Space Law: Rewritten

[RaveRadbury]

There's been a lot of talk lately about how Space Law doesn't mesh well with existing rules (especially on the MRP ruleset). Quite a few members of the community have expressed interest in changing or re-writing it.

The headmin team is interested in hearing suggestions for revisions or total re-writes of space law.

If you have a pitch, here's where to put it. Limit it to one post. Please make good use of formatting including generous usage of spoilers for the sake of overall thread length.
Discussion of pitches are also allowed in this thread.

[Farquaar]

Space law does not need a rewrite.

[Armhulen]

The only bit in my mind is that it should not have anything in it that is against the rules. With that in mind rave, you should point out the ones you'd be banned or bwoinked for following as a sec officer? The ones that come to mind immediately are enemy of the corp and grand theft, because on MRP the punishment should fit the crime. One is no damage done and the other is theft so both of these don't warrant execution if I remember correctly

[Armhulen]

doubleposting with the world's most spicy take: you should be allowed to enforce no drug policy as a head of security, IF you want. heads of staff should have the power to impose interesting conditions on the round

!	Message from: RaveRadbury
	This counts as your pitch post

[Drag]

Space law concepts: Written by an idiot with criminal justice experiance.

The Manuel cord has woken me up specifically so I can write this post. God help us all.

For about a year I have been half-assed working on a space law document that itches all of my scratches. I have never taken this seriously and it has always been a "what if" project I've been working on when I can't sleep at 3 in the morning when I have to clock in at my job at 6 in the morning. The results of my needing an adult has been this so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Before I continue further I need to make some things clear.
Yes there is a lot of problems with this document. There is not only a lot missing but there are typos and things that may seem useless or out of place. I have not taken this document seriously other than to jot ideas down. I'm going to present all of my other ideas along with this document.

Section 1: Expansion of laws.

► Show Spoiler

Specifically on Manuel I see far too often security officers go "Well. I don't know what to charge you for doing this dumb thing but I'm just gonna slap you with a timer/fine." This doesn't sit well with the MRP server, the proposal not only rewrites all of the current space law but adds more laws that I see actually being used by both MRP and LRP. For example, the addition of Rubbernecking allows security to charge crew members trying to impede on lawful security action such as arresting a known traitor or slipping officers during a cult or any other emergency. Having a specific charge that you can give for the specific situation makes the people who like paperwork happy and eases potential confusion about what charge a security officer should give. Additionally, I have added drug possession and drug distribution as crimes, I feel as if this will be a fun concept if the note of crew only being charged for such if they possess harmful drugs is included. On top of adding laws, I have added tiers of the same law. For example, Capital contraband is punished differently than minor contraband instead of there being a singular charge that includes both. This makes my MRP brain feel better and allows LRP to still punish people with Capital contraband.

Section 2: The removal of Enemy of The Corporation.

► Show Spoiler

When I look at Enemy of the Corporation my LRP, MRP, and life experiences all unanimously hate it. It's a poorly written, bad faith, stupidly easy-to-use law that allows security to execute someone for existing. My solution has been to remove it and add laws that Enemy of the Corporation is commonly used for. Paperwork people rejoice. For example Nukies(If you manage to capture one. If so, based.) Wizards, and changelings could all be executed under Abject Terrorism if their behavior warrants execution. However, they actually have to commit abject terrorism first. This allows for wizards, stealth ops, and changelings that actually have gimmicks to have a better chance of trying to do said gimmick without being wordlessly blasted. Rejoice lawyer mains I have added wrongful conviction as a law so you can fight back against shitsec.

Section 3: Addition of Injunctions, The Judge, and The Bailiff.

