Stun Overhaul Feedback

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:06 pm #54498

Bottom post of the previous page:

Two shots will slow them down a lot. The 3rd shot shouldnt be that hard to land when they are moving at walking speed. They even remain slow once they get back up, until their stamina regens a fair bit.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:52 pm #54515

You can't regularly hit a target with any weapon, I recommend using the tri-shot. I have not had an accuracy problem against individual targets with the disabler because aiming at a target is for suckers and once you hit with any shot you can unload on one guy. The reduced stun times really are what grinds my gears. If anything because it is harder to land the shots consistently the initial stun should be higher and slow should last longer.

That said I could see disablers being really annoying if there is even one person in the room. Not only may there be some body blocking on a level beyond what you see with tasers, but you don't have as much time to actually cuff and drag someone with the stamina system, making it easy for even two people to prevent an arrest. This change was more about making fleeing more viable than standing your ground and taking on all comers, a huge benefit of the stun system was that unless you were extremely clever trying to just up and fight sec was nearly guarenteed to fail. That isn't as true anymore.

Steelpoint wrote:Theorycraft

While increasing the disable pool may make sense, if people are consistently using stuns over disables nerfing their pools down to 4 would suggest that disablers are just not worth using, not that stuns are too good. At that point you are essentially turning this into a huge nerf for security and trying to force disablers to be viable by removing a tool people prefer so much that they are willing to live with essentially one stun per deployment on moving targets. I don't think disablers are actually that bad, but that is the point where the entire change would need to be re-evaluated.

I am with Paprika in the sense that they really need a niche, but the problem seems to be that ammo loading was seen as the primary benefit when it ultimately isn't that helpful. It is hard to carry enough ammo to match the amount of shots a disabler gets without using boxes, meaning that you generally are getting less shots, not more. Inventory management and the mandatory damage is more of a cost than a feature.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:25 pm #54519

This is seriously one of the best things to happen recently.

My experience with disablers as captain was just fine. They are totally cool against single targets, which covers most situations where you need to use it. If you're dealing with a group, laser fire should be fine anyway. On the other hand, nerfing HoPcurity and captaincurity is AWESOME. Eguns not being just better in every way than lasguns and tasers is also good.

Didn't have much experience with projectile weapons, but it call can be tweaked.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:01 am #54551

bulletproof vest makes you hilariously tank against ops. of course that relies on the shots hitting the vest but still.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:03 am #54568

lumipharon wrote:bulletproof vest makes you hilariously tank against ops. of course that relies on the shots hitting the vest but still.

At least it's an improvement to when the bulletproof vest was outright useless against ops since they would just chain stun you with C20Rs

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:19 am #54569

Ironically bulletproof vests used to be graded entirely for melee attacks as they had a good chance of negating damage.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:49 am #54572

I like the disabler addition to tasers and energy guns, considering its now possible for an officer to bring one down to a snails pace for appropriate lasering/beatings.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:51 am #54574

Either way, at bare minimum the disabler ammo needs to be increased. For the Adv Taser for example you only get about 10 disable shots, which is just enough to stun three people if you don't miss a shot, whereas your Stun setting can stun five people.

As I've been saying, this is more of a nerf to Nuke Ops, the Captain, Head of Personal and the Head of Security to a minor extent. Regular Security Officers are not affected by this change.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:31 am #54586

Well give me some specifics as to what you guys want as avid security players:

Tasers (advanced ones) have 500 charge, e-guns have 1000.

Taser shots take 100 charge to use, and disabler shots take 50.

Should it be 25 for disabler shots or something? That'd be a fuckload of disable shots for eguns but they've always been better than tasers generally speaking.

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:05 am #54589

If you're gonna nerf the energy gun, then make the tasers only shoot disabler shots too, otherwise there's literally no reason to use the energy gun and the HoP/captain will steal a taser every round instead.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:30 am #54595

mikecari wrote:the energy gun and the HoP/captain will steal a taser every round instead.

Let them fucking try.

At worst, that would indicate shitty captain that you can easily betray when necessary.

At best, HoP's naked in interrogation for breaking and entering.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:08 pm #54634

Tasers should be useless in combat but robust as shit for arresting. The reason is so that officers don't have to play quake 3a every time they try to arrest someone, their ability to *unzip taser* and pop a perp is good. However, I could lower the range of the electrodes really easily, to 5, so they're even more situational compared to disabler beams.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:39 pm #54640

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
mikecari wrote:the energy gun and the HoP/captain will steal a taser every round instead.
Let them fucking try.

At worst, that would indicate shitty captain that you can easily betray when necessary.

