CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

[skoglol]

Bottom post of the previous page:

- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.

Wasn't the point of lobectomy and coronary bypass that they are not repeatable? They directly set organ damage to 60 and prevent you from repeating the operation.

hepatectomy is powercreeped compared to the two former, setting damage to 10 and allows the surgery to be repeated. It should probably be brought in line since it pretty much invalidates liver transplants.

You're right, I misread code. Heart, lungs, liver ones set a value which is fine so reverted repeatable on those. Brain surgery now has a repeatable step and give you some feedback once it finishes to indicate you might need to do it again.

[Super Aggro Crag]

The conclusion of "doctors are frustrated doing a sisyphean task" is not "they will do it, they have nothing better to do", it's they will stop being doctors or quit all together.

This is simple logic.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently.

Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

[Sheodir]

Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

Not to turn this into "he said she said" but my source is basically this thread and the Github PR. People who said "as a CMO player" or "as a Medbay player" tended to be supportive, I haven't yet seen a Medbay main that doesn't seem to be (amidst the circle of people who play and talk w me) please to some degree, and most players aggressively attacking the decision either by their own admission or by their lacking Medbay knowledge seem not to play Medbay at all.

Anecdotal as shit and burden of proof etc so feel free to ignore it if it bothers you. But I sure haven't seen less players on Medbay recently, and when I logged into Terry it was as full as Manuel's has consistently been.

[Qbopper]

I can't comment on the current state of affairs, but medical is my favorite role, and the only thing I've seen about it through the years that's stayed the same: people who don't play medbay and have no interest playing medbay making sweeping statements about the medical system and claiming that no one likes X change or Y proposal

[Super Aggro Crag]

Medbay is my most often played role and I'm getting real sick of people saying "I disagree with you therefore your opinion is anecdotal and invalid because I saw another guy said he smelled a medkit once and loves the changes."

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

[Sheodir]

snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread

[Ziiro]

I'm not sure why this thread is open and you're still going through the rigmarole of testmerging and pretending this is still being decided. The powers that be have already decided. Just get it over with.

[skoglol]

I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?

[MMMiracles]

I mean it was pretty obvious from the get-go the main purpose of the feedback thread is to point out issues that'd arise from the lack of cloning so steps can be taken to amend them before making the final push. They're gutting cloning but they're still making sure revival and general patient care is still reasonable without the crutch cloning was.

[Ziiro]

I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?

"Feedback" != "Adjustments"

To put better:
Feedback would imply that if you had enough people with good arguments saying "Hey, this is a pretty bad idea, don't do this" you might reverse course. That is clearly not what is going to happen here. Instead it's "This is going to happen, we need to know what to adjust to make it less bad when it does happen"

[Super Aggro Crag]

snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.

[Ziiro]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies

behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!

[Super Aggro Crag]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies

behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!

i agree with this guy

[skoglol]

Well believe it or not, there hasnt in my opinion been any good arguments for non-removal that cant either be solved by rather small code fixes or will solve themselves as players get used to playing medbay without cloning. People ghosting instead of waiting around is part of that transition, and it happened a lot before too but since the cloner dont write forum posts you never heard about them.

The entire point of opening the PR and moving to testmerge is to test the waters and see if we are ready for it from a code perspective. And while there are still things that could benefit from ironing out I do believe we are.

[Sheodir]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.

Gotta admit my bias because I mostly play Manuel, where this hasn't been my experience in Medbay. Is this mostly on Event Hall or Terry or do we play in different times?

I think it's telling though that the worst aspect is *people* giving up on doctors healing them, not the difficulty of revival itself. I do think revival is as viable as it's always been but that people are just more pessimistic on this adaptation period. Organ damage could afford to be tweaked a bit though, I think everyone and their mom has shouted at Cobby about that.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Im only on manuel as well Sheodir

[Mickyan]

I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to

[Sheodir]

Im only on manuel as well Sheodir

That's... weird. I admit I mostly play Paramedic on EST Night times, just about, but I see most people being revived and only experienced one FUCK HE'S GONE AND I WASTED MY TIME with a plasmaman I took way too long to rez due to a sudden bout of SSD in the middle. I'll try and turn off Sec for a bit and see how it goes in Manuel tonight, force myself to look at Medbay a bit more.

In general this hasn't been my experience as PM and Morgue has mostly been a couple bodies at most, but it's worth checking into more, since I THINK you play CMO, if I'm guessing your in-game name correctly?

