Merging Shenanigans

[legoscape]

Good day people of TG station. It is I, Legoscape. Big meme and stuff. I started playing this game in early 2012 and made my official account legoscape in 2013. I have been around this game for going on eight years now and I am highly disappointed. When covid struck I kinda fell off playing ss13 for a while because I had obligations to become a doctor but that fell through after realizing it was too expensive. However, I never stopped observing ss13 from afar In the time I've been away I keep seeing the same shenanigans from the /tg/ coder team.

This is a huge disappointment and only one of many examples I see from this coder/development team. There seems to be a disconnect between the coders and the player base. ((Players who don't play and players who do)) I mean seriously what has happened over the past year that makes anyone think that not listening to the player base is a good idea? Remove code because you don't want to optimize it? Too many runtimes so throw it out the window? Delete functional and solid mechanical objects such as cloning without seeing the oversights of missing it?

The holes in the gameplay and the lack of oversight in content bringing antagonists are just fucking atrocious. There needs to be a new system that fixes the development structure instead of just "I'm head coder I do what I want". Your actions are destroying your player base, I mean fuck. The TG Station numbers have plummeted over the past two years where tg use to be on the top of the board and even had full servers constantly. Something has to be done

[Farquaar]

While I miss the singularity, cloning removal ended up being a good move.

[CPTANT]

The removal of both the singularity engine and cloning are deliberate choices and the game is better for it, you are not contributing any arguments why it would be otherwise.

[TheFinalPotato]

Isn't comparing our numbers from this year with ssethtide somewhat incorrect?
The game's got about a year cycle for burnout, and even if people keep playing they're likely to move to another, fresher codebase. We have the most churn of any codebase, but we can't make content quickly enough to keep everyone fresh.

Remove code because you don't want to optimize it? Too many runtimes so throw it out the window? Delete functional and solid mechanical objects such as cloning without seeing the oversights of missing it?

This is somewhat hard to parse, I think you're talking about the tesla removal here, outside of mentioning cloning which is just kinda comical. We did actually re-add the tesla, it's not back in its full form because of the lag associated around explosions, but that might be partially resolved by now, still need to test that.

The holes in the gameplay and the lack of oversight in content bringing antagonists are just fucking atrocious.

What do you mean by this?

There needs to be a new system that fixes the development structure instead of just "I'm head coder I do what I want".

While it is theoretically possible for mso to change the codebase the live servers use to his own and "assume control", it's a risky play since most coders like having a layer of separation between the playerbase and their work. Speaking personally I wouldn't be here anymore if things were decided by vote or popularity with the players (or by extension admins)

[oranges]

nothing will be done, just read this thread to see why https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2660

[EOBGames]

Attempting to do coding by democracy would be a great way to ensure that controversial but ultimately important changes (like cloning removal, which almost singlehandedly made medical worth playing) will never be made. It's a one way ticket to codebase stagnation. I can assure you that large changes are also not just made on a whim- just because you didn't see the discussion happen (on a public channel, I might add), doesn't mean it didn't happen. To use cloning removal as an example again, that became a point of discussion as medical gameplay had devolved into opening the door to cloning, throwing bodies in a tube, and then that was it. The discussion of the issue went on for months, and the eventual conclusion amongst maintainers was that a removal was the best way forward for medical. Surprise, surprise, when the change actually came, despite the initial backlash, medical became a far more enjoyable job as it went from MDs being doormen for the cloning machine to actually being able to do something job-relevant with their time during a shift. Had we listened to the backlash, we'd have never seen the eventual improvement it brought.

tl;dr: very few codebase decisions are made arbitrarily on a whim, and code by democracy is a fantastic way to get only the most bland, milquetoast PRs lest you piss off the masses.

[Yenwodyah]

You're completely correct, but nothing can be done about it. Maintainers believe that they cannot be wrong about game design and the playerbase has no way of effecting change to maintainer policy or the maintainer team, except perhaps by electing a headmin willing to support the nuclear option of switching the server to a fork with a different maintainer team. Even then they'd have to get it past the other two headmins and the host, so there's very little chance of any positive change.

My advice is to resign yourself to the fact that some parts of the game will be ruined and enjoy the parts that aren't.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I have been firmly and vigorously opposed to just about every controversialmajor gameplay change in the last 7 years (movespeed, goofchem, newmed, cloning removal, supermatter) and have come to accept that I was ultimately wrong about most of them.

[CPTANT]

I have been firmly and vigorously opposed to just about every controversialmajor gameplay change in the last 7 years (movespeed, goofchem, newmed, cloning removal, supermatter) and have come to accept that I was ultimately wrong about most of them.

Goofchem was an actual mess for ages though. Nonsensical progression of recipe difficulty (A lot of the strongest recipes also the easiest) and you didn't need anything else but silver and styptic to heal every wound. The new med system is a vast improvement though. I agree with the rest, I also think the shift away from hard stuns is worth mentioning.


