Nerf Forensics

[blackdav123]

Picture this: You are a highly trained and skilled detective marching onto the scene of a crime! You carefully scan each and every bit of evidence and find something with prints on it. You find no fingerprints, but are lucky enough to find a single strand of fiber from a person's clothing! Your scanner tells you it is a "Blue Suit Fiber". CASE CLOSED! KNOW WHY? BECAUSE ONLY ONE PERSON HAS A BLUE SUIT ON AND ITS THAT DAMN LAWYER!

Forensic scanner is way too good at what it does. Even if a person is smart enough to cover their fingerprints, the fiber analysis is extremely specific and at worst will give you a job to narrow the perp down to and at best will give you a unique fiber instantly ending the case 9/10 times.

I propose we nerf this to only give the color of fiber, so that instead of "roboticist jumpsuit" or "blue suit" it just gives black or blue fibers.

By nerfing this tool we add more opportunities for detectives to need to interrogate people, and hopefully cut back on the instakill nature of forensics as it currently is.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Roald Dahl already covered this in "Lambs to the Slaughter" where a housewife cooks and eats the murder weapon of a frozen leg of lamb. I agree but for the case the current method which the weapon is retrieved from coroner work is extremely lazy (this is after seeing the code not blind speculation) and can be easily spoofed to make the in such case examples of deep-frying the murder weapon or just getting a last hit with something inconsequential.

Should least demand you dissect the body and assess a log of all brute trauma with a approximate size of the weapon along with any tells to put emphasis on more stealthy weapons. Shovels leave bruising of a "shovel-head" that permeates 5 layers into the head cavity etc, not just counting the times struck arbitarily but the damage it caused per hit being noticably logged. Stuff like that, or the insertion point for a intravenous sleepy pen.

[blackdav123]

Roald Dahl already covered this in "Lambs to the Slaughter" where a housewife cooks and eats the murder weapon of a frozen leg of lamb. I agree but for the case the current method which the weapon is retrieved from coroner work is extremely lazy (this is after seeing the code not blind speculation) and can be easily spoofed to make the in such case examples of deep-frying the murder weapon or just getting a last hit with something inconsequential.

Should least demand you dissect the body and assess a log of all brute trauma with a approximate size of the weapon along with any tells to put emphasis on more stealthy weapons. Shovels leave bruising of a "shovel-head" that permeates 5 layers into the head cavity etc, not just counting the times struck arbitarily but the damage it caused per hit being noticably logged. Stuff like that, or the insertion point for a intravenous sleepy pen.

I have no clue what any of this is saying but I agree

[Capsandi]

I forget if its only detectives who can see what sort of shoe made a bloody footprint, of course nobody uses this because detecting is for goobers who dont want to kill some guy for putting up red posters

[TheFinalPotato]

I'd like to make forensics more interesting/a smoother system to interact with. I think it's too clunky and slow to keep up with the rest of the game, outside of gottchas like you describe.
It's not useful to discuss how to nerf it, s more useful to discuss how to change it to improve its usefulness without making it an instant gottcha.

Instant gottchas aren't fun. Nerfing is a spook, this game isn't balanced, stop talking about it like it is.

[TheSmallBlue]

The TM'd coroner job is the kind of thing I'd like to see on a new, revamped detective, more in-depth systems.

Right now the best you can do is scan blood, scan door, scan hallway, scan graffiti, which I think somewhat sucks and takes you away from the immerssion of being an actual detective.

Maybe it'd be worth it to make these more involved, like, instead of having the analyzer for anything, you have a limited amount of fingerprint powder for you to check corpses/doors with, so you better use them on places in which you are convinced that there are going to be prints, otherwise you just wasted your ability to dust for prints.
If that's too complicated then maybe doing something as simple as removing DNA strings from the sec records console and adding a (limited) DNA scanning feature to the analyzer might be enough to like, give an impulse to the "wow im actually investigating" feeling.