I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to

Long shifts in Manuel are weird. People just kinda give up on the whole thing and I did see an uptick in abandoned bodies in Morgue during these, but I do feel it's more of an issue of the brain just going BORED NOW whenever a shift goes for close to 2 hours. As HoS it's been my personal hell since people just up and give the fuck up on trying to even stick to their own gimmicks - we had a clown taxi that'd behaved the whole shift just go BORED NOW and start aggressively kidnapping people and basically forcing a shuttle call by himself.

So yeah, not a great example to fit all rounds in.

[Super Aggro Crag]

I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

It's worth putting into context that the round had been going on for very long time and we had people that started hurting/killing themselves for the fun of it so I don't think it's fair to treat it like it's the norm, because I've never had such a terrible experience on manuel before

People that ghost in the middle of treatment are dicks, though, and I'm not going to excuse their behavior because of any code change. I'd much rather start writing down names of people that don't deserve to waste my time if I really have to

Share that list with me please

[Anonmare]

I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.

[Qbopper]

I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.

it's the most common fucking thing

for fucks sake i want to play the game and heal people and everyone has 2 nanoseconds of attention span

[Timonk]

Please don't put me on the DNR list

[Sheodir]

I find it a bit funny that the problem is people giving up on the doctor rather than the reverse.

It's def the best "pro cloning" argument but at the same time I feel people might adapt and have to other changes such as these in the past

but then I catch myself betting on ss13 players not being idiots and I'm a sec main and my brain glitches out for a hot second

[Muncher21]

First of all, my scrubby link as proof I mostly play CMO/MD

Spoiler:

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/muncher21

The cloning changes have made medbay massively more fun to play. MD's and CMO feel like actual crew members who have an impact on the station, not just a special flavor of assistant that hangs out in medbay. I used to play piano songs as an MD because there was nothing to do, and I definitely couldn't do that now (which is good)

I also haven't seen a single person ghost on me while I'm reviving them. I have revived souless bodies, but they were always souless when I started on them.

[SkeletalElite]

First of all, my scrubby link as proof I mostly play CMO/MD

Spoiler:

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/muncher21

The cloning changes have made medbay massively more fun to play. MD's and CMO feel like actual crew members who have an impact on the station, not just a special flavor of assistant that hangs out in medbay. I used to play piano songs as an MD because there was nothing to do, and I definitely couldn't do that now (which is good)

I also haven't seen a single person ghost on me while I'm reviving them. I have revived souless bodies, but they were always souless when I started on them.

The question is whether or not removing cloning increases the amount of souless bodies. Are people just leaving/server hopping when they die because they have no hope that they're going to be revived in a subjective reasonable amount of time?

I think that's the most likely negative outcome of removing cloning. People who want to play the game just server hopping/doing something else rather than sit around and wait for revival. If your body gets taken to medbay quickly I think this has little impact but even if your body ends up in a locker for more than a few minutes any hope of a quick revival is basically out the window.

Much of the argument for this has been that some edge cases will take a lot of effort and that's okay, but I think that in a lot of these edge cases the ghost will just leave out of hopelessness.

[oranges]

ADHD people will sort themselves out of the playerbase, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Ziiro]

Alright so having now played a fairly chaotic round as doctor with this change: it's bad, folks.

Positive: I feel busy and I feel useful. Medical is engaging.

Negative: Every single issue beyond "take this suture and fuck off" requires in depth surgery and standing around for long periods of time watching a progress bar
Negative: Bodies everywhere, by the time you actually get to them they don't respond to revival
Negative I was doing back to back surgeries for at least 30-45 minutes and I had another doctor to help me. This was with ~40-50 players. The amount of attention demanded for each situation scales horribly with player pop.

Bug: Unlike the surgery table/stasis bed, the roller bed doesn't stop you from beating the shit out of patients when you use the wrong tool.

Additional: Blood loss is basically permadeath for the body if the situation is bad. If you have no extra blood, that just means that people who are too low to survive on their own and process reagents for extra blood will never survive off the stasis bed. I'm probably wrong in this, but it's just dumb. Can the organ harvester also output containers of blood, while it's at it?

[SpinnerMaster]

[nianjiilical]

Additional: Blood loss is basically permadeath for the body if the situation is bad. If you have no extra blood, that just means that people who are too low to survive on their own and process reagents for extra blood will never survive off the stasis bed. I'm probably wrong in this, but it's just dumb. Can the organ harvester also output containers of blood, while it's at it?