► Show Spoiler

To boil a very complicated real-life concept down for the funny spaceman game, an injunction is a written cease and desist that is your final warning before security tries to get your ass. I see this being used for minor and medium and a select few major crimes, as anything beyond that are crimes that must be batoned. This not only allows for more good faith plays on security but also gives lawyers something else to do or prepare to do. In addition to injunctions, I would like to see an actual minor court system included, which would require the addition of a judge and possibly even a bailiff role. I once again see this offer more interaction between security and antags and would allow the court to see more consistent use. The judge would just be a layer that has the specific function of not only lawyer work but overseeing court proceedings. The bailiff could just be a security officer that protects the courtroom from interruptions but defaults to normal security behavior in the event of an emergency. The judge would also be able to be an antagonist and maybe even have a funny antag item. I also advocate for court cases because being given a chance is better than not having one at all.

Section 4: Stealing ideas from other servers: The fax machine.

► Show Spoiler

The fax machine is a machine that sends papers directly to central command. I see several uses for this. Firstly: This could give lawyers more of an actual sense of threat to security from their ability to contact central and possibly provoke an inspector or official. I see this allowing more in-character admin interaction that I think the admins, especially on MRP, would like to play with. I also see this being used as an emergency use machine for command to contact central if both gold spare IDs go missing, as the machine would only require law office access to work. The fax machine could also be emagged to send paperwork to the syndicate, the same thing I said before only it's to the spooky scary syndicate this time ooooooOOOooo. This would require some code work but since it does exist elsewhere I feel like it could be done fairly easily. It could work similarly to the coms console but give a dead chat alert that something has appeared at central command.

Section 5: Crime stacking.

► Show Spoiler

Tremble in fear, grey tide, while I have separated laws into tiers of crime repeated offenses can be more heavily punished if you decided to keep trying. For example, a tider repeatedly breaking into departments being arrested over and over could be charged the next tier of a crime if they repeat offend x amount of times. Again, more dynamic interactions and solves some gripes I have with the current law system. I see this system being abused, but again making lawyers more of a threat balances it out.

Everything I have presented are ideas that could be changed should the headmins decide they'd like to invest time into my ideas, nothing in this proposal is set in stone and could be expanded or removed, and Id love to hear more ideas.

[Domitius]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

[Domitius]

Double-post time.

Are we talking about making space law into policy for clarity?

[warbluke]

Add a clause somewhere in Space Law removing any and all legal protection from assistants, rendering them fair game with no consequences for every crew member.

[Domitius]

Triple post time Space Law should not be made into policy as we already have a hefty amount of rule bloat as is. Modernizing it to the modern ruleset sounds like fun but it shouldn't be done here.

[Armhulen]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

since it's optional and a suggestion it should not lead to you getting banned which following some parts of it (cough cough enemy of the corp) will get you banned on mrp

[Domitius]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

since it's optional and a suggestion it should not lead to you getting banned which following some parts of it (cough cough enemy of the corp) will get you banned on mrp

We have access to the wiki literally any of us can fix this.

[RaveRadbury]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

since it's optional and a suggestion it should not lead to you getting banned which following some parts of it (cough cough enemy of the corp) will get you banned on mrp

We have access to the wiki literally any of us can fix this.

Space law is locked for anyone without wiki admin privileges

[Domitius]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

since it's optional and a suggestion it should not lead to you getting banned which following some parts of it (cough cough enemy of the corp) will get you banned on mrp

We have access to the wiki literally any of us can fix this.

Space law is locked for anyone without wiki admin privileges

Okay ONE of us needs to approve this fix lol.

[Drag]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

I feel like space law should be treated as policy, as it dictates how security behaves towards antagonists. At least most on MRP actually use space law in their interactions

[RaveRadbury]

Since space law is entirely optional and not related to policy shouldn't this be sent to loremasters/ideas?

since it's optional and a suggestion it should not lead to you getting banned which following some parts of it (cough cough enemy of the corp) will get you banned on mrp

We have access to the wiki literally any of us can fix this.

Space law is locked for anyone without wiki admin privileges

Okay ONE of us needs to approve this fix lol.

This page is more or less restricted to headmins and who ever else Jordie allows. Therefore it seems to fall under headmin purview.

