Bottom post of the previous page:
Please respond with your thoughts on my feedback on the last post of the third page. Curious what you think of them.Noka wrote:4dplanner wrote:snip
Bottom post of the previous page:
Please respond with your thoughts on my feedback on the last post of the third page. Curious what you think of them.Noka wrote:4dplanner wrote:snip
My main frustration at the moment is that as per the last post of page three I'm trying to actually talk about the cloning removal feedback and instead most of this thread is either oranges and others going "lol this good y mad" and people who don't like oranges walling huge complaints about him. Can we please just continue discussing the PR? The guy who pushed it did try to actually talk about it but has been radio silence still.deedubya wrote:Oranges acts the way he does because even if he takes the high road - being patient and explaining reasoning for changes to people - 95% of them will still call him a retard and demand shit be done their way instead. Why even attempt to reason with people that won't be swayed regardless of what you say?
He also winds up having to take the heat for changes that he isn't necessarily responsible for, and is expected to be able to answer on their behalf...although there's less sympathy for that one because that just comes with the territory of being the head of a project. If you're calling the shots, you have to take the flak for the decisions that get made under your watch.
whySuper Aggro Crag wrote:i disagree.
this is the exact opposite of what people were trying to getSince it is likely to be an issue, replica pod availability has been reduced along the lines of what I have discussed. They are no longer roundstart in the botany seed vendors and the cargo crate now has 1 pack instead of 3. Leaves it available for now, but requiring you to buy the starter seeds (and grow more) or mutate some cabbages. These are already low seed yield ranging from 1-2 seeds per generation depending on yield, so should be fine as they require effort™.
Because Y isn't equivalent to X, obviously. Pod revival is a more lengthy process, doesn't work on husked corpses, and has the downside of forcing you into a podperson. Ergo, consequence for death, and not a piss easy revival. If anything, we should be encouraging methods like this, not trying to discourage revival in general.Cobby wrote:If you remove X and bump Y up to the point X may has well not been removed, what's the point of removing X?
if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
BECAUSEPKPenguin321 wrote:if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
If you're not adding much to the conversation, please post in NTR hut insteadSuper Aggro Crag wrote:<snip>PKPenguin321 wrote:if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
Whilst I'm not fully in favor of Baymed making healing a less instantaneous process would be great. Could use all the now extra space with cloning gone for actual wards where people can heal up and even arr pee in the arr pee servers with Docs and such. Not sure what the best way to balance this is - because you'll always have quick ways to heal certain types of damage. One very old suggestion was for all damage to go from 0 to 200 as it is but anything past 100 had to be healed either slowly or through chems and was bold to signify "longterm" damage.adamkad1 wrote:So, being someone who played on baystation, im not really opposed to cloning removal, but the big difference is that bay does not have shitchems (bay's chems however, do not repair things instantly, heck, they are pretty slow, meaning you have to stick around in medbay, or somewhere else when healing, which i think is good. Didnt someone suggest porting baymed? Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me
Cybernetic organs (basic shit versions) are available roundstart, better ones by research. Organic ones can also be printed in the limb grower now (could use a rename).adamkad1 wrote:Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me
That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.kopoba wrote:So only alternative to cloning now is removing humanazied monkey head and replace it with dead man one. Fast and easy just like cloning.
All other shity procedures will include fixinng ~200-400 damage of brut/burn, printing liver,lungs, heart, replacing them in victim. Maybe printing limbs and attaching them. This shit will take around 10 minutes or more. If i remember right brain also taking damage over time so i think if body lays to long you must get brain from body use mantilol on it and insert it back. +~3minutes to do surgery and get mantitol.
Imagine how many operation you must do to revive one man versus cloning.
Nah point is that im dead please restartSheodir wrote: That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.
Humanized monkey exploit should and likely will be removed.
People having this mentality is exactly why cloning was bad for the game.kopoba wrote: Nah point is that im dead please restart
Death is not fun and waiting single doctor to process 6 dead dudes that will take one hour and average time of shift of 30-40 minutes meh
Amen. Med-bay is actually fun to play now, and you feel like you actually matter to the station.Sheodir wrote:Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
a real response to this would be appreciatedPKPenguin321 wrote:if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
The short answer is that later down the line making an actual comeback to cloning that requires way more research, time, and development is totally viablePKPenguin321 wrote:a real response to this would be appreciatedPKPenguin321 wrote:if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.PKPenguin321 wrote:a real response to this would be appreciatedPKPenguin321 wrote:if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
If pod cloning became a main stream method of revival is that really a bad thing though? Pod cloning is more effort that the cloner is and I'm not even sure pod cloning would become the goto for revival if it was.skoglol wrote: Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.
