[<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

Maxoess · Post by **Maxoess** » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:41 pm #668717

BYOND account: Maxoess
Character name: Owen McShain
Ban type: Server/Role(s)/OOC/etc
Ban length: 2 day server ban, week chef role ban.
Ban reason: You have been banned by Coconutwarrior97 from Roles: Cook.
Reason: As the chef ahelped a situation where the captain had entered their kitchen and picked up some food, leading to them throwing the cap out and a continuing conflict with the captain using some lethal lasers. Normally this would make sense for escalation, however after talking with other administrators Ive found this is not the first time you've hoarded food in the kitchen leading to people entering the kitchen to get said food. This is effectively a form of baiting as when folks are hungry and you aren't providing them with food at a price that a good number of people can reasonably afford
This ban is temporary, it will be removed in 1 week. The round ID is 201508.
Time ban was placed: 03-09-2023 18:19:21
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 201508
Your side of the story:

I'd just be repeating what I said in the ticket so I'd rather just post it. Other than that it seems people use ''me need pay credits'' as an excuse to escalate really heavily. To the point of grenade bombings or in this example the captain using his personal laser to laser 3 different individuals, 2 of which had nothing to do with the situation.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think this is kind of silly. Food is not that vital, it's avaible throughout the station with plenty of other methods really easily (cargo, public botany, botany, vending machines). A lot of times it's the exact same people who attack the kitchen for charging some credits for food. It seems more like an 'excuse' to escalate violence. If the Chef job really just comes down to making food and handing it out for free to people who just walk up and yell ''FOOD!!'' or throw chairs at you, that's a bit sad.
Anything else we should know: This kinda just sets a precedent that you can murderhobo people who charge credits for a service. I asked what rules were broken and I got no response to that. I'd like a headmin review of this.

Coconutwarrior97 · Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:51 pm

This ban was primarily about your conduct in a greater context, not this round on its own. I was informed by multiple other admins that you do this pretty constantly, one providing some logs they had on hand:

Spoiler:

You create a situation where people go into your kitchen for food, then throw them out with CQC. Since this is a frequent thing it gives the strong impression that its a form of baiting. Your history is also very important here, given that it shows a trend of messy escalation as a chef:

Spoiler:

To talk about the round in question you opened a ticket here,

Spoiler:

To say he is escalating without any reason at all is blatantly false, he came in to get food, a fact Im sure you're aware of.
So what this all boils down to is you continually using your department as a chef to bait people in for escalation fights. Then making an ahelp claiming that the captain was escalating for no reason, when in fact there clearly was a reason.
A very blatant violation of Rule 7,

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7. If you regularly come close to breaking the rules without actually breaking them, it will be treated as the rules being broken.
Repeated instances of the same rules being broken may be met with harsher consequences. Baiting people into situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.

As well as a precedent regarding Rule 6,

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Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly.

At this point in time I don't see a reason to lift this ban.

Maxoess · Post by **Maxoess** » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:47 pm #668950

I'm not sure where in the ticket I lied. I explained my side from it. I mentioned he said ''touch me again and I'll kill you'' when I was in the midst of removing him. After I physically threw him out, he grabbed his gun from the other side of the table and lasering me and others who were in the vicinity after, fucking up the other cook as well who was an intern. You're grasping for straws if you really want to accuse me of lying because I said ''for no actual reason''. It's clear I meant that lasering some one to death because they grab and throw you over a counter, out of their workplace is not an actual reason to escalate like that.

Most of the time I don't ahelp when things turn shady. I'd rather just not be bothered with the hassle of it and mostly prefer to deal with things IC. However a while back I was told to ahelp instead of escalating in situations like this. As well the round before a non-antag ran up to the kitchen to bomb it, killing myself and the other cook while blowing a hole in the station. Very based, but it left kind of a sour taste so I decided perhaps it was wise to just ahelp the situation with the captain instead of letting it snowball in the inevitable shitshow it would turn into and leave it to the admins if this was allowed or not. Apparently it is and I was to be banned because I made the mistake of ahelping.