At best, HoP's naked in interrogation for breaking and entering.

So even if you were to be a good captain, nabbing a taser for personal safety is seen as shitlerly?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:57 pm #54643

mikecari wrote:If you're gonna nerf the energy gun, then make the tasers only shoot disabler shots too

What? Security needs the hard stun. This has been discussed and agreed upon.

mikecari wrote: otherwise there's literally no reason to use the energy gun and the HoP/captain will steal a taser every round instead.

>no reason to use the energy gun
>harmlasers doing 30 per shot
>greater disabler capacity

What people seem to be missing is that it seems to be less of a nerf to the Energy Gun and more of a repurposing. At the end of the day, it is a gun. It's primary purpose is to harm. Sure, it may have a handy stun setting for certain situations but at the end of the day it's just laser+, especially with the removal of it's spammable instant stun.

On another note if hard stuns are slowly phased out we'll start seeing Security abusing flashbangs, and fucking nobody wants that shit

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:44 pm #54646

RG4 wrote:So even if you were to be a good captain, nabbing a taser for personal safety is seen as shitlerly?

What "personal safety"? From what? Yeah, I would say that I consider nabbing guns from armory at round start as a head a shitlery.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:54 pm #54647

RG4 wrote:So even if you were to be a good captain, nabbing a taser for personal safety is seen as shitlerly?

You have an e-gun for personal defense. Tasers are for making arrests, and that's not the captain's job.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:09 pm #54648

rockpecker wrote:
RG4 wrote:So even if you were to be a good captain, nabbing a taser for personal safety is seen as shitlerly?
You have an e-gun for personal defense. Tasers are for making arrests, and that's not the captain's job.

So long as a weapon like the Taser exists, it will always be objectively superior to any other non-one hit stun weapon available. Thus in the current meta the Advance Taser is THE best on-station weapon you can acquire at round start.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:11 pm #54651

Steelpoint wrote:So long as a weapon like the Taser exists, it will always be objectively superior to any other non-one hit stun weapon available. Thus in the current meta the Advance Taser is THE best on-station weapon you can acquire at round start.

Yeah, what's your point? The captain is not entitled to be the most heavily-armed person on the station just because he's the captain. The President of the United States doesn't carry a rocket launcher around for personal defense against people in tanks.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:13 pm #54654

Yeah, but the president doesn't normally have a possibly hopelessly incompetent security team and a whole handful of traitorous, murderous bastards in his direct proximity.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:05 pm #54671

More to the point the captain actually is entitled to have pretty much anything he wants and could just order the HoS and Warden to give him a taser. They start with the e-gun because it used to be the presumably best gun in the armory, and as such they start with one so they don't have to waste time taking them, so that newbies are not penalized for not realizing they need them, and to keep the armory supply intact.

HoP is a bit less lucky but could illegally loot the armory and often people don't care if he takes one weapon.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:43 pm #54676

HoP is in charge of cargo, he could order himself as many guns as he wanted in theory

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:12 am #54686

But does he have acc...oh, wait, HoP.

Incomptinence · Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:09 am

paprika wrote:
Should it be 25 for disabler shots or something? That'd be a fuckload of disable shots for eguns but they've always been better than tasers generally speaking.

Yes please. Gunfights becoming pew pew lasertag would be fantastic.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:47 am #54716

I always thought 20 was more than enough shots for the Egun.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:59 am #54717

Well adv tasers only have 10

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:07 am #54718

I love the idea of actual firefights with beams flying everywhere (we had an ACTUAL lasertag match with multiple people on each side one time and it was fantastic) but the problem is that most of the time one side is going to opt to run away and those firefights never really develop, or civilians get in the way or something

which I don't really know how to remedy
so yeah give them more shots

Incomptinence · Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:36 am

A disabler shot being half the charge of a taser shot is pretty goofy. The complaint with the old system wasn't too many people potentially stunned per charge it was one shot taking you out near instantly. Disab beams being 25 charge seems pretty reasonable, 4 shots to a taser shot, allows you more margin of error than tasers while still allowing more chances for the enemy to fight back or evade. Also more shots in gunfights sounds potentially exciting if we have the capacity to support it.

qwert · Post by **qwert** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:55 am #54771

Does ebow keep its stun with unlimited projectile range?

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:57 am #54778

Yeah, cut ebow's range.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:48 pm #54801

ebow range is 10, dunno why that number exactly but eh. Also it's damaged got buffed to 15.

peoplearestrange · Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:49 pm

Personally I love the new stun system. Its really changed things up, allowing antags to properly run away if they choose or ACTUALLY be stunned even if they run in circles in the same place.