Whether or not this thread goes into ideas or wherever else on the forums is a bit arbitrary, what matters is

• Space law is conflicting with actual rulesets
• Headmins have the permissions to make alterations to space law

I'm more than willing to work with any Loremaster that has input or feedback for anything we evaluate.

[Sal McDungle]

I've played a few rounds as warden recently and found myself referring to the space law page to make sure I was doling out sentences fairly that befit the provable crimes committed. I think some more clarity would be nice, as there were definitely a few instances where I just had to wing it, but that did make for some fun in the roleplay.

I like everything Drag outlined above, especially the varying degrees of contraband, that came up a lot in just a few rounds. The idea of a judge and bailiff is neat and could add some fun roleplay ghost roles, but I realize that would require more work than just adjusting some outlines on a wiki page.

I do realize that space law is more just a guideline than an actual policy, but having it is nice and I don't see any harm to adding some more details to it, at least from the MRP side of things.

[Armhulen]

Space law helped me a lot as a new player believe it or not, And I think old players can as I said before make interesting round conditions

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Space law concepts: Written by an idiot with criminal justice experiance.

[Snipped for Brevity's sake]

I wholeheartedly support this approach tbh.

[Armhulen]

Space law concepts: Written by an idiot with criminal justice experiance.

[Snipped for Brevity's sake]

I wholeheartedly support this approach tbh.

it's pretty cool and i like it, it should probably mention max prison sentence as 10 minutes strictly so nobody gets bonked

[Mickyan]

The short time limits on sentences has always felt pretty awkward to me because if security is doing their job correctly (searching, gathering evidence, retrieving stolen property, putting away their belonging etc.etc.) it's very likely the amount of time required to process a prisoner is going to take far longer than the actual prison sentence.

This takes time for both parties involved but it's a lot harder to catch a criminal than it is to commit a crime and that guy who broke into the captain's quarters for the tenth time in a row today and only got caught once is certainly not going to be dissuaded to behave by a 5 minute jail time

I don't really have a suggested solution for this just something to consider

[Drag]

The short time limits on sentences has always felt pretty awkward to me because if security is doing their job correctly (searching, gathering evidence, retrieving stolen property, putting away their belonging etc.etc.) it's very likely the amount of time required to process a prisoner is going to take far longer than the actual prison sentence.

This takes time for both parties involved but it's a lot harder to catch a criminal than it is to commit a crime and that guy who broke into the captain's quarters for the tenth time in a row today and only got caught once is certainly not going to be dissuaded to behave by a 5 minute jail time

I don't really have a suggested solution for this just something to consider

This is what I hope to do with crime stacking, the more you do it the worse your punishment will be

[BeeSting12]

As someone who played security for a long time on LRP, it feels fairly pointless to enforce space law most of the time since there are far bigger fish to fry. Kinda dumb to brig an assistant for even a "major" crime such as trespass into EVA and theft of a suit when there's traitors tearing up the station. Its low RP application in my opinion is to give security players an idea of what they can brig people for and suggested sentence times so that they don't give out ridiculous brig times for say, vandalism.

I didn't really enforce space law word for word except on very boring rounds, I moreso see security as an opposing force for antags and an IC grief police to counter minor IC crime. Therefore, I only ever used space law to justify my brig sentences to admins when they came knocking. As long as the administration is okay with the sentences written in space law to be given out then any edits to it are fine.

This takes time for both parties involved but it's a lot harder to catch a criminal than it is to commit a crime and that guy who broke into the captain's quarters for the tenth time in a row today and only got caught once is certainly not going to be dissuaded to behave by a 5 minute jail time

That's because you're doing it wrong. List of crimes you can charge them with:
Major Trespass In Captains Office - 10 minutes. There's a note beside Major Trespass in Space Law allowing for this, also note that in tg station's policy, lethal force can be used on those breaking into the captain's office. Confiscation of tools/insulated gloves would of course go with this sentence.