Coconutwarrior97 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:51 pm This ban was primarily about your conduct in a greater context, not this round on its own. I was informed by multiple other admins that you do this pretty constantly, one providing some logs they had on hand:

Spoiler:

That was a joke I made to an intern cook I was playing with. A bit sad some one's been sitting on that one to use in the future.

Other than that I have said most I wanted to say already in the ticket that I posted a link of in my original comment in this thread.

I would like to request a headmin review as mentioned in my original comment.

Post by **Archie700** » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:17 pm #669234

Attack logs between Owen and Rafael (the captain)

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05:31:08	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:08	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) aggressively (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:10	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) restrained (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:18	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) disarmed (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:25	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) pressured (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 100)	(124, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:26	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(123, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:26	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) aggressively (NEWHP: 100)	(123, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:27	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) thrown EnburN/(Rafael Collins) grab from tile in Kitchen (121,158,2) towards tile at Cafeteria (128,158,2) (NEWHP: 100)	(121, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:27	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) has thrown Rafael Collins	(121, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:38	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 95.5)	(126, 159, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:40	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 95.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:42	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 95.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:42	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) shot Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: 95.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:42	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) suffered: Third Degree Burns to head | Damage: 25 (rolled 52/90.5975) | BWB: 40	(120, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:43	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 70.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:43	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) shot Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: 70.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:43	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) suffered: Catastrophic Burns to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 84/116.942) | BWB: 40	(120, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:44	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 40.5)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:34:30	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) stun attacked Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)	(121, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:31	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) attacked (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 89.4)	(120, 159, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:31	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) sweeped (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 66.4)	(120, 159, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:31	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) CQCs (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 76.4)	(120, 159, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:32	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) kicked (CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 62.1)	(120, 159, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:32	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) knocked out (Head kick)(CQC) EnburN/(Rafael Collins) (NEWHP: 62.1)	(120, 159, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:34	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) stun attacked EnburN/(Rafael Collins) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 62.1)	(120, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:49	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) passive grab (NEWHP: 74.7)	(121, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:49	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) grabbed EnburN/(Rafael Collins) aggressively (NEWHP: 74.7)	(121, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:53	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) thrown EnburN/(Rafael Collins) grab from tile in Kitchen (124,161,2) towards tile at Fore Primary Hallway (132,160,2) (NEWHP: 77.9)	(124, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:34:53	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) has thrown Rafael Collins	(124, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:35:33	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 100)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:35:37	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 100)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:35:41	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 100)	(126, 161, 2)	Cafeteria
05:35:43	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) fired at Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser from Cafeteria (NEWHP: 100)	(126, 162, 2)	Cafeteria
05:35:43	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) shot Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: 100)	(126, 162, 2)	Cafeteria
05:35:43	ATTACK	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) suffered: Third Degree Burns to right arm | Damage: 25 (rolled 85/90.5975) | BWB: 40	(120, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:35:45	ATTACK	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) shot Maxoess/(Owen McShain) with the hellfire laser (NEWHP: 81.3)	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria

Say logs of Rafael and Owen during the fight

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05:31:17	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "touch me again and you die"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:31	EMOTE	Vladimir Russo/(monkey (783)) points at Rafael Collins	(131, 158, 2)	Fore Primary Hallway
05:31:31	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "told you"	(127, 158, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:51	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "i said"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:52	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "touch me"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:53	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "and die"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:55	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "he touched me"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:31:59	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "so he gave me permission"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:32:08	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "i asked for permission"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:32:09	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "he gave it"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:32:14	EMOTE	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) claps.	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:32:26	EMOTE	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) points at Rafael Collins	(121, 162, 2)	Kitchen
05:32:29	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "are you done being a bitch"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria
05:33:32	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "Chef i demand you give me food"	(126, 161, 2)	Cafeteria
05:33:50	SAY	EnburN/(Rafael Collins) "no"	(126, 160, 2)	Cafeteria

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05:31:12	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "excuse you"	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:16	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "please dont just take"	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:18	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "thats rude"	(122, 157, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:31	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "stealing"	(124, 160, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:32	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "is"	(124, 160, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:33	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "a violation"	(124, 160, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:34	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "of space law"	(124, 160, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:42	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "being the captain"	(120, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:31:43	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "doesnt mena"	(120, 161, 2)	Kitchen
05:32:26	EMOTE	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) points at Rafael Collins	(121, 162, 2)	Kitchen
05:32:27	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "cringe"	(121, 162, 2)	Kitchen