>You're completely correct, but nothing can be done about it. Maintainers believe that they cannot be wrong about game design and the playerbase has no way of effecting change to maintainer policy or the maintainer team, except perhaps by electing a headmin willing to support the nuclear option of switching the server to a fork with a different maintainer team. Even then they'd have to get it past the other two headmins and the host, so there's very little chance of any positive change.

>My advice is to resign yourself to the fact that some parts of the game will be ruined and enjoy the parts that aren't.

You can't be argued with because you don't bring any argument in the first place. You are not giving a single example of a bad change and explanation of why that change is bad.

[legoscape]

Isn't comparing our numbers from this year with ssethtide somewhat incorrect?
The game's got about a year cycle for burnout, and even if people keep playing they're likely to move to another, fresher codebase. We have the most churn of any codebase, but we can't make content quickly enough to keep everyone fresh

This is the problem, The player base is not moving to newer fresher codebases...They're moving to codebases like bee station where there is more old content. Bee station exists to spite the /tg/codebase because not only does it not have the shenanigans of merging 4 upvotes to 230 downvote ideas but it has actual content that is fun and isn't 50 round straight of "RaNdOmIzEd AnTaG". TG took the cake when lava land was created and it made a whole ton of content instead of deleting content such as the singularity. Where let's be honest, TG has lost the random craziness that defines space station 13. I haven't made any interesting stories of clowns bombing the station then slipping on a banana to fall into a singularity or some normal stuff you would hear from space station 13. The codebase if anything is making the jobs less fun and more drawn out. Medical for instance. I fucking absolutely hate playing as any medical job now because it's just a fucking slog to do. You have to sit on a body for ten minutes just to have a chance of reviving them. No one wants to do this. Coders are deleting content and making this server less fun and less appealing, I mean fuck the joke "Orange man bad" Is not a joke. The whole idea of "you can change stuff if you learn how to code" is a bad idea in itself. Yes, some random jackhole can code but he doesn't understand how his changes could affect gameplay, He always has oversight and he makes changes on brand new systems that could have had a rework no longer than a year or two. When you look at the numbers throughout the year you could really tell /tg/ has fallen from grace. I mean fuck, The whole idea for 8 additional servers is to bring more player bases in from other parts of the world but that was never needed. The two main severs, Bagil and Sybil are bare bones from what they use to be. They use to be absolutely jacked with players I'm talking maxed out crazy shenanigans of 50-60 even 70 players consecutively. You wan't to bring these numbers back? Bring the old content back medical, botany; And all the other shenanigans that made the game fun. This game was NEVER about balance it's always been about fun.

TLDR: You want to bring old players like me back, The ones that stick around for years? Unfuck everything that's been fucked in the past year and a half and give those fucking big brain coder chads a god damn goal.

Rant Electric Bogaloo Volume 2

I have been firmly and vigorously opposed to just about every controversialmajor gameplay change in the last 7 years (movespeed, goofchem, newmed, cloning removal, supermatter) and have come to accept that I was ultimately wrong about most of them.

You were told you were ultimately wrong by every single person who backed up oranges just like me, Yet I never broke my Ideas of what the game should be and I still haven't. If you were ultimately wrong about most of them why was there so much fucking backlash? Why are the servers so empty now? I could understand the changes from an admin perspective, It makes life easier to admin a bunch of retards running around griefing and killing with weird shit that you think needs to be removed. But you ultimately are backing the short horse that doesn't have much space for oversight of how the players feel about playing the game. Once the nerfs and changes to medical and botany started rolling out the player base did start to drop off and that fact is obtuse. I am somewhat of a fucking retard myself I mean really I'm fucking legoscape. I have observed the player counts for months and years by this point and I've seen a roller coaster to the ground floor ever since. If you want to be mind washed into believing what you believed was wrong you need to take another look my man and do something to correct the failing player base.

[Farquaar]

Medical for instance. I fucking absolutely hate playing as any medical job now because it's just a fucking slog to do. You have to sit on a body for ten minutes just to have a chance of reviving them. No one wants to do this.

Medical is objectively more engaging now. Triage used to consist of deciding who gets tossed in the cloner first. Now there’s actual decision-making involved in terms of the patients you treat and the healing techniques you use.

[legoscape]

Medical for instance. I fucking absolutely hate playing as any medical job now because it's just a fucking slog to do. You have to sit on a body for ten minutes just to have a chance of reviving them. No one wants to do this.

Medical is objectively more engaging now. Triage used to consist of deciding who gets tossed in the cloner first. Now there’s actual decision-making involved in terms of the patients you treat and the healing techniques you use.