Grand Theft - Capital Crime, permanent brigging, execution, or cyborgification is allowed. This only applies if they tried stealing something which they likely did.

Resisting Arrest - 1 Minute. Applies if they did anything other than *surrender or sitting perfectly still while you cuff them.

Assault of Officer - 5 minutes. This only applies if they attacked an officer or the captain. Give them a separate count of it for every assaulted individual.

Sparking a Manhunt - 1 minute per 2 minutes the manhunt went on. Applies only if the chase went on for more than 2 minutes.

If anyone else helps, give them the same sentence as the original offender, call it aiding and abetting.

As you can see, anyone found in the captain's office faces a minimum sentence of 10 minutes in the brig up to death depending on how you apply space law. Because they likely did more than just trespass, they're more likely looking at a 1000 point gulag sentence, permabrig, or death.

[kieth4]

If spacelaw becomes a real thing it will be used SO hard for justifying hunting valids and baiting escalation from said valids. "Oh you did x inconsequential thing let me throw you in brig for 5 minutes? Oh ? you fought back/ran? valid time...."

[sinfulbliss]

On LRP spacelaw is more like a suggestion of how you should act if you want to do everything by the book. Obviously the round's too chaotic to brig someone for vandalism so it's usually ignored, but it's extremely helpful for using as a general guideline to how long you should punish/severity, what you can execute for (very important), what you should perma/gulag for etc.

The most important part of spacelaw is the capital crime section, and it's where policy meets spacelaw the closest for sec. "Is it within the rules to execute for X offense," for example. If you get the "X" wrong you could catch a sec ban, so spacelaw is pretty important for guidance here.

Removing EoC is a terrible idea for LRP so long as antags can murderbone. I.e., this man has a 357+speedloader in his bag, but committed no crimes, well time to let someone get murdered have a good day sir. I don't see a huge problem with how spacelaw stands currently, and changing it to fit MRP servers better might run the risk of making it even more superficial on LRP, but just a thought.

P.S: Some people have enjoyed the idea of MRP + free antag, and I agree that could be fun, so maybe eliminating EoC in this context would be exciting and allow for cool gimmicks.

[Valorium]

Removing EoC is a terrible idea for LRP so long as antags can murderbone. I.e., this man has a 357+speedloader in his bag, but committed no crimes, well time to let someone get murdered have a good day sir. I don't see a huge problem with how spacelaw stands currently, and changing it to fit MRP servers better might run the risk of making it even more superficial on LRP, but just a thought.

To be fair, in the proposal posited by Drag (who advocated for the removal of EoC, so that's who I assume you're referring to), having a .357 and a speedloader is one count of Exceptional Contraband, one count of Minor Contraband and one count of Possession of a Weapon - which if combined is enough to Gulag or Perma someone for the remainder of the round. The thing with EoC is that it's just kind of a lazy way to prosecute the law? Even without use of EoC and using your example, you can easily book someone for a host of other crimes aside from "being a syndie lol". If we remove it, it'll encourage people to actually use Space Law when brigging people (instead of just knowing they can say the magic words, "they're an EoC lmao"), which simultaneously gives it more credence in the MRP ruleset and gives Lawyers something to actually do in a case - it's easier to argue against specific crimes like Possession of a Weapon than to argue against a blanket "they're an antagonist" law. That's just my two cents, though.

[sinfulbliss]

Removing EoC is a terrible idea for LRP so long as antags can murderbone. I.e., this man has a 357+speedloader in his bag, but committed no crimes, well time to let someone get murdered have a good day sir. I don't see a huge problem with how spacelaw stands currently, and changing it to fit MRP servers better might run the risk of making it even more superficial on LRP, but just a thought.

