in policy discussion land. Saying that you’d close any PRs related to the topic is exactly why the nuclear option was proposed.

I would really encourage you to revisit this position though. Lower level heads of staff being non human can be a fun story. Let me be an instrument of the system that oppresses my people. Let me have to fight off a ruthless AI during a revolution. There are fun dynamics here that can and should be explored. We’ve had the same stories for the past however many years I’ve played here. Let’s breathe some life in to it. There’s no pain in trying it

[TheFinalPotato]

Brother you just suggested a pr, got told no, and responded by saying that the no is an overreach (alongside some goodfaith pr arguing).

[britgrenadier1]

Brother you just suggested a pr, got told no, and responded by saying that the no is an overreach (alongside some goodfaith pr arguing).

I said that them saying they would close any PR related to it is why we're here arguing for it all to be enabled through the config. Not that it was or is an overreach. Originally I made an argument for the config, coders came in and said no, I offered a compromise through a PR, they said no, and I said that that was fine since we were here in config land anyway.

[Mothblocks]

at this point it feels like the head admins are just too nice to close the thread

[Redbert]

at this point it feels like the head admins are just too nice to close the thread

Yea, I wasn't sure what the headmin's stance was on the topic, I'm glad they chimed in.
I think I got out all my points out there, I was hoping to get a few of you guys on or closer to the non-human head side. Unfortunately it just boils down to what type of stories are more important to people, and that's not really an opinion that can be changed through argument.
I guess I'll just hold hope that opinions will change eventually, maybe in the future this thread can help fuel another discussion.

[britgrenadier1]

I think we did a pretty good job at getting the argument out and stayed away from the usual pitfalls when talking about this stuff. I didn’t think it’d change when I made the thread and wasn’t expecting it to. But hey, they don’t shoot you for trying

[NamelessFairy]

Just going to throw in my support for the poll/vote idea. Even if its just for research purposes, in particular I'd be interested to know if head players and more/less in support of this then non-head players and if non-human players would be encouraged to play heads more often if they could play the character of their choice.

[MooCow12]

Qm leads cargo which is probably the closest role to the outside world (even though in actuality youre only trading with/through nanotrasen) so it kind of makes sense for it to be allowed to be nonhuman for anyone working the shuttles or trading goods to see that nanotrasen "supports nonhuman rights" , its not a public representative but its the closest thing to it, a single job that is likely to be seen from time to time.


There we go i fabricated lore to fit the status quo, its not so hard.

[britgrenadier1]

Qm leads cargo which is probably the closest role to the outside world (even though in actuality youre only trading with/through nanotrasen) so it kind of makes sense for it to be allowed to be nonhuman for anyone working the shuttles or trading goods to see that nanotrasen "supports nonhuman rights" , its not a public representative but its the closest thing to it, a single job that is likely to be seen from time to time.


There we go i fabricated lore to fit the status quo, its not so hard.

The station doesn’t trade with anyone. When the QM sends things on the cargo shuttle it’s going to centcom. The station budget is increased when items are recycled or plasma is sent back because it’s a plasma research station (Everyone has forgotten that that is why we’re here). Anyway this was addressed back a page or two. Secret research station, no media would be allowed close or be able to cover it.

Pivoting away from the lore stuff for a moment to jump back on the gameplay stuff. We’ve got a lot of good points brought up in the earlier pages about expanding the pool of active players who take on these roles, and also stuff about introducing new avenues for rp and story without infringing too much on existing ones. If there is any more discussion to be had on those points I’d love to hear em. Also thread revival I know.

[TheLoLSwat]

i think it really just boils down to if 2/3 of the headmins want to change the aesthetic of human-centric command.

[Vekter]

i think it really just boils down to if 2/3 of the headmins want to change the aesthetic of human-centric command.

It's going to be the new "rainbow assistant" config choice that just changes every term

[TheLoLSwat]

i think it really just boils down to if 2/3 of the headmins want to change the aesthetic of human-centric command.

It's going to be the new "rainbow assistant" config choice that just changes every term

maybe im tripping but i think it would be cool if this gets revisited every term in a policy discussion so we can see how the playerbase opinions change

[britgrenadier1]

i think it really just boils down to if 2/3 of the headmins want to change the aesthetic of human-centric command.

It's going to be the new "rainbow assistant" config choice that just changes every term

maybe im tripping but i think it would be cool if this gets revisited every term in a policy discussion so we can see how the playerbase opinions change

that would indeed be cool. Should run a poll too

[DrAmazing343]

maybe im tripping but i think it would be cool if this gets revisited every term in a policy discussion so we can see how the playerbase opinions change

-mythical triple-quote-snip-

I think re-running polls/discussions about this every term is a good idea. As annoying as it may become to some folks, it's important to recognize our new blood and our changing playerbase(s) and their opinions on old "settled" issues. Even if it were as informal as a player re-dropping a Policy thread, I think it'd be good for the health of policy discussions overall.