Medical is too engaging and it takes too long to revive anyone now. A professional medical doctor takes 2 minutes to revive someone with surgery, This implies the body is not too damaged. Hell This all implies medical doing their job 100% correct which is a big assumption at that. On the other hand, it takes one antag ten minutes with a duel e-sword to kill the of majority the staff. If you kill all of the medical staff or just a few of the medical staff the same thing happens. Medical can not revive everyone with the new system. A return to cloning doesn't change medical it just eases up on what the medical staff can do in their short time.

[CPTANT]

Why are you claiming the servers are empty? I see 150 people online right now.

[Agux909]

Good day people of TG station. It is I, Legoscape. Big meme and stuff. I started playing this game in early 2012 and made my official account legoscape in 2013. I have been around this game for going on eight years now and I am highly disappointed. When covid struck I kinda fell off playing ss13 for a while because I had obligations to become a doctor but that fell through after realizing it was too expensive. However, I never stopped observing ss13 from afar In the time I've been away I keep seeing the same shenanigans from the /tg/ coder team.

wewdad2123.JPG

This is a huge disappointment and only one of many examples I see from this coder/development team. There seems to be a disconnect between the coders and the player base. ((Players who don't play and players who do)) I mean seriously what has happened over the past year that makes anyone think that not listening to the player base is a good idea? Remove code because you don't want to optimize it? Too many runtimes so throw it out the window? Delete functional and solid mechanical objects such as cloning without seeing the oversights of missing it?

The holes in the gameplay and the lack of oversight in content bringing antagonists are just fucking atrocious. There needs to be a new system that fixes the development structure instead of just "I'm head coder I do what I want". Your actions are destroying your player base, I mean fuck. The TG Station numbers have plummeted over the past two years where tg use to be on the top of the board and even had full servers constantly. Something has to be done

Hard to take you seriously when you say you are such an old tg member and completely ignore how cloning removal has actually positively impacted medbay. You really following the servers as closely as you say you do?

Medbay before the removal literally didn't even need doctors to be there to function. Assistants most rounds would just break all windows or hack & bolt all airlocks open to the magical room, then bully, shove and sometimes disposal doctors that wanted to spend more than a minute reviving or healing someone too fucked up. These docs just wanted to do play their jobs.

Instead it was easier to throw the body or even kill someone so they'd be quickly cloned with the most minimal drawbacks and manual operations, not even mentioning when the machine was updated to be autocloning. I also was against it at first, but this is only natural, because death being inconsequential really spoils you, you know?

Medical is now more impressive to even behold, because, although it can get to be an overwhelmed mess, you see people cooperating and trying to play their jobs, which is why they select to play as docs in the first place. When there's not enough docs, people will usually assist them instead of bullying them because they put someone in an operating table, generating an overall more positive and friendly environment. Woah such a horrible change.

Tesla and Singulo were unmantained meme engines tots or shitters would build or sabotage to destroy the station and/or kill the server. Noone stepped forward to do anything about them so the plug was pulled. It sucks but it is what it is.

Your post amuses me. If this is the mentality of "experienced tg vets" then I am the one dissappointed.
Lmao.

[Farquaar]

Medical is too engaging and it takes too long to revive anyone now.
...
On the other hand, it takes one antag ten minutes with a duel e-sword to kill the of majority the staff.

Have you considered the possibility that the majority of the station dying should *not* be a situation with an easy fix?

[Ghilker]

Medical for instance. I fucking absolutely hate playing as any medical job now because it's just a fucking slog to do. You have to sit on a body for ten minutes just to have a chance of reviving them. No one wants to do this.

Medical is objectively more engaging now. Triage used to consist of deciding who gets tossed in the cloner first. Now there’s actual decision-making involved in terms of the patients you treat and the healing techniques you use.

Medical is too engaging and it takes too long to revive anyone now. A professional medical doctor takes 2 minutes to revive someone with surgery, This implies the body is not too damaged. Hell This all implies medical doing their job 100% correct which is a big assumption at that. On the other hand, it takes one antag ten minutes with a duel e-sword to kill the of majority the staff. If you kill all of the medical staff or just a few of the medical staff the same thing happens. Medical can not revive everyone with the new system. A return to cloning doesn't change medical it just eases up on what the medical staff can do in their short time.

Cool time to nerf some antags

[TheFinalPotato]

To address your points:

The player base is not moving to newer fresher codebases...They're moving to codebases like bee station

Are they? bee has a collective pop of 60 right now over 2 servers

He always has oversight and he makes changes on brand new systems that could have had a rework no longer than a year or two.

I have no idea what you mean by this

They use to be absolutely jacked with players I'm talking maxed out crazy shenanigans of 50-60 even 70 players consecutively

Sybil, bagil, and manual have a collective 130 pop right now. If the population was concentrated over 2 servers, that'd be 65 each, which sounds about like what you're dreaming about here. This isn't counting downstreams who are stuck with our changes too or Terry, because you didn't mention it in your 2 servers example

TLDR: You want to bring old players like me back, The ones that stick around for years? Unfuck everything that's been fucked in the past year and a half and give those fucking big brain coder chads a god damn goal.