1) take a blood sample from someone with a syringe
2) go to pharmacy and make 90s unstable mutagen (30u chlorine 30u radium 30u phosphorus)
3) inject blood to turn it into 95u of whatever blood type they have

though i bet now that i said this it's going to get nerfed

also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people

[Muncher21]

Spoiler:

Round ID? I'm super curious about the a lot of context behind this picture, station time, number of antags, number of medical staff etc.

[SpinnerMaster]

Spoiler:

Round ID? I'm super curious about the a lot of context behind this picture, station time, number of antags, number of medical staff etc.

129299

[Muncher21]

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/129299

Looks like an insane round with 58 deaths (the entire crew). Antags were revs, aliums, and whatever dynamic spawned that I missed. All that with only two paramedics and a single MD to try and handle it all.

Honestly to me this looks like exactly what should happen during a round like this, especially if medbay only has one doctor. Another interesting point is the connected clients stayed extremely stable, but that may just be the round was entertaining to watch.

[Shadowflame909]

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/129299

Looks like an insane round with 58 deaths (the entire crew). Antags were revs, aliums, and whatever dynamic spawned that I missed. All that with only two paramedics and a single MD to try and handle it all.

Honestly to me this looks like exactly what should happen during a round like this, especially if medbay only has one doctor. Another interesting point is the connected clients stayed extremely stable, but that may just be the round was entertaining to watch.

Antags don't deserve to steamroll the station.

Wheres the fun in the villains always winning?

I think its time to remove the antag freeze so we can get thing lings to replace wizard lings

[wesoda25]

Actually a good point, we've received a lot of crew content and a lot of stuff has been balanced. In comparison it has become very obvious what aspects of antags now need nerfing in order to keep the game kinda sorta not that terribly balanced. Medical rework seems pretty much done now, why not lift the freeze?

[Kryson]

also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people

Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.

stasis would be fine if it made the patient untreatable while under the effect and was just designed to give doctors some breathing room, but today where it allows the doctor to fix the patient in a totally consequence free environment is bad design in my opinion.

I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

look shadowflame, the point of stasis is that it is the monster truck sized training wheels that prevents anything medical related from ever going off the rails since if it does, you just strap them to the magic machine and tend wounds / replace blood / fix their organs / dose them with enough drugs to survive without any chance of the patient deteriorating.

[Shadowflame909]

also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people

Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.

Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

Stasis beds are op

this, i dont get why people just remove x and buff y so people dont complain, then they remove y and buff z in a loop, they should just be nerfed to "slow down" metabolism/bloodloss/decomposing but not a timestop watch like in those japanese porns

[Timonk]

also i definitely think that if stasis beds are going to be necessary for surgery every map should have a least 4, only two makes it too easy to run out of room for people

Stasis beds are not necessary, they are just a magical machine that removes all urgency for medical gameplay.

They were ridiculous even before they were powercreeped to be surgical tables++.

Now doctors feel entitled to never losing a patient due to blood loss, poisons or missing organs and demand that everything should be able to be done while the patient is in stasis.

Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

I second this

[Sheodir]

Unironically opposite opinion here: It's not futuristically fun if it's not magical.

If all of the easy "wow glad we're in the future so this task has been made so much easier" stuff gets removed, this game becomes a corporate dystopia of the worst kind.

And i'm not here to play a sad reality simulator. I'm here to play a wacky space station that goes off the rails simulator.

I honestly prefer "superscience" more than "magical" (tenuous line) but I feel removing stasis bed is misguided. Whilst cloning affected game balance negatively and made a role a lot more boring stasis beds just stabilize organ decay and make decay more about the pressure to find a body rather than the pressure to then speedrun surgery lest it cascades into failure.

Also important to note that whilst stasis beds fit "superscience", so did cloning. My problem with cloning was never thematic.

[Muncher21]

Antags don't deserve to steamroll the station.

Wheres the fun in the villains always winning?

I think its time to remove the antag freeze so we can get thing lings to replace wizard lings

I don't see how one round of the antags winning means they steamroll all the time.

Win loss ratio for this month seems extremely balanced, almost 50/50 for all game modes except wizard which never won once. Obviously this is a small sample size of games with cloning removed, but I think it's far to early to declare antags as "steamrolling the station" every round.

[peoplearestrange]

Win loss ratio for this month seems extremely balanced, almost 50/50 for all game modes except wizard which never won once. Obviously this is a small sample size of games with cloning removed, but I think it's far to early to declare antags as "steamrolling the station" every round.

This is across ALL /tg/ servers. This includes the sybil 2 day long rounds. It includes all of Terry's quick dynamic rounds and it includes the forced balance of no murderbone/rev/cult on Manuel.

Im not really sure you can use that as an accurate measure of game modes.

