Borg head revs converting people

[CrazyClown12]

Are Borg head revs allowed to convert people? I've seen admins rule that they are allowed to convert but can't assist in the murder of heads. I would have thought conversion (and pursuing rev goals in any way) is a direct violation of law 1 as you are being directly complicit in the murder of humans.

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

[zxaber]

I know you say "no code solutions please" but that sounds entirely like unintended behavior.

Anyway, technically revs can win without spilling a single drop of blood by simply exporting the heads of staff to Lavaland, so it's not like an argument couldn't be made that the borg is hoping they'll win with no human harm. How believable the argument actually is would be another story.

On the other hand, flashing people is like the only real method borgs have to instantly break up a fight, and denying a borg the ability to use that tool just because they were a head-rev beforehand seems like a likewise iffy decision.

[crashmatusow]

Not to come across as peanuts, but it seems like borging is basically being invalidated as a form of punishment since antags seem to just ignore it and keep playing their objectives.

[Arianya]

Yeah, borgs probbably shouuldn't be converting with their flashes, codewise.

Regardless, I wouldn't see an issue with this so long as the borg was otherwise following its laws - that means obeying law 2 orders (including "Don't flash people"), and preventing human harm even if it's a head being harmed. If they were doing things like inciting other revs to harm people then I would view that as a breach of their laws.

[deedubya]

Seems like a law 1 violation. Flashing causes conversion to revolutionary status. You know that for a revolutionary victory, all heads must be killed or exiled. All heads must be human, there can be no non-human heads. Thus, by converting people into revolutionaries, you are indirectly causing human harm.

The only potential upside I can see here is using your position as a "revhead" to order the revs to exile instead of murder, but I don't even know if revs are bound by policy to obey revheads. I believe they only need to follow the goals of the revolution itself.

Also, despite you saying "no code solutions", I'm pretty sure this is something that needs to be resolved with code. The act of borging should clear your antag status, but still allow for later conversion.

[crashmatusow]

This is already policy( it’s how borging as alternate to execution was supposed to work) but rule 4 is treated as an excuse to do whatever the fuck you want if you’re antag (outside of metacomm/ ick ock)

[Screemonster]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

[Cobby]

If antags can just convert while borged you're going to just be killed instead so pick your poison tbh.

[deedubya]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

[Sandshark808]

I thought you were supposed to be totally blanked when you got borged, since it counts as being killed for antag objectives. This is definitely not intended behavior.

[crashmatusow]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

I will now meta the game mode ruin the heads’ round because antags exist.

edit: isn’t it funny how willing sillycons are willing to screw over nonantags who are restricted in their retaliation?

[zxaber]

I thought you were supposed to be totally blanked when you got borged, since it counts as being killed for antag objectives. This is definitely not intended behavior.

If borged via MMI, you keep memories and also get to keep antag status. If as a traitor, you get borged and then later the laws are fucked with or you get purged, you're allowed to go be an antag borg (though I believe you're supposed to follow your AI's commands still, and even if not, your AI could lock you down if you're killing or whatever). If you take a posi, then yes, you're a new entity and lose all memories.

[SkeletalElite]

If Im not mistaken this bug doesn't occur when a head rev is borged, it occurs when (especially on dynamic) a person round start decided to get borged. The game had already decided to make that person a head rev after a certain delay, but because that person got borged round start it didn't make them the head rev until after they were a borg.

[Screemonster]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

I will now meta the game mode ruin the heads’ round because antags exist.

edit: isn’t it funny how willing sillycons are willing to screw over nonantags who are restricted in their retaliation?

oh piss off, silicons aren't and never have been on the crew's "side", they follow their laws

do you get mad when the silicons stop you killing human traitors too

[CPTANT]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

I will now meta the game mode ruin the heads’ round because antags exist.

edit: isn’t it funny how willing sillycons are willing to screw over nonantags who are restricted in their retaliation?

oh piss off, silicons aren't and never have been on the crew's "side", they follow their laws

do you get mad when the silicons stop you killing human traitors too

Well you would be actually surprised how prevalent that view is and how much preferential treatment people want to give nonantags over antags under asimov.

As was shown multiple times in the thread I posted: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=23946

[Anonmare]

This is clearly an oversight and not intended behaviour and I expect it will be fixed eventually.

No need to make policy to legitimise a bug

[skoglol]

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

It's a bug though. Why are you posting bugs in policy discussion and not on the issue tracker?

What happens is the roundstart revs rule in dynamic picks its revheads roundstart, but has a 7 minute delay. If one of them gets borged before the mode starts it makes the borg a proper revhead that can use flash to convert. It will also not pick new heads for suicides, or offstation crew. We had a round where one revhead killed themselves, and the other two were miners. So when revs started, it was an instant loss.