I don't want you to leave, but wooing you over isn't a priority of mine. People come and people go, and the game changes. I just want to make sure the game changes in a good way, which is subjective, so I'm just gonna work off my own opinion and thoughts. You may not like the changes to botany or medical, but I do, and you haven't made any like, actual points against them.

All that said, do you have a proposal for how to eliminate this tendency of the codebases to ignore popular will? or is this more an attempt to convince us we were wrong to go down this road

[cacogen]

While I miss the singularity, cloning removal ended up being a good move.

When medbay is either empty or filled with people who don't know how to do their jobs and medical has to refuse to treat repeated avoidable cases like even just alcohol poisoning because of the tedium involved and is overwhelmed by a single emergency you know you've made things worse for everyone for the sake of one job having more to do. Having to wait on medical is not enjoyable and having people in crit or dead for extended lengths of time is not good for the health of the round or the game in general.

[MisterPerson]

Medical is too engaging...

Imagine saying this with a straight face and thinking it's a good argument. I literally don't think it's possible to make any mechanic "too engaging" in a vacuum. You can argue it draws player attention away from something else more important, but nothing is more important to a medical doctor than being a medical doctor.

[saprasam]

the cloning removal was ok but every other pr or change has been either pointless or actively detrimental

Cool time to nerf some antags

you got the nuts big guy?

[oranges]

you guys are spending way too much time on legoscape, not only is he a massive troll, he's not the kind of person we want to attract to our server anyway, so having less players like him is a goal, not a problem

[TheFinalPotato]

I have no idea who legoscape is, so I'll have to take your word for it

[MisterPerson]

you guys are spending way too much time on legoscape, not only is he a massive troll, he's not the kind of person we want to attract to our server anyway, so having less players like him is a goal, not a problem

I got that impression from their posts but couldn't place my finger on why.

[FloranOtten]

There's less players now

I don't get this attitude. It only makes sense if you view tg as being A server on the hub. Yes, Paradise has more players on one server. Because they only have one server. We have up to 200 pop spread out over 5 servers. We're at a higher player count then ever (besides the ssethtide but come on).

[legoscape]

you guys are spending way too much time on legoscape, not only is he a massive troll, he's not the kind of person we want to attract to our server anyway, so having less players like him is a goal, not a problem

Yes I'm Legoscape
I've been playing this game for 8-9 years. I started playing ss13 when I was 13 and was a fucking assclown, I grew up and stopped fucking with servers. Secondly, I have an associates and going to be working on a bachelor's in-game design starting the fall. I'm very passionate about space station 13 this game community is like no other.

This is the issue
Anyway, I asked around developers of other servers like NSV and Yog and Csm. All of them said the same shit I have said. The development is just a mess, One of the people I talked to even brought up the point of developer-to-developer communication but a total lack of communication from the developers to the players which I wholeheartedly agree with. The coders/developers have made excuses of a lack of communication from the players, Whomst don't know how to even fucking touch github. Ya know...The place that has all the development and merges and discussions. This is a shitty excuse to allow 100% freedom to do whatever they want without having to listen to a single person ((This is weird because the players who do use GitHub have downvoted every bad idea from 100 to 300+ downvotes)).

My highly elaborate and college-educated plan.
As soon as possible The developers make a survey system integrated into the "OOC" tab or in the "Changelog" section. This survey system will have a few functions
Questionnaires from the Development team asking the playerbase what they would like see, This could be custom responses or with bullet points from 1-?
Development progress on projects that are highlightable from the github in a progress form. Example : Developing, Testing, Bug-stomping, Merging
A bug report system that does not require a GitHub account; All players could easily use.

Stop the merging shenanigans and listen to what the players are saying. Yes, it's awesome that you guys are so invested in seeing your code come to life in the game but don't sacrifice the playerbase for it.


RESPONDING TO PEOPLE

There's less players now

I don't get this attitude. It only makes sense if you view tg as being A server on the hub. Yes, Paradise has more players on one server. Because they only have one server. We have up to 200 pop spread out over 5 servers. We're at a higher player count then ever (besides the ssethtide but come on).

I've always been under the impression when the player base fell off from one region. Other servers would boost the player base from the European region. Sybil and Basil were the two grand daddies of /tg/ and had all the players and now they are husks of their former selves.

Medical is too engaging...

Imagine saying this with a straight face and thinking it's a good argument. I literally don't think it's possible to make any mechanic "too engaging" in a vacuum. You can argue it draws player attention away from something else more important, but nothing is more important to a medical doctor than being a medical doctor.