Logs regarding Owen repeating his gimmick

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04:47:14	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "I make money the honest way pal"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:47:17	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "im a merchant of good cuisine"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:47:37	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "hey gunner"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:47:48	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "that was quite an unpleasant experience last shift huh"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:22	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "no"	(123, 160, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:26	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "I think he wanted me dead"	(123, 160, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:30	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "and just didnt care that he hit you too"	(123, 160, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:36	SAY	TheRedYoshi1603/(Gunner Wilo) "Anyways"	(122, 160, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:41	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "it is what it is"	(120, 162, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:46	SAY	TheRedYoshi1603/(Gunner Wilo) "What did I want to do"	(124, 160, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:50	SAY	TheRedYoshi1603/(Gunner Wilo) "Right"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:48:56	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "excuse you"	(122, 153, 2)	Kitchen Cold Room
04:49:18	SAY	TheRedYoshi1603/(Gunner Wilo) "I think it's burger time"	(124, 158, 2)	Kitchen
04:49:37	SAY	TheRedYoshi1603/(Gunner Wilo) "Are we gonna make them pay again?"	(122, 158, 2)	Kitchen

Looks from previous round where Owen was cook:
201504

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03:23:42	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "today"	(125, 142, 3)	Kitchen
03:23:44	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "we make"	(125, 142, 3)	Kitchen
03:23:47	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "the big bucks"	(125, 142, 3)	Kitchen
03:23:52	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "nobody eats for free"	(125, 142, 3)	Kitchen
03:23:54	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "everyone pays"	(126, 142, 3)	Kitchen
03:24:14	SAY	Maxoess/(Owen McShain) "yes"	(123, 146, 3)	Kitchen

Post by **Timberpoes** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:35 pm #679651

Sorry for the delay. There's been a bit of discussion over this. With everything cleared up, this is being upheld.

Broadly speaking, we felt that you were aware of why the Captain did what the Captain did.

Your initial ahelp was less than ideal, and what I would personally describe as being economical with the truth and facts to misrepresent the situation in a certain way.
Misdoubful agreed, noting "... that there is nothing wrong with charging for food, but their use of that mechanic for something cringe" like escalation baiting.
Kieth added, "I think that's a fair re-assessment. Upon further thought, yeah. He did know because he does this gimmick very often. Like when he was afk in a fridge waiting"

As a result, we feel this evasiveness in making the ahelp transformed this from an IC issue into an OOC issue. We're generally happy to accept the idea that you're more likely than not doing this to escalation bait. There is no inherent issue with charging for food.

Since this seems to have been a trend, you were handled under Rule 7 by Coco.

Rule 7 can transform ordinarily rule-compliant behaviour into rule-breaking behaviour where there is some evidence of line-toeing or bad-faith playing that breaks the spirit of the rules in some way.

Kieth expressed some dissatisfaction in the wording of your ban's note, but couldn't quite pin down the exact part that caused him concern. However, I think it's most likely to be the part about "This is effectively a form of baiting as when folks are hungry and you aren't providing them with food at a price that a good number of people can reasonably afford".

We're all very much in agreement, again, that there is no inherent issue with charging for food and it broadly remains an IC issue. We'll change the latter part of the note to clarify this point:

As the chef ahelped a situation where the captain had entered their kitchen and picked up some food, leading to them throwing the cap out and a continuing conflict with the captain using some lethal lasers. Normally this would make sense for escalation, however after talking with other administrators Ive found this is not the first time you've hoarded food in the kitchen leading to people entering the kitchen to get said food. This is effectively a form of escalation baiting, made bad-faith by being somewhat evasive around the truth in ahelps until confronted. As this is part of a repeat pattern, this falls under Rule 7 for line-toeing conduct.

Timberpoes: ^
Kieth4: Looks fine rlly
Misdoubtful: That works

/tg/Station 13

[<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

[<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

Re: [<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

Re: [<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

Re: [<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

Re: [<Coconutwarrior97>] Maxoess - Megacorps hate capitalism

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