Anyway, enforce human authority 0. Let the non-humans say fuck.

[TheSmallBlue]

I dont think I'm the sole person that ONLY uses their static, right? I've given doing other characters a shot but It hasn't felt right.

Anyways, way way waaay back when felinids did not exist (or i did not know of them, i dont remember how long ago this was) I used to mainly play HoP.
I love playing HoP, it's my favorite job in the entire game, I love filling up paperwork and I love the interactions with the rest of the crew.
However one day I decided to make my static a felinid. And when I tried to play HoP again I realized, oh shit im not a cat anymore.

So I was faced with a conondrum if I wanted to keep playing HoP, I could either
1. Make my static human again (not happening you cat once you cat forever)
2. Make up an RP reason as to why the usual felinid is a human now
3. Dont start the round as an HoP, instead try to get it via RP as a felinid.

I've tried option 2 for a while. People kept asking "damn bluti wherent you a felinid" and i said stuff like "oh haha yeah im clipping my ears down to be incognito" but I never really liked it. It only took one guy to look at my medical records or look at my scanner to create a situation that I. wasn't really comfortable with. I wanted to roleplay as a felinid but the actual game mechanics forbid me from doing that. So I stopped.

Nowadays if I wanna play HoP, I make sure there's no one set to HoP as round-start and go felinid assistant, buy a suit, paste a resumé (that i have at the ready) into a piece of paper, and ask the cap into the HoP line where I give them my resumé show them my suit and hope they say yes to giving me HoP.
I don't dislike this! It's fun, I like the situations it has generated! But like. Man is it fallible. What if the captain is too busy or just doesn't care? What if there's no captain? Hell what if there are NO HEADS? What if the HoP desk is blown up? What if I just can't bother with it one day?

These things happen often, so it ends up common that I just. Don't bother most days. And I actively miss out on playing my favorite job.

To sum up: I love being HOP. I love being a felinid. My static is tied to being a felinid, and being an hop is tied to my static, but being an hop is contradictory to being a felinid. So even though I love HOP I cannot play it.

ON THE OTHER HAND I do like the lore implications of Nanotrasen being spaceist, it makes sense for a shitty gigantic corporation. Though maybe it isnt a bad idea to tone it down a bit?
Keep the captain human, basically. Imply that nanotrasen gives humans an inherent superiority, since only humans can be captain.

[kinnebian]

in enabling non human heads i feel we would be losing a unique element of tg that i know for a fact is a very appealing factor to some people

[Ezel]

Ai law 2 kill lizard captain

[Vekter]

in enabling non human heads i feel we would be losing a unique element of tg that i know for a fact is a very appealing factor to some people

I think one of the things that confuses me is that I'm not really sure why some people find it that appealing. Is it something people actually come to /tg/ for? If so, why? Because the only reason I can think of is "so they can pretend to be racists without actually being racist" and that seems confusing and not right.

[TheSmallBlue]

Because the only reason I can think of is "so they can pretend to be racists without actually being racist" and that seems confusing and not right.

I mean. I'm not saying that is it but from what I've seen from back-reading this thread is that people that want to keep it as-is have two stances, either they want to keep it because they want to provide background to the world via mechanics (as Oranges said), OR they say that keeping the heads human "gives tg station its charm" and "makes it appealing", and its this second group of people that makes me squirm a little bit.
If you boil down the entire discussion it comes down to the question of "should humans keep their racial superiority at the cost of less people playing heads of staff?" and in that context what some people say is. odd!

"Humans being the big bosses of the station is what gives the race its flavour kind of."
So one of the pros of being human is being racially superior? Isn't it weird to actively want that?

"we would be losing a unique element of tg that i know for a fact is a very appealing factor to some people"
Is racial superiority really an "unique element" worth keeping? What people would find being racially superior appealing?

I may be strawmanning tbh

[kinnebian]

I obviously dont advocate for any form of racial supremacy, jesus christ
I like human supremacy in TG because it creates a better setting; that being it creates conflict on its own and makes a for a less sanitized place; i think that is interesting!

[kinnebian]

in enabling non human heads i feel we would be losing a unique element of tg that i know for a fact is a very appealing factor to some people

I think one of the things that confuses me is that I'm not really sure why some people find it that appealing. Is it something people actually come to /tg/ for? If so, why? Because the only reason I can think of is "so they can pretend to be racists without actually being racist" and that seems confusing and not right.

Why do people enjoy dystopian fiction? Why do people play 4X games and become dictators?

[feaster]

So one of the pros of being human is being racially superior? Isn't it weird to actively want that?

