Melee Weapon Rebalance

[sinfulbliss]

Non-traitor melee weapons are pretty unbalanced. Now that combat knives are removed, we are in a weird situation where surgery and engineering tools are the best non-traitor melee weapons in the game.

The strongest is by far the surgical drill. It fits in a bag, does 15 brute, has an extremely high chance of giving open puncture pierce wounds (bloodloss) and eye damage. Most of all, can be printed dirt cheap en masse from the medbay protolathe. Anyone who walks into medbay storage can acquire one.

At second place you have the circular saw (also a surgical tool and printable en masse), which lacks the stronger wounding capabilities but can decapitate (15 brute/hit).

At third place you have a welder, which causes the very problematic burn wounds, ignores armor, is extremely easy to acquire, and fits in a toolbelt (15 burn/hit).

And then below all of these you have the survival knife, the only melee weapon that's actually meant to be a melee weapon, but does only 15 brute with a low wound chance. Even worse is that it needs to be specially ordered from cargo to acquire. It shouldn't be the case that security's best option for getting a melee weapon is to go to medbay and get a surgical drill.

Another problem is the captain's sabre. Although it has a high block chance and great armor piercing, it does a measly 15 brute/hit. For a sword that requires the entire belt slot, which the cap could use instead for his telebaton, it should do at least 18-20 brute. Especially since it's the only weapon of its kind, and unique to the captain. The fact you can kill someone faster with a wielded spear (18 brute/hit) is really bad. I've seen many captains lately simply giving the sabre away, along with the excess items in their garment bag, because it's not worth the belt slot to them.

Finally, the bone axe, which can be easily crafted after 2 minutes in lavaland, and does 23 brute/hit. The same damage as the metal H2 axe that would take an extremely skilled atmos tekkie over 20 minutes to create.

Thoughts?

[Shadowflame909]

We need to buff weapons that are dual-wield, hard to craft, and take up slots/cant fit in bag. Like the chainsaw, spear, Chairs.

Nerf stuff that is easily storable and easy to get. Like surgical drills, Hatchets/Kitchen Knives, Screwdrivers.

It should be a sliding scale of the more obvious, the more dangerous.

[Pandarsenic]

Mostly agreed, though remember you can instantly craft a chair if you carry metal with you.

[bastardblaster]

i'd like more alternative attacks for weapons, like that one PR which gave the captain's saber a dash attack, or Axes letting you charge up for a sec for a power attack in a circle around you

[Super Aggro Crag]

Man i just want to kill people dont nerf my weapons

[oranges]

really big job.

[Rohen_Tahir]

for you

[Longestarmlonglaw]

re add combat knives

[nianjiilical]

instead of asking what weapons need to be nerfed, i think the better questions to ask should be

a) what should be the "standards" by which weapons are judged? i think the fire axe is in a good position as the high end but rare weapon, and the op seems to posit 15 brute being "intentional weapon" tier, so should weapons be balanced around the notion of "15 is gold standard, 10~ is silver, 5-8 is bronze"?

b) how much are other attributes "worth" compared to raw damage? the surgical drill is currently the meta weapon because it has 15 damage plus high wounds, but i would argue that the drill itself isn't inherently imbalanced so much as it's just better than the alternatives. how much should it be nerfed to keep it "as powerful" as a 15 damage no wound bonus weapon? would 12 damage + wound bonus be "equal" to 15 damage + no wound bonus? 10 damage? and how does this stack up to other potential benefits weapons have? is 15 burn damage as powerful as 15 brute? does 10 burn = 15 brute?

for what its worth i think that the current weapon meta isnt horrifically imbalanced, in the sense that the drill isn't op, its just better than the alternatives, but to bring it in line with the alternatives means figuring out what "the line" should be

[Ayy Lemoh]

Quit making the game a fucking esport.

[Pandarsenic]

What are toolboxes, extinguishers, and thrown floor tiles at right now?

[NecromancerAnne]

What are toolboxes, extinguishers, and thrown floor tiles at right now?

In order: 12 force and throw force, 10 force and throw force, and 10 throw force.

[Pandarsenic]

Honestly, those values aren't awful for things you can carry in a pack for toolbox/floor tiles.

I almost feel like the toolbox, maaaybe, might be worth touching up a little since you can't put it in a backpack. As a container, it's inferior to a toolbelt or just a normal box, and as a weapon it's vastly inferior to a fire extinguisher, its own contents (the welder), or to other departmental tools (drill, saw, etc.) despite only being suitable to hold in hand.

Also I'm a boomer, toolbox memes from the old days when knockdown was death, etc.

[NecromancerAnne]

We do have a new way in which to balance weapons in the form of wounds. Raw damage isn't necessary if you can use a weapon to cause a wound and hobble an opponent. Not every fight is necessarily to the death (even if people will push for it), and sometimes you're simply wounding someone to humble them.

