CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

[Sheodir]

Bottom post of the previous page:

snip

Please respond with your thoughts on my feedback on the last post of the third page. Curious what you think of them.

[deedubya]

Oranges acts the way he does because even if he takes the high road - being patient and explaining reasoning for changes to people - 95% of them will still call him a retard and demand shit be done their way instead. Why even attempt to reason with people that won't be swayed regardless of what you say?

He also winds up having to take the heat for changes that he isn't necessarily responsible for, and is expected to be able to answer on their behalf...although there's less sympathy for that one because that just comes with the territory of being the head of a project. If you're calling the shots, you have to take the flak for the decisions that get made under your watch.

[Sheodir]

Oranges acts the way he does because even if he takes the high road - being patient and explaining reasoning for changes to people - 95% of them will still call him a retard and demand shit be done their way instead. Why even attempt to reason with people that won't be swayed regardless of what you say?

He also winds up having to take the heat for changes that he isn't necessarily responsible for, and is expected to be able to answer on their behalf...although there's less sympathy for that one because that just comes with the territory of being the head of a project. If you're calling the shots, you have to take the flak for the decisions that get made under your watch.

My main frustration at the moment is that as per the last post of page three I'm trying to actually talk about the cloning removal feedback and instead most of this thread is either oranges and others going "lol this good y mad" and people who don't like oranges walling huge complaints about him. Can we please just continue discussing the PR? The guy who pushed it did try to actually talk about it but has been radio silence still.

This is called the "CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK" thread, not the "Oranges Feedback" thread.

[Super Aggro Crag]

i disagree.

[Sheodir]

i disagree.

why

[deedubya]

Since it is likely to be an issue, replica pod availability has been reduced along the lines of what I have discussed. They are no longer roundstart in the botany seed vendors and the cargo crate now has 1 pack instead of 3. Leaves it available for now, but requiring you to buy the starter seeds (and grow more) or mutate some cabbages. These are already low seed yield ranging from 1-2 seeds per generation depending on yield, so should be fine as they require effort™.

this is the exact opposite of what people were trying to get

if cloning is getting the axe, alternative round reentry methods need to be more common, not more restricted

[Cobby]

If you remove X and bump Y up to the point X may has well not been removed, what's the point of removing X?

[Super Aggro Crag]

If your logic behind removing "x" was that it was boring and non-engaging and then cripple Y, which requires more faffery and flummery, then you're just being a poop head.

[deedubya]

If you remove X and bump Y up to the point X may has well not been removed, what's the point of removing X?

Because Y isn't equivalent to X, obviously. Pod revival is a more lengthy process, doesn't work on husked corpses, and has the downside of forcing you into a podperson. Ergo, consequence for death, and not a piss easy revival. If anything, we should be encouraging methods like this, not trying to discourage revival in general.

[skoglol]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

[PKPenguin321]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

[Super Aggro Crag]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

BECAUSE

MY TARGET

GOT CLONED

AND I REDTEXTED

YOU FUCKER

[oranges]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

<snip>

If you're not adding much to the conversation, please post in NTR hut instead

[Timonk]

Don't expect to get revived with less than 1 doc on the shift because nobody cares enough to do Sr and synthflesh to revive you

[Lazengann]

yes if there is less than one doctor you may have trouble finding a doctor

[Kendrickorium]

The only thing I see this doing is giving roboticists more brains for borging

[adamkad1]

So, being someone who played on baystation, im not really opposed to cloning removal, but the big difference is that bay does not have shitchems (bay's chems however, do not repair things instantly, heck, they are pretty slow, meaning you have to stick around in medbay, or somewhere else when healing, which i think is good. Didnt someone suggest porting baymed? Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

[Sheodir]

So, being someone who played on baystation, im not really opposed to cloning removal, but the big difference is that bay does not have shitchems (bay's chems however, do not repair things instantly, heck, they are pretty slow, meaning you have to stick around in medbay, or somewhere else when healing, which i think is good. Didnt someone suggest porting baymed? Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

Whilst I'm not fully in favor of Baymed making healing a less instantaneous process would be great. Could use all the now extra space with cloning gone for actual wards where people can heal up and even arr pee in the arr pee servers with Docs and such. Not sure what the best way to balance this is - because you'll always have quick ways to heal certain types of damage. One very old suggestion was for all damage to go from 0 to 200 as it is but anything past 100 had to be healed either slowly or through chems and was bold to signify "longterm" damage.

Something worth discussing I suppose.

[skoglol]

Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

Cybernetic organs (basic shit versions) are available roundstart, better ones by research. Organic ones can also be printed in the limb grower now (could use a rename).
Cheap dissections, well get some monkey cubes from somewhere and give them some mutadone.