To be fair, in the proposal posited by Drag (who advocated for the removal of EoC, so that's who I assume you're referring to), having a .357 and a speedloader is one count of Exceptional Contraband, one count of Minor Contraband and one count of Possession of a Weapon - which if combined is enough to Gulag or Perma someone for the remainder of the round. The thing with EoC is that it's just kind of a lazy way to prosecute the law? Even without use of EoC and using your example, you can easily book someone for a host of other crimes aside from "being a syndie lol". If we remove it, it'll encourage people to actually use Space Law when brigging people (instead of just knowing they can say the magic words, "they're an EoC lmao"), which simultaneously gives it more credence in the MRP ruleset and gives Lawyers something to actually do in a case - it's easier to argue against specific crimes like Possession of a Weapon than to argue against a blanket "they're an antagonist" law. That's just my two cents, though.

Gulag and perma are fairly trivial to escape from, at best all this does is temporarily detain them while the warden gets murdered in perma trying to stop them from breaking out monitors them.

It's also a matter of time management. On a 70-90pop shift it's impractical to not just execute all EoC for being EoC automatically. Often times people are only tangentially connected to crimes. Was it the guy with the desword in his bag that beheaded those 3 sec officers in maint? Who knows, but thankfully you can execute him either way and hedge your bets it was him.

[bastardblaster]

Brig sentences are glorified time out zones in a video game. There's a reason most people don't bother with them, especially when "don't do this shitter behavior again or I'll cut your head off" does it's job arguably better, although this admittedly is from a LRP PoV

[Rohen_Tahir]

Removing EoC is a terrible idea for LRP so long as antags can murderbone. I.e., this man has a 357+speedloader in his bag, but committed no crimes, well time to let someone get murdered have a good day sir. I don't see a huge problem with how spacelaw stands currently, and changing it to fit MRP servers better might run the risk of making it even more superficial on LRP, but just a thought.

P.S: Some people have enjoyed the idea of MRP + free antag, and I agree that could be fun, so maybe eliminating EoC in this context would be exciting and allow for cool gimmicks.

Removing EoC does not alter rule 4, which states:

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

Removing EoC also does not remove IC justification for executing obvious tots/heretics, unless you are roleplaying as a lawful stupid character or similar - it is not necessarily unreasonable for a cop to "disappear" a confirmed contract killer/murderous cultist for the greater good/pro publico bono/because you joined security to kill people.

[Misdoubtful]

I'm deeply concerned in that this being in the policy forums and instead of the site/forums/wiki section is making people think this will have some kind of ruled backing or that it will alter the rules.

Its a suggestion, both on LRP and MRP. I wouldn't hold people to it in either space, ever, unless it was in the rules. It would probably have to be a lot different to actually end up in the rules regardless considering the way of things.



That doesn't mean space law doesn't kinda really suck, but don't be surprised if people just ignore it regardless to do their own thing. Its a guideline that can be used if someone chooses to, but no one has to. Not many people would be interested in playing sec around here if they had to stick to it to a T. A lot of non sec wouldn't have fun either playing against the robotic arm of the law. Its already kind of the wild west here, too many stipulations just makes it even more of a hurdle.

I also had a space law rewrite I started like a month ago centered around fun and general guidelines, but I only had time to get so far into it. Maybe I'll try to take some time to get it more fleshed out.

[RaveRadbury]

Yeah fine I'll move it

(Thread moved from Policy Discussion to Site, Forums, And Wiki)

[Itseasytosee2me]

Removing the enemy of the corp law makes no sense lore-wise, and is my major complaint with tg MRP. It makes no sense for nanotrasen to let confirmed traitors roam the station. I would play more MRP if the rules didn't make it a massive hugbox, and not the gritty and filled with consequence space game I love.

[Farquaar]

Removing the enemy of the corp law makes no sense lore-wise, and is my major complaint with tg MRP. It makes no sense for nanotrasen to let confirmed traitors roam the station. I would play more MRP if the rules didn't make it a massive hugbox, and not the gritty and filled with consequence space game I love.