On the flipside, I think a lot of these weapons are mostly opportunistic and environmental and less something you necessarily equip with you long term. I think focusing more on the environmental aspect of weapons might make for some more interesting dynamics, which I think is a niche melee tends to fill separate from gunfights.

Stuff like chairs, pot plants, bottles and the like being things you employ opportunistically to catch someone by surprise, but ultimately become useless as a weapon afterwards by just breaking. Adding to that, making these a little clunky to use as prepared weapons would go a long way. I think bottles are already pretty good for what they do at the moment as a good example of an environmental weapon.

[Dopamiin]

i didnt know about the drill but that does seem too strong, a lot of other shit feels like its in an okay spot right now.

welding tools and saws are fine imo, they're strong but not beyond what i feel they should be for a usually known about weapon (anyone with a toolset or doctors)

i thought survival knifes did 20 brute? imo 18 would be a safe spot as an easily-concealable crew-oriented, but somewhat hard to get item that's deliberately a weapon (as opposed to some of the others)

sword is fine, blockchance is insanely good and captain shouldnt be getting into fights, their telebaton is better as an emergency tool, though i wouldnt complain about a damage buff

bone axes arent a problem, you cant get them without either going out of your way or asking a miner to and they're a wielded, crafted weapon that you have to hold. stunprods are better and easier to get imo, and spears serve the niche of strong but very easy to make wielded weapon. anything that's a backslot only should be allowed to be good because all of them are unhideable and require advanced prep (you really dont want to be sitting there crafting a weapon while someone's trying to beat you to death)

really the drill is literally the only thing that worries me here (as a source of eye damage which can be very scary on top of already having good base stats)

[Helios]

We do have a new way in which to balance weapons in the form of wounds. Raw damage isn't necessary if you can use a weapon to cause a wound and hobble an opponent. Not every fight is necessarily to the death (even if people will push for it), and sometimes you're simply wounding someone to humble them.

On the flipside, I think a lot of these weapons are mostly opportunistic and environmental and less something you necessarily equip with you long term. I think focusing more on the environmental aspect of weapons might make for some more interesting dynamics, which I think is a niche melee tends to fill separate from gunfights.

Stuff like chairs, pot plants, bottles and the like being things you employ opportunistically to catch someone by surprise, but ultimately become useless as a weapon afterwards by just breaking. Adding to that, making these a little clunky to use as prepared weapons would go a long way. I think bottles are already pretty good for what they do at the moment as a good example of an environmental weapon.

I disagree. Wounds don't make the game more fun.
We would be better off going to a way older meta of 2007, where toolboxes had a lot more knockdown. Where someone could kill you by repeatedly knocking you down with their toolbox, removing your headset and welding you into a locker, or just using the welder to finish the job with damage.
Toolboxes were innoucous, and also a potential deadly weapon. As a detective if I saw a blood stain on the floor and a missing locker, I knew something was afoot. Sure, there's changes, a lot more noise someone can make if they're stuck in a welded locker, but it was a better time.

[oranges]

shut the fuck up boomer

[Armhulen]

We need to buff weapons that are dual-wield, hard to craft, and take up slots/cant fit in bag. Like the chainsaw, spear, Chairs.

Nerf stuff that is easily storable and easy to get. Like surgical drills, Hatchets/Kitchen Knives, Screwdrivers.

It should be a sliding scale of the more obvious, the more dangerous.

i like this idea

[Pandarsenic]

Same, but also keep in mind that certain powergamers (what no not me shhh) know dirty tricks like keeping half-assembled spears in their bags with shards to just make spears on the spot

You can do similar with chairs.

The final step of crafting those could stand to be a little slower, probably, if they're buffed as weapons (which they should be)

[NecromancerAnne]

Craft menu makes anything non-combat viable.

(Or just add do_afters craft menu I know isn't particularly liked for how it works)

[Kendrickorium]

I find that without my saber or a gun, the ol toolbox always does the trick

the surgical saw has ALWAYS been a go-to for me

why not just leave everything alone because it all feels fine to me

[Farquaar]

Balance is not really the issue. I'd much rather combat be made interesting, rather than balanced.

In my opinion, combat should be fast and deadly. Ambushes should be the typically resolve in favour of the attacker. If an improvised weapon could easily kill a man in real life, it should be able to easily kill a man in SS13. The main advantage of swords, axes, or spears should be that they make you better able to defend against melee attacks (more range, parrying, wider "arc of attack"), rather than magically deal more damage.

If I had my way, you would be allowed to kill Mr. Body in the dining room with the candlestick so long as his back was turned. And if he was facing you and holding a sword, you wouldn't have many defensive options other than fleeing or somehow disarming him.