[blackdav123]

If that's too complicated then maybe doing something as simple as removing DNA strings from the sec records console and adding a (limited) DNA scanning feature to the analyzer might be enough to like, give an impulse to the "wow im actually investigating" feeling.

this is such a small change but would completely change how detective plays for the better

testing suspects dnas, matching blood samples to identify the victim and perp, and narrowing things down rather than checking the console to instantly locate the traitor

[CMDR_Gungnir]

If that's too complicated then maybe doing something as simple as removing DNA strings from the sec records console and adding a (limited) DNA scanning feature to the analyzer might be enough to like, give an impulse to the "wow im actually investigating" feeling.

this is such a small change but would completely change how detective plays for the better

testing suspects dnas, matching blood samples to identify the victim and perp, and narrowing things down rather than checking the console to instantly locate the traitor

The problem with this is that there are a lot of antags who just disappear. They're not in their workplace and they only pass through the halls briefly on the way from Stealth Objective to Stealth Objective.

The problem is that you can't nerf forensics without destroying it. It's very all or nothing at the moment, and if you remove the all, you're only left with nothing.

What we need instead is to add more tools, so that you could get away with doing other things. Give us a way to investigate bloodstains that have been removed with lumenol and blacklights and stuff, and then you can get away with tweaking or removing the other tools.

And for the problem in the OP: I would simply change my outfit. Just don't wear the blue suit.

[BeeSting12]

Yeah this is really a skill issue. There isn't always a good detective so people forget forensics exists until a skilled detective is the reason you get caught. If you actually don't want to get caught doing something, wear a disguise and gloves while doing it. Always down for more forensics stuff though, I think the autopsy changes will be very interesting and allow for some team work between the coroner/detective

[blackdav123]

And for the problem in the OP: I would simply change my outfit. Just don't wear the blue suit.

Yeah this is really a skill issue. There isn't always a good detective so people forget forensics exists until a skilled detective is the reason you get caught. If you actually don't want to get caught doing something, wear a disguise and gloves while doing it. Always down for more forensics stuff though, I think the autopsy changes will be very interesting and allow for some team work between the coroner/detective

I agree with these. It IS a skill issue, but unfortunately it is just another gear check like always wearing sunglasses or insuls. These are things experienced players would have zero issue with, but to new players this just makes them the recipient of orbital bombardment any time a detective finds their crime scene. If the detective had to manually rule out targets by having someone submit their DNA/fingerprints with the detective scanner rather than it all being on record by default, then there would be a lot more intuition in the system allowing the new player to know that they're fucked when they are asked to submit their fingerprints rather than a secret ":s jane doe has prints on all this shit go get her" that results in the end of their round.

The problem with this is that there are a lot of antags who just disappear. They're not in their workplace and they only pass through the halls briefly on the way from Stealth Objective to Stealth Objective.

These people likely are already not interacting with the forensics system. Whether it is latex gloves or a bar of soap, they'll find a way to prevent themselves from being found out. I personally think this change would help even more against these types of players because there is more incentive to stop these randoms in the halls to ask for a fingerprint scan, rather than waiting for the person with a big W next to them to finally show up in the halls.

What is important is giving players that do not want to go to these lengths more breathing room so that traitor isnt locked into a system where the only traitors are the super loud/quiet ones and the dead ones.

All of the detective's work is currently doable by any HOS or sec officer just as easily by grabbing the detective's scanner. Creating a dedicated niche for detective to interrogate people for their fingerprints (and other identifiers) without having to worry about making arrests or actually managing criminals like a HOS or sec officer would is much healthier for the role than leaving it as an alternate sec officer outfit with a gun.

[BeeSting12]

The way I see the "collect finger prints from the crew" angle going is getting shoved by every tider you ask and then they run. Then you get to spend the next 10 minutes chasing down a tider who is certainly just messing with you.

This is possibly the most minimal of all gear checks - new clothes and gloves aren't difficult to find. Nearly every department has access to gloves, and budget insulated gloves can be found in public areas. There's no excuse for having your fingerprints show up anywhere besides being careless. There's a locker full of grey jumpsuits in dorms which is as anonymous as it gets. Part of being robust in ss13 is knowing what gear you need for various situations and how to find it. This really just makes it easier to be careless.

To nerf what you're talking about in the OP I don't think it would be a big issue to categorize fibers by color rather than clothing item. No reason why the detective should know if the white fiber came from the scientist's lab coat versus the medical jumpsuit. It would however be a lot of work to categorize each clothing item's color.

[blackdav123]

The way I see the "collect finger prints from the crew" angle going is getting shoved by every tider you ask and then they run. Then you get to spend the next 10 minutes chasing down a tider who is certainly just messing with you.

Ideally if we went with this approach you wouldnt need to search everyone because you'd have at least one clothing type to be looking for, like a grey jumpsuit.