[kopoba]

So only alternative to cloning now is removing humanazied monkey head and replace it with dead man one. Fast and easy just like cloning.
All other shity procedures will include fixinng ~200-400 damage of brut/burn, printing liver,lungs, heart, replacing them in victim. Maybe printing limbs and attaching them. This shit will take around 10 minutes or more. If i remember right brain also taking damage over time so i think if body lays to long you must get brain from body use mantilol on it and insert it back. +~3minutes to do surgery and get mantitol.
Imagine how many operation you must do to revive one man versus cloning.

[Sheodir]

So only alternative to cloning now is removing humanazied monkey head and replace it with dead man one. Fast and easy just like cloning.
All other shity procedures will include fixinng ~200-400 damage of brut/burn, printing liver,lungs, heart, replacing them in victim. Maybe printing limbs and attaching them. This shit will take around 10 minutes or more. If i remember right brain also taking damage over time so i think if body lays to long you must get brain from body use mantilol on it and insert it back. +~3minutes to do surgery and get mantitol.
Imagine how many operation you must do to revive one man versus cloning.

That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Humanized monkey exploit should and likely will be removed.

[kopoba]

That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Humanized monkey exploit should and likely will be removed.

Nah point is that im dead please restart
Death is not fun and waiting single doctor to process 6 dead dudes that will take one hour and average time of shift of 30-40 minutes meh

[Muncher21]

Nah point is that im dead please restart
Death is not fun and waiting single doctor to process 6 dead dudes that will take one hour and average time of shift of 30-40 minutes meh

People having this mentality is exactly why cloning was bad for the game.

Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Amen. Med-bay is actually fun to play now, and you feel like you actually matter to the station.

[NoxVS]

about half of all brain transplants I have doctors do end with me permanently dead due to their incompetence. While the ideal outcome of this is doctors working hard to fix everyone, we all know its going to often result in a pile of corpses in a competition with the braindead doctors for the award of most intelligent thing in medical.

[OFQ]

Just borg everyone (c) Malf AI

[adamkad1]

Also, organ decay is too fasta

[skoglol]

If you want organs to not decay, stasis beds or formaldehyde. There is a small amount of formaldehyde in epi pens, so stabbing a corpse prevents decay entirely.

[SkeletalElite]

My concern is that if revival takes too long revivals often won't happen at all because people will just get off the game or server hop when they die.

Especially if there's a backlog of corpses to bring back which happens sometimes.

[Sheodir]

I recommend playing Medical with the test merge in now and see how your arguments hold up on their own. There's no massive stockpile of unrevived dead bodies. I saw a legit dehusking of a guy lost in Lavaland yesterday and it was great. Organs were decayed, limbs were missing, yet they managed.

MDs will actually learn their jobs now. Much like when the Singo became the SM, the setup will force the job takers to actually care about the job they picked rather than using it as a tiding with extra perms role. MD as a job has been neglected for far too long.

[PKPenguin321]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

[Sheodir]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

The short answer is that later down the line making an actual comeback to cloning that requires way more research, time, and development is totally viable

The longform answer is kind of layered

• - The cloning code kinda was super fucking spaghet so that'd probably involve coding cloning a lot better to begin with
  - Research is a mess and rushing nodes is too easy as is, making its removal an inconvenience at best
  - having it not be there is opening up a lot of good opportunities elsewhere, both for medical and elsewhere, and having it be a researchable thing would remove most
  - seriously there's no way to balance it as an unlock that wouldn't cause in people overfamiliar with it just rushing it instead of learning medical
  - if someone can balance this comeback to cloning well and code it and put it up sure but it seems unlikely

That's the tl;dr

PS: podclone is already too easy as it is and should be way way way fucking harder honestly it's basically free if your botanist isn't braindead
and i mean way less braindead than your MD has to not be to revive you normally

[skoglol]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.
I have stated a few times already why I think time gating cloning isnt the right way to move forward, both in this thread and on github.

[deedubya]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

[SkeletalElite]

Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.
I have stated a few times already why I think time gating cloning isnt the right way to move forward, both in this thread and on github.

If pod cloning became a main stream method of revival is that really a bad thing though? Pod cloning is more effort that the cloner is and I'm not even sure pod cloning would become the goto for revival if it was.

[Sheodir]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

[Critawakets]

Sheodir i cant tell if you are serious or not. Please specify every time you post.

[Sheodir]

Sheodir i cant tell if you are serious or not. Please specify every time you post.