[Super Aggro Crag]

valid point, peoplearestrange

[Muncher21]

This is across ALL /tg/ servers. This includes the sybil 2 day long rounds. It includes all of Terry's quick dynamic rounds and it includes the forced balance of no murderbone/rev/cult on Manuel.

Im not really sure you can use that as an accurate measure of game modes.

Is there a better way to look at the data? I'd prefer the W/L ratio across all servers then anecdotal "No one was reviving people during rev/aliens round" once, therefore antags steamroll every round ever.

[Dr_bee]

W/L ratios are very poor data in a a game like SS13, where the quality of the round is more important than the win itself. Sure the wins might be even, but if a crew win is always a 25 minute code red shuttle rush and the cult win is always a cult-tide snowball curb-stomp it doesn't matter what the ratio is.

[Sheodir]

W/L ratios are very poor data in a a game like SS13, where the quality of the round is more important than the win itself. Sure the wins might be even, but if a crew win is always a 25 minute code red shuttle rush and the cult win is always a cult-tide snowball curb-stomp it doesn't matter what the ratio is.

I think player skill also factors a lot in it. Other day in Manuel I got Nuke Ops but one of my Ops fucked off wordlessly and another managed to suffocate himself with a 1 tile hallway breach whilst sneaking around

So y'know, you always gotta account for player stupidity

The game being steamrolls for both sides is def still a problem, for example if revs/cult gets caught early on they lose really fast, but if they gain traction they're basically unbeatable 99% of the time

[Arathian]

Update of sorts?

I still see a lot of dead bodies never fixed/fixed so slowly they go perma-ssd.

When a huge problem breaks out, bodies simply never get fixed. I was cult leader today and we had some fights and, guess what, security collapsed because no one got fixed. I eventually simply waltzed into medbay and beheaded all the remaining doctors while 5-6 bodies laid in piles.

On "normal" amount of bodies, medbay can usually keep up, but on either mass murder antags (like revs/cult) or in dynamic servers (like Terry) sudden spikes of bodies are usual and I have never seen medbay keep up with them so far.

I still dislike this meta.

The current PR updating stuff like brain damage etc is great though.

Please add a PR about missing/spilled organs though. That's still a huge issue I see doctors getting fucked over with.

[Sheodir]

Update of sorts?

I still see a lot of dead bodies never fixed/fixed so slowly they go perma-ssd.

When a huge problem breaks out, bodies simply never get fixed. I was cult leader today and we had some fights and, guess what, security collapsed because no one got fixed. I eventually simply waltzed into medbay and beheaded all the remaining doctors while 5-6 bodies laid in piles.

On "normal" amount of bodies, medbay can usually keep up, but on either mass murder antags (like revs/cult) or in dynamic servers (like Terry) sudden spikes of bodies are usual and I have never seen medbay keep up with them so far.

I still dislike this meta.

The current PR updating stuff like brain damage etc is great though.

Please add a PR about missing/spilled organs though. That's still a huge issue I see doctors getting fucked over with.

I do think if we made stasis beds more plentiful and default for surgery it'd control for this a lot. Organ decay can be a ticking issue.

[imsxz]

ive been playing medical recently to be able to confidently take a stance on the cloning changes. i enjoy it, it feels a lot more rewarding to be a fast doctor than it did in the past. Just had a shift on bagil where a bomb went off near medbay and 2 people were beheaded in maint. We were able to stitch the corpses including bomb victims back together in the time that the roundstart cloner would have been able to clone 1 of them. The recent surgery and defib changes have made medbay a lot stronger when staffed by a competent crew, and frankly i think it is a good change for the game overall.

[Shadowflame909]

ive been playing medical recently to be able to confidently take a stance on the cloning changes. i enjoy it, it feels a lot more rewarding to be a fast doctor than it did in the past. Just had a shift on bagil where a bomb went off near medbay and 2 people were beheaded in maint. We were able to stitch the corpses including bomb victims back together in the time that the roundstart cloner would have been able to clone 1 of them. The recent surgery and defib changes have made medbay a lot stronger when staffed by a competent crew, and frankly i think it is a good change for the game overall.

You've never disliked a nerf

Edit: but you don't die often either...

[Critawakets]

Cloning removal only really works on Manuel where there is no murderboning. Fixing like, 5 patients at most is fine, but fixing up an entire station bloody well isnt.

Infact, no murderboning just makes the game more fun. Put it on all servers since imsxz isnt admin anymore.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Theres murderboning on manuel, silent skeleton pirates keep butchering the crew