I meant medical was too engaging because the time of engagement it takes to heal anyone or even revive them. The medical team are ran by players who may not want to sit in medbay 24/7. It could be argued this destroyes rp ((I'm sorry this in particular a stupid point))

Good day people of TG station. It is I, Legoscape. Big meme and stuff. I started playing this game in early 2012 and made my official account legoscape in 2013. I have been around this game for going on eight years now and I am highly disappointed. When covid struck I kinda fell off playing ss13 for a while because I had obligations to become a doctor but that fell through after realizing it was too expensive. However, I never stopped observing ss13 from afar In the time I've been away I keep seeing the same shenanigans from the /tg/ coder team.

wewdad2123.JPG

This is a huge disappointment and only one of many examples I see from this coder/development team. There seems to be a disconnect between the coders and the player base. ((Players who don't play and players who do)) I mean seriously what has happened over the past year that makes anyone think that not listening to the player base is a good idea? Remove code because you don't want to optimize it? Too many runtimes so throw it out the window? Delete functional and solid mechanical objects such as cloning without seeing the oversights of missing it?

The holes in the gameplay and the lack of oversight in content bringing antagonists are just fucking atrocious. There needs to be a new system that fixes the development structure instead of just "I'm head coder I do what I want". Your actions are destroying your player base, I mean fuck. The TG Station numbers have plummeted over the past two years where tg use to be on the top of the board and even had full servers constantly. Something has to be done

Hard to take you seriously when you say you are such an old tg member and completely ignore how cloning removal has actually positively impacted medbay. You really following the servers as closely as you say you do?

Medbay before the removal literally didn't even need doctors to be there to function. Assistants most rounds would just break all windows or hack & bolt all airlocks open to the magical room, then bully, shove and sometimes disposal doctors that wanted to spend more than a minute reviving or healing someone too fucked up. These docs just wanted to do play their jobs.

Instead it was easier to throw the body or even kill someone so they'd be quickly cloned with the most minimal drawbacks and manual operations, not even mentioning when the machine was updated to be autocloning. I also was against it at first, but this is only natural, because death being inconsequential really spoils you, you know?

Medical is now more impressive to even behold, because, although it can get to be an overwhelmed mess, you see people cooperating and trying to play their jobs, which is why they select to play as docs in the first place. When there's not enough docs, people will usually assist them instead of bullying them because they put someone in an operating table, generating an overall more positive and friendly environment. Woah such a horrible change.

Tesla and Singulo were unmantained meme engines tots or shitters would build or sabotage to destroy the station and/or kill the server. Noone stepped forward to do anything about them so the plug was pulled. It sucks but it is what it is.

Your post amuses me. If this is the mentality of "experienced tg vets" then I am the one dissappointed.
Lmao.

I always follow and still follow the idea of playerbase feedback. Feedback... Feedback... Feedback it's the most important role in the development of any code. These removals were highly disliked and did tank the player count for a long time. Yes, changes could be good for the game but game development ends where a majority of the playerbase dislikes that idea.

To address your points:

The player base is not moving to newer fresher codebases...They're moving to codebases like bee station

Are they? bee has a collective pop of 60 right now over 2 servers

He always has oversight and he makes changes on brand new systems that could have had a rework no longer than a year or two.

I have no idea what you mean by this

They use to be absolutely jacked with players I'm talking maxed out crazy shenanigans of 50-60 even 70 players consecutively

Sybil, bagil, and manual have a collective 130 pop right now. If the population was concentrated over 2 servers, that'd be 65 each, which sounds about like what you're dreaming about here. This isn't counting downstreams who are stuck with our changes too or Terry, because you didn't mention it in your 2 servers example

TLDR: You want to bring old players like me back, The ones that stick around for years? Unfuck everything that's been fucked in the past year and a half and give those fucking big brain coder chads a god damn goal.

I don't want you to leave, but wooing you over isn't a priority of mine. People come and people go, and the game changes. I just want to make sure the game changes in a good way, which is subjective, so I'm just gonna work off my own opinion and thoughts. You may not like the changes to botany or medical, but I do, and you haven't made any like, actual points against them.

All that said, do you have a proposal for how to eliminate this tendency of the codebases to ignore popular will? or is this more an attempt to convince us we were wrong to go down this road

When I mentioned oversight of brand new systems. I'm specifically talking about the medical changes where cobbiemed cobble stomped the almost brand new medical and chemistry system that worked fine and was really fun.
Also not to mention how long it takes for a crew member to be revived compared to an instant revive and heal rune of cultist antags. Small but very important oversights that can destroy "balance".