I have stated a few times already why I think time gating cloning isnt the right way to move forward, both in this thread and on github.
deedubya wrote:Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.deedubya wrote:Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.skoglol wrote:And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.
I'm relatively new on the forums despite being a very old login ckey on /tg/, but let this be clear and valid for everything I ever say: I am being a hundred percent sincere and it'll be pretty obvious when I'm joking. This change already had positive effect on Medbay, and podcloning is honestly currently still too easy to do and only gated by the fact botany is likely second only to Atmospherics in roles people don't know how to play.Critawakets wrote:Sheodir i cant tell if you are serious or not. Please specify every time you post.
Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?Sheodir wrote: Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.
Yes, that is precisdely the point I'm making.BadSS13Player wrote:Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) is to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?Sheodir wrote: Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.
Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.Arathian wrote:So, I played a few games with removed cloning last night on Terry (Dynamic):
1: Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.Arathian wrote:What changes I would like without reverting:
1) Re-attach head surgery.
2) A medicine that fixes overall organ decay on only corpses and essentially resets the timer to 0 so doctors don't have to spend 30m fixing each individual organ from a single person.
3) A better indicator that someone is missing organs after an organ spill. A visual indicator (like a burst out stomach) and an inspection indicator with bold red letter (This person's chest is burst open and all his organs have spilled!)
4) Probably empty cloning should stay in. I know it's against the spirit of the PR but there is no reason it shouldn't stay. Getting enough humanized monkeys to serve highpop for medbay is basically impossible, even when they raid genetics (in sci now) and virology.
Manuel has been doing fine too. Gotta say I doubt the whole "EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WHO KNOW THEIR JOBS" if they don't know prosthetic limb surgery can attach any and all limbs, head included, in their organic form. Pretty baseline stuff, and just shows how much "MDs" usually could get away with not knowing the job at all.skoglol wrote:snipArathian wrote:snip
Event hall has way less antags, has mostly newbies who don't know how to be destructive and it has an increased chance of extended. Of course "no cloning" does better on the server where it's not as likely you will be mass murdered. That isn't a surprise. But the change affects all servers, including terry. We didn't have those problems before.skoglol wrote:Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.
I actually didn't know this was a thing. Fair enough then.skoglol wrote:Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.
This simply means no one will fix decayed corpses. Staying perma-dead cause someone hid you in the closet long enough is bad.skoglol wrote: Exists in strange reagent. Likely to get nerfed though, as organs should be fixed through surgery or replaced. You can print the important cybernetics roundstart now. Use stasis beds or formaldehyde while working to prevent further decay.
Then put a machine to humanize monkeys in medbay. Right now, you can't humanize monkeys in the medbay, only in sci.skoglol wrote:Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.
Doublepost because, holy shit, this is the most retarded counter-argument.Sheodir wrote:Manuel has been doing fine too.
Of course your experience will suck more at first, because again, a big part of this change is making MDs actually LEARN THEIR JOB. The fact some got away with not knowing basic shit like limb reattachment shows the standards have truly been that low for this long. 90% of MDs knew how to: clone, apply patches and heal items, cryo and maybe MAYBE checked out the surgery page obsessively when someone needed to get a mechanical limb done in.Arathian wrote:snippety snap
That was more of a "hey most places this has been fine", and Event Hall (where players can get pretty wild despite being new) and Manuel (where things can STILL get pretty lethal and often despite the MRP) have indeed been fine. Terry isn't exactly shitterland 3000 either so I dunno where that impression came from. The point there is that if people can learn in one server, they can learn in others. The immediate experience might have been more negative but it just shows a well trained MD team can learn how to handle this shit.Arathian wrote:snippen 2 bad argument boogaloo
It's not split so far and what affects manuel also affects terry.And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease
Very simple.Arathian wrote:snop
And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.And with cloning there, it is.
It... really isn't. There's this illusion the game is in any way finely balanced. The truth is if you put in a feature it will go through almost 100% of the time. Podcloning wasn't an indepth decision process where we measured if it should be in the game or not, it was a "huh I guess this will be fun" and ta-da it goes through. The game's combat system wasn't balanced around this, it was you people on Terry that somehow let all of sec get killed by a janitor.Arathian wrote:And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.And with cloning there, it is.
The paranoia is part of the game, and a good part of the game at that. Keeping a one tile distance from people, not letting them get close unawares, all part of the gameadamkad1 wrote:Important thing is, people wanna play the game, they dont wanna stare at the game while being dead till it restarts. The less ways to fix someone from death there will be, the more paranoid people will be, they will attempt to stay away from other people, or react aggresively and beat people up for approaching them. And that sucks.
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