Yeah, I really hate how somebody will openly work for the syndicate and the HoS will just give them parole because "they didn't kill anyone yet, don't be a meanie". Being a confirmed traitor should be a perma at a minimum. If you think perma is boring, then you oughta have gone out in a blaze of glory like a man.

I don't think Space Law needs a rewrite. But if it gets a rewrite, then EoC needs to remain a permaworthy offence if it's to be of any use in RP situations.

[Bawhoppennn]

From a policy perspective, I agree that Enemy of the Corporation remaining in is critical, no matter the path taken for Space Law. It should stay as a perma-able/executable crime, needing no other requirement to justify it beyond simply being said enemy of the corporation.

Friendly antags hurt rounds, and conversely so does slap-on-the-wrist security as well (except for when it is under interesting/unique circumstances). It is up to sportsmanship of players to be fair in their actions, and instead of just jumping to validsalading a player, usually permabrigging them first or similar is a good idea. This can help add more potential interesting developments later in the round (chance for escape, external breakout, prison riot, etc). Even then, different captainning styles add a lot of interest too, and it's important to allow for freedom in RP, so even straight-up executing can be fine to have as well.

We do not want Manuel to become chillRP- where everyone is cool with everyone: the game. Situations can still be harsh and serious in MRP, and I would argue MRP lends itself BETTER to having things being that way, as MRP means your character matters, thereby raising the stakes and narrative weight of the round. As rule 10 boldly puts, and as I live by to this day, losing is part of the game, and part of the fun; and I think we should all be okay with that fact. That occasional woe from dying or being caught should be embraced as adding to the story of a round and what's enjoyable about the game, not as missing out on something you'd have otherwise.

Personally I see no need for rewriting Space Law at all, but as for the spirit of this discussion, my thoughts are that trying to bubblewrap rounds even more on MRP, is I think the opposite of where we should be trying to things on take Manuel.

[Drag]

If enemy of the corporation remains then I believe some changes should be made that allow it to be harder to apply, including it in my proposal fixes none of the issues I have with it.

[Itseasytosee2me]

If enemy of the corporation remains then I believe some changes should be made that allow it to be harder to apply, including it in my proposal fixes none of the issues I have with it.

I believe the major difference between your and my viewpoints is that you believe that antagonists should be treated equally as the crew in the eye of the law, while I (and I suspect Farquaar and Bawhoppennn) believe antagonists should be persecuted on the basis of being an antagonist alone with few (but possible) exceptions. If an antag both gets arrested and made it obvious that they were an antag then they should be punished for it.


Aside from that, I'd like to address your complaints and then tell you why I think removing it in the way you did is a bad idea.

It's a poorly written, bad faith, stupidly easy-to-use law that allows security to execute someone for existing.

My solution has been to remove it and add laws that Enemy of the Corporation is commonly used for.

It's a poorly written,:
Space law states it as "To act as, or knowingly aid, an enemy of Nanotrasen." which in occ terms obviously translates to being an antagonist (or potentially assisting or pretending to be one)
From a lore perspective. I would say that this is concise and well written although you might argue it could be confusing, what is an enemy of the cooperation? Lucky there's a note that lists off common antagonists which should clarify to readers both this law's in-game purpose and purpose lore-wise. I would argue that it is very well written, although I would appreciate clarification on exactly what you mean.

It's bad faith,:
There is no deception in the law or application of it. It is very blunt and clear. I have no clue what you were referring to with this one other than the fact that you don't like it.

It's a stupidly easy-to-use law:
All laws are stupidly easy to use. I would argue that this law is harder to use than most as it requires you to prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone is an antagonist. Don't get caught with active energy pens in your bag next time.

It allows security to execute someone for existing:
It allows security to execute someone for being an antagonist. In-game and lore-wise it makes perfect sense that nanotrasen would want anything we classify as an antag dead or contained. From a roleplaying perspective, it makes no sense NOT to prosecute an antagonist because they are by their very nature a danger to the station and all that is cute and wholesome and kittens. As an antagonist, YOU ARE THE BAD GUY. Presumably, you have done terrible things in the past and are here on the station to do horrible things today. Your purpose is to cause conflict up to and including murdering people. It would be a failure both on part of the Nanotrasen security team and the players who play them to let you go. Even if you want to play a "friendly" antag gimmick why would they let you go knowing what you are capable of?