I'm relatively new on the forums despite being a very old login ckey on /tg/, but let this be clear and valid for everything I ever say: I am being a hundred percent sincere and it'll be pretty obvious when I'm joking. This change already had positive effect on Medbay, and podcloning is honestly currently still too easy to do and only gated by the fact botany is likely second only to Atmospherics in roles people don't know how to play.

[BadSS13Player]

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?

[Sheodir]

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) is to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?

Yes, that is precisdely the point I'm making.

[Arathian]

So, I played a few games with removed cloning last night on Terry (Dynamic):

If someone beheads you, I have never, ever seen someone get fixed from that. Same with organ spill. Doctors will try to patch you up and resurrect you with missing organs and simply ignore your head if you are beheaded. Frankly, the only way to fix the head thing that I can think of is shoving it inside a humanized monkey. Can you even re-attach the head somehow?

If someone is left dead for a prolonged period of time and organ decay kicks in, he might as well have been dusted. Organ decay completely fucks you up and it takes so long and so much effort to fix that I have never seen someone try so far to do it.

Overall, playing with completely removed cloning has felt bad so far in practice. Keep in mind that this has been on Terry where most people are fairly advanced mechanically and know their roles usually.

What changes I would like without reverting:

1) Re-attach head surgery.

2) A medicine that fixes overall organ decay on only corpses and essentially resets the timer to 0 so doctors don't have to spend 30m fixing each individual organ from a single person.

3) A better indicator that someone is missing organs after an organ spill. A visual indicator (like a burst out stomach) and an inspection indicator with bold red letter (This person's chest is burst open and all his organs have spilled!)

4) Probably empty cloning should stay in. I know it's against the spirit of the PR but there is no reason it shouldn't stay. Getting enough humanized monkeys to serve highpop for medbay is basically impossible, even when they raid genetics (in sci now) and virology.

In my opinion though:

I think the change is going too far. I still believe cloning should stay in as a tech instead of round-start. However, that opinion might change over time.

[skoglol]

So, I played a few games with removed cloning last night on Terry (Dynamic):

Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.

What changes I would like without reverting:

1) Re-attach head surgery.

2) A medicine that fixes overall organ decay on only corpses and essentially resets the timer to 0 so doctors don't have to spend 30m fixing each individual organ from a single person.

3) A better indicator that someone is missing organs after an organ spill. A visual indicator (like a burst out stomach) and an inspection indicator with bold red letter (This person's chest is burst open and all his organs have spilled!)

4) Probably empty cloning should stay in. I know it's against the spirit of the PR but there is no reason it shouldn't stay. Getting enough humanized monkeys to serve highpop for medbay is basically impossible, even when they raid genetics (in sci now) and virology.

1: Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.

2: Exists in strange reagent. Likely to get nerfed though, as organs should be fixed through surgery or replaced. You can print the important cybernetics roundstart now. Use stasis beds or formaldehyde while working to prevent further decay.

3: Agreed, I am working on putting that into the health scanners.

4: Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.

[Sheodir]

snip

snip

Manuel has been doing fine too. Gotta say I doubt the whole "EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WHO KNOW THEIR JOBS" if they don't know prosthetic limb surgery can attach any and all limbs, head included, in their organic form. Pretty baseline stuff, and just shows how much "MDs" usually could get away with not knowing the job at all.

Only valid complaint was the organ bursting which yeah needs a better signal for it.

Honestly I think balancing monkeys is a bit of a fool's errand anyway because I see this as the first step in reworking or retooling Genetics entirely. It is by far the most neglected department and is currently in a weird void where its benefits aren't that good, its flaws aren't that good, and its "gameplay loop" makes Virology look like Ikaruga with how boring and mindless it is.

[Arathian]

Event hall has been doing pretty well with it, this says more about the player mentality on terry tbh.

Event hall has way less antags, has mostly newbies who don't know how to be destructive and it has an increased chance of extended. Of course "no cloning" does better on the server where it's not as likely you will be mass murdered. That isn't a surprise. But the change affects all servers, including terry. We didn't have those problems before.

Exists. Its the same as other limbs, four step prosthetic replacement surgery.

I actually didn't know this was a thing. Fair enough then.

Exists in strange reagent. Likely to get nerfed though, as organs should be fixed through surgery or replaced. You can print the important cybernetics roundstart now. Use stasis beds or formaldehyde while working to prevent further decay.

This simply means no one will fix decayed corpses. Staying perma-dead cause someone hid you in the closet long enough is bad.

Monkey cubes can be ordered from cargo or made in xenobio and botany. Monkeys are not a rare resource at all, but aren't strictly necessary either. There are some edge cases where a brain transplant might be easier.