[Horza]

tl;dr valid criticisms made in an imperfect way by an unperson, which will be used to ignore those criticisms and anything tangentially related.
The disconnect between the coders and the playerbase is real, same with the disconnect between the admins and the coders, and same with the admins and the playerbase. It's a triangle that's growing apart week by week.
I've been playing on other codebases and other servers for the past month or two and they seem to have things down because their coders or their admins listen to the playerbase instead of force changes through because "it's better in the long run" or whatever the specific excuse is. There's lots of servers and codebases that handle cloning without issue, as a specific example. As a more specific example of how medbay isn't "so much better and engaging" in the long run,

Spoiler:

/vg/station

has both cloning and trek chems and doesn't seem to have the issue of cloning being the default solution nor are the medbay players suddenly found with a dearth of things to do. Medbay works there even on chaotic rounds. Assistant hordes aren't breaking medbay apart to get to the cloners, nor are they yeeting medbay personnel into garbage chutes to get them out of the way. Yet it's simple enough that even a basic skim of the wiki can let any newbie player stabilize injured folks, hand off dead folks to the geneticist, and hand off poor souls to the token surgeon. It's not a problem for them even during highpop times.

Legoscape may be an imperfect soul and you can hurl all the slurs and personal attacks as much as you want, but most of the points made are valid.

[Agux909]

I always follow and still follow the idea of playerbase feedback. Feedback... Feedback... Feedback it's the most important role in the development of any code. These removals were highly disliked and did tank the player count for a long time. Yes, changes could be good for the game but game development ends where a majority of the playerbase dislikes that idea.

Feedback amounts to absolutely nothing if there isn't anyone interested in coding and mantaining a proposed idea, it's the harsh reality. No matter how hard you try to argue about this, you arguing or a thousand arguing isn't gonna magically feed a coder's brain some dopamine for your idea so they do what you want. Noone gets paid for coding so literally the only actual source of motivation is pure passion for moving a project forward, or at least a personal feel for obligation to do so...

When I mentioned oversight of brand new systems. I'm specifically talking about the medical changes where cobbiemed cobble stomped the almost brand new medical and chemistry system that worked fine and was really fun.
Also not to mention how long it takes for a crew member to be revived compared to an instant revive and heal rune of cultist antags. Small but very important oversights that can destroy "balance".

...death being inconsequential already destroyed balance, and inflicted longstanding issues to gameplay, some of which I have already mentioned in my previous post. The solutions that came up in the feedback weren't good enough to realistically solve these problems, and yes, the backlash was seen from a mile. A coder was passionate for the only tangible solution at the time, and acted upon it.

Remember this, Github upvotes/downvotes don't really talk for all the playerbase, and you can't always please everyone. This is the mentality, and maybe other codebases do stuff differently like pushing their coders to please the playerbase even if they disagree or dislike what they are told to do.
Oranges you are of course in your right to discredit my takes here. Maybe you actually pay or threaten coders to fullfill your dark long-term plans for the codebase? Goof seems extremely subservient to you, are you blackmailing him?
I am after all completely ignorant to the inner workings...

Also Lego, it's moot for you to be bringing the fact other codebases talk shit about TG. If they agreed 100% with the policies and the way of doing stuff in here they probably wouldn't have made their own codebases. This has the same relevance as someone here talking shit from some other codebase because they dislike how they do shit there. No codebase is perfect and this will always be the case. Always pleasing the playerbase is gonna result in an imperfect codebase and gameplay issues, not pleasing the playerbase will also result in an imperfect codebase and gameplay issues. It's all a matter of perspective.

Pop shift happens all the time, it goes up and down. Some people play a lot and get burned, others get busy IRL and can't play as much, etc. Right now I'd say from what I can see that it's actually pretty fucking high. There's always a server with a lot of monkeys killing each other. I honestly can't manage to see what you see, sorry. Looks to me it's just preferential, more of a you problem, which is easily solved:

Cope, code, or go away.

[legoscape]

Cope, code, or go away.

True words, However. I know how to use DM but will I ever be allowed to merge anything? Nope. I highly doubt any shmuck can add what they want and I assume the development team will refuse anyone changing their code. So it's more like

Cope, Complain, Go away.

Also Lego, it's moot for you to be bringing the fact other codebases talk shit about TG..

They were not talking shit. They were critiquing the codebase problem. They don't listen to anyone.

[TheFinalPotato]

I'm not going to respond anymore, since it seems like you're working under a poor set of assumptions about what we want and why we do things, and I don't think talking about it will go anywhere fruitful. That said:

This is the issue
Anyway, I asked around developers of other servers like NSV and Yog and Csm. All of them said the same shit I have said. The development is just a mess, One of the people I talked to even brought up the point of developer-to-developer communication but a total lack of communication from the developers to the players which I wholeheartedly agree with. The coders/developers have made excuses of a lack of communication from the players, Whomst don't know how to even fucking touch github. Ya know...The place that has all the development and merges and discussions. This is a shitty excuse to allow 100% freedom to do whatever they want without having to listen to a single person ((This is weird because the players who do use GitHub have downvoted every bad idea from 100 to 300+ downvotes)).