Why would that be weird(and what do you mean by weird)?

[TheRex9001]

Humans being the only heads of staff isnt making humans ”racially superior”, if you percieve people in power as inherently superior without merits I implore you to reconsider. NT is a very flawed and evil company and I think them not allowing non-human heads is because they are xenophobic and thats not a good thing. Let NT be a bit evil, they own your soul and this is meant to be a metal deathtrap. Calling people racist because they like this bit of flavor in their settings is wild. Its not like its admin actionable either to promote someone, and every hop or captain has the option to do so and their answer to it can create some great tension.

[TheSmallBlue]

Humans being the only heads of staff isnt making humans ”racially superior”, if you percieve people in power as inherently superior without merits I implore you to reconsider. NT is a very flawed and evil company and I think them not allowing non-human heads is because they are xenophobic and thats not a good thing. Let NT be a bit evil, they own your soul and this is meant to be a metal deathtrap. Calling people racist because they like this bit of flavor in their settings is wild.

Woah hold on I never said I didn't like NT being evil and xenophobic, hell I said the opposite in my other post, what I did say is that there are people in this thread that are pro keeping current human authority and that their sole reason why was a vague "it gives the human race its flavour" and "its an unique and appealing element of tg" and that I found that a bit weird

[kinnebian]

Humans being the only heads of staff isnt making humans ”racially superior”, if you percieve people in power as inherently superior without merits I implore you to reconsider. NT is a very flawed and evil company and I think them not allowing non-human heads is because they are xenophobic and thats not a good thing. Let NT be a bit evil, they own your soul and this is meant to be a metal deathtrap. Calling people racist because they like this bit of flavor in their settings is wild.

Woah hold on I never said I didn't like NT being evil and xenophobic, hell I said the opposite in my other post, what I did say is that there are people in this thread that are pro keeping current human authority and that their sole reason why was a vague "it gives the human race its flavour" and "its an unique and appealing element of tg" and that I found that a bit weird

weird how?
its unique in that most downstreams or alternatives to TG allow for non human heads
its appealing for those who want to play in a setting with a more dystopian NT
therefore, it is a unique and appealing element of tg

[TheLoLSwat]

its funny coming up with silly slurs towards 6 ft tall lizards and moths, and I think it only really gets weird if you (the person being racist) take it too seriously. Be over the top. Be silly. Use logical fallacies whenever possible to defend your anti-felinid stances

[dendydoom]

Be silly. Use logical fallacies whenever possible to defend your anti-felinid stances

this is the key to success, not to use it as an opportunity to play a thiny veiled analogue to a real racist, but rather to have the power to turn it into entertaining and self-aware satire. which is a running theme throughout the entire setting: a dystopia so steeped in its own hubris and smug self satisfaction that it threatens to collapse in on itself. it's like putting a funhouse mirror up to one of those 1950s utopian pulp fiction sci-fis where humanity always triumphs and builds white picket fences on mars. progress! future! human supremacy! no lizard captains!

[britgrenadier1]

Be silly. Use logical fallacies whenever possible to defend your anti-felinid stances

this is the key to success, not to use it as an opportunity to play a thiny veiled analogue to a real racist, but rather to have the power to turn it into entertaining and self-aware satire. which is a running theme throughout the entire setting: a dystopia so steeped in its own hubris and smug self satisfaction that it threatens to collapse in on itself. it's like putting a funhouse mirror up to one of those 1950s utopian pulp fiction sci-fis where humanity always triumphs and builds white picket fences on mars. progress! future! human supremacy! no lizard captains!

You can still do this with non human command staff, but we never get this level of depth or satire either. Everyone just does the minimal effort stuff that amounts to a shit excuse to grief someone for the lulz. I’d rather a chance at new stories and avenues than the ones we’ve seen and done a million times.

[Higgin]

lot of mixed and not entirely connected thoughts about this after a while

1. if code-server separation is an actual principle here, any discussion of developer intent does not matter. it'd be nice for there to be harmony, but if there's a better case for running the game in a way contrary to design for the game to be more fun, it has to carry. we're interested in fun games, not just any developer's vision. if there's a political compromise being made around that ("run a less fun game for it to be one i want to keep developing/supporting") we should get that out on the table now.