I think you are being misleading by saying that security can execute someone for "existing." Security could only ever pull this law on you if:
1. You admit to being an antagonist (Why would you ever do this in a position in which you think the security team has the capability of arresting you and you do not want to be caught)
2. You perform some sort of action that makes it obvious you are an antagonist, such as attacking someone with the intent to kill unprovoked which by your metic and revision of space law are more than enough to land an execution regardless.
3. You perform some kind of action or possess some kind of item that proved your antagonistic status.

Number 3 is the interesting one here. You believe that the possession of an agent id is much less of a crime than possession of an energy sword, even though they are both only obtainable through the traitor uplink, both come from the syndicate, and both are pretty definitive proof you are dealing with a traitor. I believe your mindset is those uplink items that have the potential to do more damage to the station and its crew should be punished more severely independent of the person's status as a traitor, but it is the traitor who has the capacity to damage the crew and station, not just the item.

I had this long-ass story written up in the style of a greentext from the POV of a syndicate agent who tries to steal the RD's armor by shooting a window with a gun and then getting arrested for 8 minutes to prove my point that it makes no roleplay sense to do that but it was too longwinded. Frankly, antagonists don't deserve second chances or empathy. If you get caught without a plan you should face the consequences. No antagonist should have the excuse of "I'm friendly." If you are playing antagonist as some perfect and nice and wholesome character who just wants to help everyone but happens to have traitor gear I can only ask why. An antagonist doesn't have to kill, but they should be antagonistic. Lie, cheat, threaten, murder those who might stand in your way, inconvenience, sabotage, blackmail, hold hostages, mug, and assault. People aren't SUPPOSED to like that you are doing that and as a player, you aren't mean for doing so it's your job.


What would better help me understand your point of view would be a couple of examples of rounds in which you think the enemy of the corp law was being abused. I'm still not completely sure of your core issue. And please refute the points I make here if you have any strong opinions or corrections.

[Mickyan]

EoC is kind of a necessity to the flow of the round, security has no reason to expect an antagonist will just give up after being released and it's not the kind of meta-information you can ignore, even subconsciously

However I think having clear guidelines that make a distinction between perma and execution as a punishment for antagonists would be a good compromise as it still gives antags a possible second chance given the right circumstances instead of being treated as automatically valid for summary execution

[Dopamiin]

IMO Space Law, even ignoring the contents, is in a shitty state because it exists in a hyper-position of mattering and not mattering. It's not policy, it's a "roleplay suggestion," but it has a dedicated, PROTECTED page on the wiki, and the books are in places akin to the various other wiki pages which usually are known for containing factual, correct information. It's protected and checked as if it's an absolute part of policy, and yet any time it comes up in a manner that's annoying or less than ideal it's hand waved and the big "roleplay suggestion" sign is tapped. IMO, one of three things should happen:

Space law is kept, and adopted as policy. This would likely require a partial rework, and I'm not sure I agree with this application, but it's an option.

Space law is kept, but its status as a roleplay suggestion is cemented. If this is the case, I fail to see why it deserves special, magical protections - it should be treated like any other wiki page. Its contents should have no more weight than the flavor text/suggestions on various other pages.

Space law is removed entirely. This would leave security in a somewhat odd spot, as well as the lawyer, but ultimately, if it has no IC bearing whatsoever and it doesn't actually matter, this would be the most clear way forward.