My highly elaborate and college-educated plan.
As soon as possible The developers make a survey system integrated into the "OOC" tab or in the "Changelog" section. This survey system will have a few functions
Questionnaires from the Development team asking the playerbase what they would like see, This could be custom responses or with bullet points from 1-?
Development progress on projects that are highlightable from the github in a progress form. Example : Developing, Testing, Bug-stomping, Merging
A bug report system that does not require a GitHub account; All players could easily use.

The opinions of other server's dev teams are not important, if they agreed with us they'd be coding here.
We don't have 100% freedom to do whatever we want, but we're not obligated to listen to the playerbase. The codebase is an authoritarian meritocracy, not a democracy.

We occasionally do polls about stuff, but we don't agree with the playerbase a lot of the time, so all that would do would be raising people's hopes
Dev reports will occasionally get brought up, they never seem to go anywhere. Partially because changelogs are already a thing, and maybe partially because they tend to be kinda unfun to churn out after a while. Maybe on a monthly schedule or something?
No, for a few reasons. Read this thread https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26705

Stop the merging shenanigans and listen to what the players are saying. Yes, it's awesome that you guys are so invested in seeing your code come to life in the game but don't sacrifice the playerbase for it.

I listen to what the players are saying, I just don't always agree with it at face value. We will often see the same issues at a root, but they'll have some strange or inelegent way of fixing the issue.
That or you're just dealing with people who are acting in bad faith/burned the hell out and just want the game they had 2 years ago, which is why forks like bee and vg exist, since we don't want to give them that anymore.

Oh and I'm not going to quote it, but you seemed to say that cobby med was a shot from the dark from a new and untrained coder, which is just ridiculous to me. Also something about death being a more impactful thing, which was kinda the whole god damn point https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20870 There's more threads like this, but this one's by shadowflame so it's the best

[oranges]

/vg/station has both cloning and trek chems and doesn't seem to have the issue of cloning being the default solution.

they also have no players

[legoscape]

I'm not going to respond anymore, since it seems like you're working under a poor set of assumptions about what we want and why we do things, and I don't think talking about it will go anywhere fruitful.
We don't have 100% freedom to do whatever we want, but we're not obligated to listen to the player base. The codebase is an authoritarian meritocracy, not a democracy.

No, I got it right on the nose. Everything you said sums up all my assumptions; now a fact. I have always believed the development team was far off from what the player base wanted and was never obligated to listen to the player base. I always had this feeling because of what I've observed in the many years I have been playing. I believe the development team has zero communication with the player base. I also have always believed it follows the head maintainer's wishes and wants.

We occasionally do polls about stuff, but we don't agree with the playerbase a lot of the time, so all that would do would be raising people's hopes Dev reports will occasionally get brought up, they never seem to go anywhere. Partially because changelogs are already a thing, and maybe partially because they tend to be kinda unfun to churn out after a while. Maybe on a monthly schedule or something? No, for a few reasons. Read this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26705

"we don't agree with the player base a lot of the time" is such a terrible idea for player retention. For instance, the changes for hydroponics were so widely hated yet the developers forced it on players. I remember a ton of bitching on the forums and an exodus of common players that I have not seen back yet.

Oh and I'm not going to quote it, but you seemed to say that cobby med was a shot from the dark from a new and untrained coder, which is just ridiculous to me.

Yeah, I wonder why? Remove all the fun chemicals, Rename all the chemicals already made by another coder then make damage if at certain thresholds. I'd say that's a shot from the dark. However, to support your argument, cobby surgery has developed into a cool and intricate system with lots of mechanics. I disagree with the length of revives but cobby med has potential if done correctly.

[oranges]

blah ble blu blah bloop

[legoscape]

blah ble blu blah bloop

same

[Qustinnus]

TLDR: You want to bring old players like me back.

no we don't.

[Mothblocks]

I believe the development team has zero communication with the player base.

unfortunately, this thread suggests otherwise

[chocolate_bickie]

Even if chem changes were needed, changing all the names to a less intuitive system is completely pointless and an example of where coders make an unnecessary change that adds nothing to the server.

There was literally no reason the generic healing chems couldn't remain Bicardine/Kelotane etc.

Speaking of watch i've noticed a sharp drop in chemists. Plumbing systems basically never happen after the pH nerf and the only people I see using chem machines are MDs making virus cures ( btw virus buffs were supposed to made virologists relevant but guess what didn't happen).

[Farquaar]

Speaking of watch i've noticed a sharp drop in chemists. Plumbing systems basically never happen after the pH nerf and the only people I see using chem machines are MDs making virus cures ( btw virus buffs were supposed to made virologists relevant but guess what didn't happen).

Weird. Lately I’ve been seeing more chemists than medical doctors on most shifts. At least on Manuel.

[Cimika]

Even if chem changes were needed, changing all the names to a less intuitive system is completely pointless and an example of where coders make an unnecessary change that adds nothing to the server.

There was literally no reason the generic healing chems couldn't remain Bicardine/Kelotane etc.