But mostly because stun through windows... oh my god that's saved me so many times as a sec officer.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:03 pm #54843

Changes being proposed as of now:

Buff adv taser's disable shots to 20 (same as egun)
Rename adv taser to hybrid taser
Rework nuke op guns, add tactical reloading for the C90 (tactical reloading involves hitting your weapon with your magazine to dump the old magazine and load the new one, so that reloading the grenade launcher is less clunky)
Add attachable seclites to eguns, advanced tasers, and pulse weapons
Rework ebow to have limited ammo, but be reloadable (you can pick up your bolts after you shoot them, like a real bow, essentially unlimited ammo without the easy mode)

Thoughts?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:55 pm #54887

paprika wrote:-snip-

Everything seems pretty good, but I'm a bit on the fence about the ebow one. What about shots that hit? Can you pull them out of the target? Otherwise, all good.

peoplearestrange · Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:04 pm

paprika wrote:Changes being proposed as of now:

Buff adv taser's disable shots to 20 (same as egun)
Rename adv taser to hybrid taser
Rework nuke op guns, add tactical reloading for the C90 (tactical reloading involves hitting your weapon with your magazine to dump the old magazine and load the new one, so that reloading the grenade launcher is less clunky)
Add attachable seclites to eguns, advanced tasers, and pulse weapons
Rework ebow to have limited ammo, but be reloadable (you can pick up your bolts after you shoot them, like a real bow, essentially unlimited ammo without the easy mode)

Thoughts?

I'm not sure why the taser needs 20 shots? I never seem to run out more than when it was the 1 hit taser with 5 shots? Has it been a pain for anyone else or are we just doing this to level it with the E-Gun? (which needs to be better than a taser in some ways)

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:07 pm #54896

Buff adv taser's disable shots to 20 (same as egun)

Awesome. Sounds like an apt amount of shots.

Rework nuke op guns, add tactical reloading for the C90 (tactical reloading involves hitting your weapon with your magazine to dump the old magazine and load the new one, so that reloading the grenade launcher is less clunky)

And by rework, I presume instant knockdown on certain guns is back? Also yay less clicks for reload

Add attachable seclites to eguns, advanced tasers, and pulse weapons

Is this the beginning of the tacticool attachment era, where people fight in OOC about which one is statistically better? I'm all for it.

Rework ebow to have limited ammo, but be reloadable (you can pick up your bolts after you shoot them, like a real bow, essentially unlimited ammo without the easy mode)

A little iffy on this one. Even if you give the ability to buy more bolts (Because every other limited-shot traitor item has purchasable ammo. Beyond that, I'd say the change warrants a cost reduction.
Additionally, can you recover bolts from dead people? How many bolts will you have to start?

AssassinT90 · Post by **AssassinT90** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:20 pm #54903

Why don't we just make two separate batteries for disable/stun mode (taser) and disable/laser mode (e-gun)? That'd certainly be a nice buff.

At any rate, I really like these new changes. Combat is now more than "one hit, game over." The only downside I can see is that armored units can pretty much ignore stamina damage, so the captain is rather defenseless against a hardsuited nuke ops, which should not happen. Overall, I feel that the disable mode needs a buff. I'd say it shouldn't be affect by armor so much.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:45 am #54960

Honestly the big draw (heh) of the ebow is the fact it recharges. Sticking around to pick ammo off the floor is time consuming and risky. Also it's an e-bow, in the it fires an electrode thingy, not a physicaly bolt. Otherwise we might as well just call it bow. Actually, a ghetto bow weapon would be pretty hilarious, if you could make arrows in a similar way to spears.

Reload change to the C-90 will be nice, but the firemode thing is still bugged on the live server. Did a fix get merged?

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:02 am #54964

Ive always liked the idea of having an ammo box for ballistic guns. Clicking on bullets/shells with the ammo box will pick them up from the floor, then clicking the gun with the ammo box will quickly reload it. Similar to have Plant Bags and Light Replacers work. Would make reloading and carrying ammo much less tedious for those guns.

The Ebow change does seem annoying, but on the other hand it will stop the run n gun style of play we sometimes see, and instead force traitors to use it carefully and only when they know they can recover the ammo from the corpse. No more spamming the thing.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:18 am #54966

There already are ammo boxes for most bullet types in the game. You use them to refill magazines - being able to refill guns straight from them would be a tad OP though, considering that's a one click reload, and ammo boxes have a large capacity.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:37 am #54970

I really dislike the egun change most. HoS relies on Eguns heavily as his primary weapon, and removing the stun function just make it really lame and useless. Disablers as shown are well, just that, useless. I dislike the tone of "eguns won't be getting back their stun function" because imo, it makes the egun entirely worthless for what it is supposed to be.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:59 am #54982

lumipharon wrote:There already are ammo boxes for most bullet types in the game. You use them to refill magazines - being able to refill guns straight from them would be a tad OP though, considering that's a one click reload, and ammo boxes have a large capacity.