[Jonathan Gupta]

some servers treat spacelaw as god, and they use tg's page as refrence(Please change this shit it's out of control when HoS can't do drug deals)

[Cartographer-D]

Space Law is a guideline for a reason. It's a double-edged sword to have it set in stone as the end all and be all. It justifies a lot of bad behavior from sec whilst also heavily restricting their play and opening up every little thing to be nitpicked by whomever is being arrested. It would not be fun from an administrative perspective to enforce nor from a player perspective to follow.

Having it be there as a guidepost and cool lore section leaves case-by-case interpretation open whilst still allowing for interesting conflict and justification to arise from citing it.

In short: Space law is fine where it is policy-wise, but any attempt to improve it for the lore and for guidelines is a win in my book.

[FantasticFwoosh]

(Spicy Fwoosh)Pitch: Space law should be conventionalized to a usable standard for security and civil IC conflicts, as the discussion consensus seems narrow that beside a security SOC, it is also drives the direction of lawyer and other station legal concerns in total. Ergo: the moniker spacelaw should be abolished in favor of 'General Space Law' for concerning the matter of a open forum for petty claims, defrauding, defamement, and other partially criminal dismaneanours, even poor quality building & cargo regulations such as workplace injury (with protections on company architecture of course, only crewmember handiwork such as faulty ragecages)

A) Conventional OOC rules with IC consequence should be acknowledged & treated as treatsied agreements and lore-sanitized where antagonistic parties are not co-signatures but are still abided by the stations view of human laws. Examples may include a basic transcription of the Space Geneva Convention for instance.
Ai) Meaning that antagonists with a right to a lawyer can possibly have a effective defence to argue a case within the context of protection within Centcomm General Space Law, as long as they didn't utilize their acknowledged lack of IC treaty cooperation to step over barriers such as escalation.
Aii) Any ruling should be upheld in the presence of a decision in the place of sitting judge unless repealed, and the courtroom logs should beam directly to Adminbus IRC.

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Aii*) People who can sit as judge to the respective court include, the Captain, HOS, A third lawyer acting as a triumvirate, centcomm officials, administrator sent special ERT lawyers/judges or ERT/Deathsquad Commanders. And in exceptional circumstances seeking prior admin approval ideally, The links of Chain of Command, Ian, Syndicate Commanders, Alien Queens (by hive of juristdiction), Revolutionary Heads & Cultist Leaders (superceded by diety of choice).

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B) All admins should have a nessecary and up to date access to the current spacelaw within tabs, if a player wishes to dispute space law violations in contrivance to rules for quick and easy informed access.
Bi) Judges are allowed to issue a administrator reviewal as a punishement as a remote ahelp, which will ping every administrator to the courtroom.

C) Once a month without a immediate headmin recommendation, a thread is opened within this subforum to contribute theoretical or case based arguements to the addition or subsequent changing of general space law listings to prevent the spread of in-game law amendments, though they can certainly act upon ingame in legally grey territory.

[JustRandomGuy]

We can pretend space law is just a suggestion all we want but it has a gigantic influence on how security dishes out sentences. But it's not the biggest offender, the real problem is that brig cells punish the player not the character (as security will and maybe should ignore anyone in a cell), that's the job of admins. Gen pop rise up

[cedarbridge]

A generalized set of space law conditions is fine. I think it would be worthy to explore the concept of a more hands-on approach by having the Captain (or acting captain) authorize a set of daily "standing orders" instead. Absent a captain-decree, the crew would be given a default from centcomm. This could be codified in game by just giving the captain a console prompt that lets him either impose default spacelaw or set a series of standing orders by adding/removing statutes. This can be amended by captain's decree.

[ekaterina]

A generalized set of space law conditions is fine. I think it would be worthy to explore the concept of a more hands-on approach by having the Captain (or acting captain) authorize a set of daily "standing orders" instead. Absent a captain-decree, the crew would be given a default from centcomm. This could be codified in game by just giving the captain a console prompt that lets him either impose default spacelaw or set a series of standing orders by adding/removing statutes. This can be amended by captain's decree.

This is an interesting idea, as it could contribute to making each round unique rather than just a repetition.