You also wouldnt be required to directly scan someone, as your target would always be leaving new fingerprints and DNA so you could just find them in the bar and scan their drinking glass or the airlock they left through to match the DNA to the one from the crime scene. (This is also a thing real detectives do to match people to the crimes they've committed without having to get the evidence from them directly.)

This is possibly the most minimal of all gear checks - new clothes and gloves aren't difficult to find. Nearly every department has access to gloves, and budget insulated gloves can be found in public areas. There's no excuse for having your fingerprints show up anywhere besides being careless. There's a locker full of grey jumpsuits in dorms which is as anonymous as it gets. Part of being robust in ss13 is knowing what gear you need for various situations and how to find it. This really just makes it easier to be careless.

I wont disagree with this but the main reason I dislike this gear check compared to flashes or insuls is that when you get caught out by not having those, you'll know it. The flash will stun you and the shocked door will electrocute you. To a new player, fingerprints are completely invisible unlike the other gear checks and they could lose many many times before somebody finally tells them that the reason they lost was because of fingerprints. If being asked to submit fingerprints was normal, this would organically introduce them as a concept to new players.

To nerf what you're talking about in the OP I don't think it would be a big issue to categorize fibers by color rather than clothing item. No reason why the detective should know if the white fiber came from the scientist's lab coat versus the medical jumpsuit. It would however be a lot of work to categorize each clothing item's color.

Agreed, I just really really like TheSmallBlue's idea and think both could be added to make detective a much more interesting and interactive job.

[FantasticFwoosh]

The way I see the "collect finger prints from the crew" angle going is getting shoved by every tider you ask and then they run. Then you get to spend the next 10 minutes chasing down a tider who is certainly just messing with you.

Wear a fingerprint reactive coat, so they get catalogued when they push and go. Just a suit-attachment that deals in monitoring the biodata of who last touched you or any fiber details.

Not really useful if someone is attacking you, but if its ignored after you're dead its valuable data.

[Cobby]

what do you do when they say no, arrest them?

A lot of the allure of playing detective gets lost in ss13 because you want to pull clues but there are no motives for killing people besides the game (or the bbeg company) said so. What you want is to play something like shadows of doubt when all you can get from the SS13 version is fingerprints, fibers, and RARELY (lol) messages left by the player if they decide to have fun.

You almost want to generate an antag with RP requirements a la devil that can only kill in the frame of a MO

[blackdav123]

what do you do when they say no, arrest them?

already answered this:

You also wouldnt be required to directly scan someone, as your target would always be leaving new fingerprints and DNA so you could just find them in the bar and scan their drinking glass or the airlock they left through to match the DNA to the one from the crime scene. (This is also a thing real detectives do to match people to the crimes they've committed without having to get the evidence from them directly.)

(this is already in the game but nobody needs to use it because fingerprints are so freely available in sec records)

[Cobby]

And if they wear gloves that they never take off? I dont think its unrealistic to get to a point where someone is refusing to cooperating and passively obstructing by hiding their DNA even if not on purpose, there are plenty of reasons to wear gloves and other clothing ingame and theres also very little reason to take them off.

[blackdav123]

And if they wear gloves that they never take off? I dont think its unrealistic to get to a point where someone is refusing to cooperating and passively obstructing by hiding their DNA even if not on purpose, there are plenty of reasons to wear gloves and other clothing ingame and theres also very little reason to take them off.

then just arrest them. you clearly already suspect this person of being your target, so just arrest them. fingerprints and DNA shouldnt be an instant gotcha but instead one tool in a detective's arsenal to help figure out who did something and narrow down suspects.

someone who puts on gloves after the fact shouldnt be nuked because they accidentally touched floor under heretic rift #6

I can imagine tons of ways to get DNA/blood sample/fingerprints out of someone that dont require an obedient target. The main point is that none of these matter or would need to be used because forensics is completely free in the sec records and medical records. No effort required to figure out your target, just scan and call out "Joe bob is the heretic".

[MooCow12]

If forensics was harder or took more time i dont think people would use it nearly as much.

Antags have ways to spoof it, wearing gloves that arnt of your own department and then hiding them away when you are in the clear is a good way to waste sec`s time.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Does this scratch the itch?

[blackdav123]

Does this scratch the itch?

very nice, I also like the idea of bomb fragments