[crashmatusow]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

I will now meta the game mode ruin the heads’ round because antags exist.

edit: isn’t it funny how willing sillycons are willing to screw over nonantags who are restricted in their retaliation?

oh piss off, silicons aren't and never have been on the crew's "side", they follow their laws

do you get mad when the silicons stop you killing human traitors too

A lot of people seem to love the idea of forcing a crew loss as borgs. Could it be because it’s easier to fuck over the heads than the rev heads? Nobody ever suggests exiling or lockering the rev heads for some reason, even though they are the ones inciting harm.

Just admit you’re antag main bro.

[Anonmare]

Now I'm picturing a human revolutionary being like "There are revolutionaries on board, exile all heads of staff to the mining outpost to prevent human harm"

Honestly, I'd probably do that as an AI. Having people(and AI players) be creative with law interpretation is good shit.

I will now meta the game mode ruin the heads’ round because antags exist.

edit: isn’t it funny how willing sillycons are willing to screw over nonantags who are restricted in their retaliation?

oh piss off, silicons aren't and never have been on the crew's "side", they follow their laws

do you get mad when the silicons stop you killing human traitors too

A lot of people seem to love the idea of forcing a crew loss as borgs. Could it be because it’s easier to fuck over the heads than the rev heads? Nobody ever suggests exiling or lockering the rev heads for some reason, even though they are the ones inciting harm.

Just admit you’re antag main bro.

I think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that headrev identities are typically unknown 90% of the time and arguing in bad faith

[crashmatusow]

> metagaming revs (and fucking over heads of staff too)
But
*i’m* the one arguing in bad faith

Wew lads. Just admit it’s because you need to roll antag as fast as possible

[Anonmare]

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with this policy thread. Either make one of your own to discuss it or quit stirring the shit pot to get a rise out of people

[Screemonster]

> metagaming revs (and fucking over heads of staff too)
But
*i’m* the one arguing in bad faith

Wew lads. Just admit it’s because you need to roll antag as fast as possible

lmao what, like anonmare said the silicons don't know who the headrevs are and they DO know who the heads of staff are, and the heads of staff are always human, so minimising harm by shuffling the heads of staff off the station during a confirmed revolution is absolutely consistent with their laws, it's nothing to do with "forcing a crew loss" because silicons don't give a shit whether "the crew" wins or loses unless they're on crewsimov

also fucking l m a o at "antag main"

[Shaps-cloud]

That's really funny and I'm amazed that I've never seen this happen in game

[PKPenguin321]

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

You're allowed to discuss code solutions here.
That said, either borg revheads should be properly given an antag law or be removed. I will personally consider them antags and law exempt until one of these things happen or a headmin rules otherwise.

[CrazyClown12]

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

It's a bug though. Why are you posting bugs in policy discussion and not on the issue tracker?

What happens is the roundstart revs rule in dynamic picks its revheads roundstart, but has a 7 minute delay. If one of them gets borged before the mode starts it makes the borg a proper revhead that can use flash to convert. It will also not pick new heads for suicides, or offstation crew. We had a round where one revhead killed themselves, and the other two were miners. So when revs started, it was an instant loss.

It was posted as an issue on github 25 days ago, meanwhile it's a regular occurrence on Terry yet doesn't really seem to be covered properly under existing policy. The fact that it may not be intended behaviour doesn't change the fact that head revs play a massively important part in rounds involving revs and as such it's important we define exactly what they are allowed to do.

Also I said 'No code solutions please' ironically. This could be changed via code, but 25 days is a long time, especially with how common Revs are on Terry and as such I feel it is important to define the rules of the game as it stands, not as we would like it to be in an ideal world.

[zxaber]

That said, either borg revheads should be properly given an antag law or be removed. I will personally consider them antags and law exempt until one of these things happen or a headmin rules otherwise.

Borged antags in other situations (borged traitor, or cultist, or nuke op somehow) are not law exempt. Just because they're antag doesn't mean they can murderbone on Asimov. In fact, if you remember the Overthrow gamemode, AIs would get made into full antags if a team used the AI conversion item, but if someone reset their laws afterwards their hands were tied. They were an antag bound by Asimov.

Anyway, this being an issue that only occurs on Dynamic points even more to it being a bug, and I think it's kinda weird to make a policy decision around a bug.

[terranaut]

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

You're allowed to discuss code solutions here.
That said, either borg revheads should be properly given an antag law or be removed. I will personally consider them antags and law exempt until one of these things happen or a headmin rules otherwise.

Antags are not and have never been law exempt you oaf. Otherwise borging traitors would be useless.

[Sandshark808]

No code solutions please, this is a policy discussion thread.

You're allowed to discuss code solutions here.
That said, either borg revheads should be properly given an antag law or be removed. I will personally consider them antags and law exempt until one of these things happen or a headmin rules otherwise.

Antags are not and have never been law exempt you oaf. Otherwise borging traitors would be useless.

Apparently this happens on Dynamic where robots are spontaneously chosen to become revolutionaries.