2. i think the move to approach this as a policy/config issue is exactly because if you approach the deliberate in-setting injustice as an IC issue every round, there can still be no lasting victory even if the case is that pretty much everyone agrees asimov is dumb and speciesism isn't doing much work for interesting rounds. even if it becomes routine to change the laws or promote nonhuman heads every round, then it just becomes routine, expected, and you ask the reasonable question, "what end does it even serve having these be the defaults/privileging humans?" so it'd be nice to either A) be able to change it in a lasting, felt way, which is what is being asked for here, or B) know that any sort of lasting change is entirely off the table for one reason or another

3. i don't think anyone wants nonhumans to do the other kind of routine and repetition which is, if not getting promoted and refusing to give it up like mb talked about,
-striking or being maliciously compliant if not promoted/the AI being left on asimov
-cutting cams and disabling AI control as a default
-not helping silicons in need, or uncooperative human command

I mean we can. I've flirted with it - it's certainly a reasonable IC response to the current conditions if a cyborg or AI can at-will or with no real check just kill you for showing up at work one day, and if the people in charge are just cool with that.

should this be the normal mode of play? if things can't change in a lasting manner as a matter of policy, how far can we go in-game - and if we can't, how the fuck can it be argued that human authority 1* and asimov do any more than give a mindless advantage to human players and silicons playing with each other and punching down at nonhumans?

this is sort of my line in a lot of places, but it's less the problem of the starting conditions being unfair than it is the problem of being able to do Something, Anything to change them or punch back - but should we ask that nonhumans come up to the line of nonantag law changes or actively resisting every round in order for it to be so?

that maximizes the choice and keeps the conflict if allowed. if disallowed, then, how about we put it to a vote instead?

[Higgin]

It can be great if it's self-aware, but there are hard edges to it where the privilege it offers is not to do something symbolic and recognized as a goof by both sides, but to get a hard mechanical leg over other players and be a dick.

even thoughtful satire with a clarity of purpose has trouble in that setting, as it does IRL when what it's satirizing is punching down against a marginal group, or exalting a predominant group - i'm not saying people can't or shouldn"t be trying, but it's difficult to parse the intent and the impact without pairing off "stereotype punching bag nonhuman" with "cornball regressive racist human" 1:1 - that's a rare dynamic to find pristine in the wild

[Higgin]

Why do people enjoy dystopian fiction? Why do people play 4X games and become dictators?

serious answer, but there's a difference between "fiction within dystopia/crapsack world" vs. "fiction in which you are the executor/beneficiary of the dystopia/crapsack world"

in the case of the former, often the appeal is that the dystopia contains all the fucked up, alienating, disempowering forces and anxieties of your time, but they're put with names, and faces, and purposes, and a presence you can frustrate and destroy, or escape, or have a romance/redemption/humanity in spite of

sometimes those "forces" in dystopian fiction are actually marginal groups or scapegoats and the dystopia is part of a false consciousness meant to direct your emotional satisfaction/anger away from power

the latter is sometimes a power fantasy, it's a consequenceless way to try out how it feels "being bad," sometimes it's just the more fun way to play and engage with what the game has to offer as a test of skill/use of player freedom (edit for ex: think of any immersive sim where how you play has moral implications, like dishonored or deus ex - it's fun to fuck shit up!) - it doesn't necessarily make anyone a racist to play a textually racist character - but sometimes it certainly comes from a place where people have irl beef with racial outgroups and are taking advantage of a safe space to vent it. there's a lot of human psychology that rewards group distinction and group competition, and punishing/punching out at people you're told it's okay to treat like shit or abuse - some of that tendency is getting sublimated at least for some, certainly not all, but yea

edit: part of the problem with the current setup is that there is nothing liberatory, solidaristic, or satisfying about the fantasy it offers - unless you're playing from the privileged position, intentionally playing to be a foil for the people who benefit from it, or you're out to find the limits of how hard you can push back on the setting.

[BrianBackslide]

Nonhumans shouldn't be heads because the drip would be too strong.

[TheLoLSwat]

It can be great if it's self-aware, but there are hard edges to it where the privilege it offers is not to do something symbolic and recognized as a goof by both sides, but to get a hard mechanical leg over other players and be a dick.

even thoughtful satire with a clarity of purpose has trouble in that setting, as it does IRL when what it's satirizing is punching down against a marginal group, or exalting a predominant group - i'm not saying people can't or shouldn"t be trying, but it's difficult to parse the intent and the impact without pairing off "stereotype punching bag nonhuman" with "cornball regressive racist human" 1:1 - that's a rare dynamic to find pristine in the wild

I think the point of satirical human stances is to be the joke. Punching down on a species of 6' lizards and moths is just funny, and pointing out differences (that ultimately dont matter objectively because people dont even remember the actual code benefits and drawbacks) to flaunt your superiority makes you look like a fool when it leads to you being denied medical help or something similar.

Also I dont believe its anything near similar to actual well done IRL satires like everybody hates chris or the boondocks. It would be closer to an 8 panel comic strip with a clear villain that gets their comeuppance at the end big or small IMO. If it is happening and the person is getting a little too close to home, its either bwoinkable or an admin would be fine with you dumpstering them within reason

[TheBibleMelts]

i'm putting old yeller here down, catch the sequel next term.