Unless this has changed (I'll have to find some time to test it) you could already load revolvers with ammo boxes directly.

AssassinT90 · Post by **AssassinT90** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:35 am #54985

So... I go to HoP's office to get my access boost. Then I see this:

Code: Select all

Gregory Lewis has beaten Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!
The advanced taser is now set to disable.
Gregory Lewis has cracked Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!
Gregory Lewis has beaten Allen Marshall in the left leg with the telescopic baton!
Allen Marshall says, "STOP."
Gregory Lewis has beaten Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!
Gregory Lewis has struck Allen Marshall in the left leg with the telescopic baton!
Allen Marshall says, "S-HRNK"
Gregory Lewis has cracked Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!

Of course that, as a sec officer, I couldn't let that happen.

Code: Select all

You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
Gregory Lewis has struck Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis has beaten Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
Gregory Lewis has cracked Allen Marshall in the left arm with the telescopic baton!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis has cracked Allen Marshall in the right leg with the telescopic baton!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
You fire the advanced taser!
Gregory Lewis is hit by a disabler beam in the head!
Gregory Lewis has beaten Allen Marshall in the head with the telescopic baton!

You know how many fucks the HoP gave to being shot at with a disabler 7 times? That's right. No fucks were given. He just finished killing the guy, turned around, and laughed.

Honestly, I see the potential in the disabler, but with it being so shitty against (even lightly) armored people, it's just something I'm gonna use at the clown, and not on those bad nuke ops that are trying to murder me. Those bad nuke ops, on the other hand, still have enough firepower to kill the whole station twice.

HoP's armor:

Spoiler:

Ergovisavi · Post by **Ergovisavi** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:49 am #54986

Fun fact, paprika changed disablers to be children of lasers, as opposed to having the energy flag they used to, so it now checks against laser protection

Everything and their mother has laser protection, making disablers laughably useless. Good job paprika.

HoP's cap has 50% laser resistance, so every disabler shot does 18 damage, for an astounding 6 required shots to take down the HoP from headshots.

10/10

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:58 am #54987

That doesn't really explain why they the HoP didn't go down from 7 shots

!!SCIENCE!! needs to be done.

Ergovisavi · Post by **Ergovisavi** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:02 am #54988

Malkevin wrote:That doesn't really explain why they the HoP didn't go down from 7 shots

!!SCIENCE!! needs to be done.

That's because his inherent stamina recovery probably gave him enough ticks inbetween shots

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:08 am #54990

Ergovisavi wrote:Fun fact, paprika changed disablers to be children of lasers, as opposed to having the energy flag they used to, so it now checks against laser protection

10/10 indeed.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:38 am #54992

Saegrimr wrote:
Ergovisavi wrote:Fun fact, paprika changed disablers to be children of lasers, as opposed to having the energy flag they used to, so it now checks against laser protection
10/10 indeed.

If snarky posts are ergo's way of reporting bugs I agree 10/10 would make butthurt again, he's literally reported more bugs with my PR than anyone else through his epic passive aggressive posts about it because his awful PR didn't get merged.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:48 am #54993

Revolver ammo boxes were the oddity. That's why they're now speedloaders, like .38 instead of ammo boxes.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:52 am #54994

Antonkr wrote:I really dislike the egun change most. HoS relies on Eguns heavily as his primary weapon, and removing the stun function just make it really lame and useless. Disablers as shown are well, just that, useless. I dislike the tone of "eguns won't be getting back their stun function" because imo, it makes the egun entirely worthless for what it is supposed to be.

A stun and lase ezmode weapon? No thanks, the stun function on the egun is for making targets easier to fill with lasers or smack with your telebaton, fuck the tase and lase mentality to infinity and byond.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:03 am #54995

Leave the Ebow with unlimited ammo but just reduce it's range and make it's cooldown a little bit longer. Giving it limited ammo will make it near useless.

And a question, is there anyway for changelings to reduce the disabler damager? I tried using fleshmend but that didn't work and using the overdose doesn't really help since you will move so slowly.

Ergovisavi · Post by **Ergovisavi** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:05 am #54996

There is no method currently available in the game to heal stamina damage other than the passive regeneration you constantly have going, or sleeping. I added it to my PR, but since this one was added instead, changelings are fucked.