Then put a machine to humanize monkeys in medbay. Right now, you can't humanize monkeys in the medbay, only in sci.

My opinion is the same as above. Playing yesterday felt far worse than usual. If you think that will change over time, sure, but I am telling you like it is.

[Arathian]

Manuel has been doing fine too.

Doublepost because, holy shit, this is the most retarded counter-argument.

Of course it's fine on servers where you are not allowed to tide or escalate and it's 30% or so extended and rounds last for 4 hours. How is that a counter-argument to the fact that, in most servers where rounds like 45m-1h and a lot of death happens, revivals of more messed up corpses simply don't happen?

I know manuel is the new cool thing, but normal servers exist too and they should be kept in mind when balancing shit.

[Sheodir]

snippety snap

Of course your experience will suck more at first, because again, a big part of this change is making MDs actually LEARN THEIR JOB. The fact some got away with not knowing basic shit like limb reattachment shows the standards have truly been that low for this long. 90% of MDs knew how to: clone, apply patches and heal items, cryo and maybe MAYBE checked out the surgery page obsessively when someone needed to get a mechanical limb done in.

That's not enough. Organ decay isn't even that hard to fix, it just requires them to learn the surgery. Reviving someone requires an actual brain now and it's pretty great.

EDIT SO NO DOUBLEPOST:

snippen 2 bad argument boogaloo

That was more of a "hey most places this has been fine", and Event Hall (where players can get pretty wild despite being new) and Manuel (where things can STILL get pretty lethal and often despite the MRP) have indeed been fine. Terry isn't exactly shitterland 3000 either so I dunno where that impression came from. The point there is that if people can learn in one server, they can learn in others. The immediate experience might have been more negative but it just shows a well trained MD team can learn how to handle this shit.

And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease. God knows I'm done with CRAB-17 in MRP.

[Arathian]

So how do you fix when a traitor just murdered 2/3rds of sec and all of engi and we have a delam incoming and also there are reports of lings in maint fast enough?

Because that was literally the scenario last night. Previously, it was balanced by at least chucking a few corpses in cloning and surgery reviving a few of the less messed up ones. Now you can't do that.

You can't say "it's fine people will adapt people will learn their jobs yada yada" and not explain how it's balanced in actual higher speed servers.

Also, I am not an MD. I didn't know about the head surgery thing because of that. But even with it, you still need to grab a corpse, find the head, re-attach it, fix the organs and then revive it. For each corpse. When we had a nightmare yesterday that removed all organs and beheaded people, that is impossible.

And hey, worst case scenario, we split a LRP and MRP codease

It's not split so far and what affects manuel also affects terry.

[Sheodir]

snop

Very simple.

The steps to fix this are there. The limb grower, the surgery room, the relative speed with which you can chem and surgery people back up if you're a decent MD - I'd say a full revival takes a minute half if you have everything prepared, from organless head detached lad to full rez - sure, it'll be difficult, but that's the thing.

If you allow a janitor to murder all of sec and several other people and then somehow also allow this person to debrain AND deorgan almost every corpse they come across, it shouldn't be an easy process to heal them. And with cloning there, it is. If the round went this far, then cloning is the least of your problems. The shuttle would've been called regardless. If we assume this masterful antagonist nobody can catch is as strong and fast in a non reactive station as you describe, consider they maybe deserve the win?

[Arathian]

And with cloning there, it is.

And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.

[Sheodir]

And with cloning there, it is.

And the game is balanced around that in LRP servers, hence why it feels bad.

It... really isn't. There's this illusion the game is in any way finely balanced. The truth is if you put in a feature it will go through almost 100% of the time. Podcloning wasn't an indepth decision process where we measured if it should be in the game or not, it was a "huh I guess this will be fun" and ta-da it goes through. The game's combat system wasn't balanced around this, it was you people on Terry that somehow let all of sec get killed by a janitor.

And second, even if it was, we can now rebalance the game around cloning being missing, LRP or otherwise.

[adamkad1]

Important thing is, people wanna play the game, they dont wanna stare at the game while being dead till it restarts. The less ways to fix someone from death there will be, the more paranoid people will be, they will attempt to stay away from other people, or react aggresively and beat people up for approaching them. And that sucks.

[Sheodir]

Important thing is, people wanna play the game, they dont wanna stare at the game while being dead till it restarts. The less ways to fix someone from death there will be, the more paranoid people will be, they will attempt to stay away from other people, or react aggresively and beat people up for approaching them. And that sucks.

The paranoia is part of the game, and a good part of the game at that. Keeping a one tile distance from people, not letting them get close unawares, all part of the game

Dying shouldn't be fun (by itself anyway)
Dying should kill you