Speaking of watch i've noticed a sharp drop in chemists. Plumbing systems basically never happen after the pH nerf and the only people I see using chem machines are MDs making virus cures ( btw virus buffs were supposed to made virologists relevant but guess what didn't happen).

I don't know where you're getting that from. In my experience as a MD main, most shifts the MDs/Paramed/Chemists will be using all the dispensers. I personally make my own chems every single shifts, and I frequently see plumbing being done, although not in the old cookie-cutter "20chems in 1 pill" way. Medicines are in a good spot right now.

[Agux909]

Speaking of watch i've noticed a sharp drop in chemists. Plumbing systems basically never happen after the pH nerf and the only people I see using chem machines are MDs making virus cures ( btw virus buffs were supposed to made virologists relevant but guess what didn't happen).

Weird. Lately I’ve been seeing more chemists than medical doctors on most shifts. At least on Manuel.

Nah it's not just on Manuel, lately every round I've played on Sybil has had at least 1 chemist. And nearly every round has had someone secluded in the plumbing room doing or trying to do shit.

[Cimika]

[quoted stuff]
Nah it's not just on Manuel, lately every round I've played on Sybil has had at least 1 chemist. And nearly every round has had someone secluded in the plumbing room doing or trying to do shit.

I feel the same whenever I play or admin any of our servers.

[Mothblocks]

trolled by anecdotes

[oranges]

blah ble blu blah bloop

[TheFinalPotato]

I'm not going to respond anymore, since it seems like you're working under a poor set of assumptions about what we want and why we do things, and I don't think talking about it will go anywhere fruitful.
We don't have 100% freedom to do whatever we want, but we're not obligated to listen to the player base. The codebase is an authoritarian meritocracy, not a democracy.

No, I got it right on the nose. Everything you said sums up all my assumptions; now a fact. I have always believed the development team was far off from what the player base wanted and was never obligated to listen to the player base. I always had this feeling because of what I've observed in the many years I have been playing. I believe the development team has zero communication with the player base. I also have always believed it follows the head maintainer's wishes and wants.

We occasionally do polls about stuff, but we don't agree with the playerbase a lot of the time, so all that would do would be raising people's hopes Dev reports will occasionally get brought up, they never seem to go anywhere. Partially because changelogs are already a thing, and maybe partially because they tend to be kinda unfun to churn out after a while. Maybe on a monthly schedule or something? No, for a few reasons. Read this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26705

"we don't agree with the player base a lot of the time" is such a terrible idea for player retention. For instance, the changes for hydroponics were so widely hated yet the developers forced it on players. I remember a ton of bitching on the forums and an exodus of common players that I have not seen back yet.

Oh and I'm not going to quote it, but you seemed to say that cobby med was a shot from the dark from a new and untrained coder, which is just ridiculous to me.

Yeah, I wonder why? Remove all the fun chemicals, Rename all the chemicals already made by another coder then make damage if at certain thresholds. I'd say that's a shot from the dark. However, to support your argument, cobby surgery has developed into a cool and intricate system with lots of mechanics. I disagree with the length of revives but cobby med has potential if done correctly.

Oh hey you did get it, kinda. Like I said, it's not that I don't listen to players, I just often don't agree with them, and so I will often ignore their opinion.

[cocothegogo]

i do miss singulo though it wasnt even as if it was on any stations you could just order it from cargo and make it if you want

about one of the posts above saying players don't go on github yeah that's true its kinda annoying to use that website imo i struggle to find new prs maybe you guys could start using in game polls to see feedback of prs

[Mothblocks]

i don't think commenting on github could be any more simple except if they removed registration altogether, what's annoying about it?

we even label features and removals and everything so you can find them

[actioninja]

Hey can you give me an example of an open pr right now you would dislike seeing merged

[cacogen]

The up thumbs on pull requests dilute responsibility on behalf of the maintainers merging a PR but at the end of the day you aren't going to dissuade them with down thumbs and even well-reasoned arguments from doing what they think is best for the game/what they want to do. Power is power, friend.

[Cobby]

Even if chem changes were needed, changing all the names to a less intuitive system is completely pointless and an example of where coders make an unnecessary change that adds nothing to the server.

There was literally no reason the generic healing chems couldn't remain Bicardine/Kelotane etc.

Speaking of watch i've noticed a sharp drop in chemists. Plumbing systems basically never happen after the pH nerf and the only people I see using chem machines are MDs making virus cures ( btw virus buffs were supposed to made virologists relevant but guess what didn't happen).

Because Bicardine and Kelotane are popular names across other servers that use trek chems, but these chems dont act like bicardine and kelotane.

Say what you want about the naming scheme but the names absolutely needed to change because the functionality was different.

[oranges]

blah ble blu blah bloop

[wesoda25]

Games in a better place now than it was 2-3 years ago dont @ me