Roundstart Suicide as Antagonist/Wizard

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

In recent time I've noticed a major trend of Wizard players rushing to commit suicide as fast as possible. This extends usually out of a desire to attain a "top score" for fastest suicide, or out of other desires such as a dislike of the round type.

I believe that round start suiciding as a Wizard, or any antagonist in general, is in poor form to the game and should not be something that people do. The ultimate objective of an antagonist is to drive the events of the round, but by killing themselves before the round has even had a chance to start, they rob the round of any interesting events, waste everyone's time, but they also deny other people the opportunity to take the place of that antagonist that was taken for a bad joke.

(A older Headmin ruling did technically state that round start suiciding as a important role is a bannable offence, though I think that is more in relation to Head of Staff roles, nonetheless I think it is worth mentioning.)

While Antagonists are, under the rules, allowed to do (almost) anything, I nonetheless believe that this act is in poor form and should be heavily discouraged, such as the individual losing their access to that antagonist for a short period, as it does not serve to be conductive to an interesting game.

[leibniz]

..

Mode popularity has been polled among the players. The gamemode chances are set to respect the results of that. People who just instantly end rounds they don't like are just shitting on others who prefer a variety of gamemodes.

[Malkraz]

I don't know why you keep bringing up this irrelevant popularity

[leibniz]

You'd understand if your IQ wasn't 5-10 standard deviations below my own.

[Malkraz]

You'd understand if your IQ wasn't 5-10 standard deviations below my own.

I'm denying this wit transplant.

[Grazyn]

..

Mode popularity has been polled among the players. The gamemode chances are set to respect the results of that. People who just instantly end rounds they don't like are just shitting on others who prefer a variety of gamemodes.

Instantly ending the round doesn't affect that though, the chances don't change. There was a 12.8% chance to have a wizard round. The wizard suicided. New round, again 12.8% chance to have a wizard round.

[Steelpoint]

It does have an effect in that its wasting an antag pick on someone who functionally does not want to use it and denying other people the chance to play it.

I consider wiz suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Wizard to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

[Karp]

I consider wiz suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Wizard to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

I consider player suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Crewmember on a high tech space station to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

[Steelpoint]

I actually agree that any roundstart suicide is a shit thing.

Also, antag rolling assistants spacing themselves does not end the round

[leibniz]

..

Mode popularity has been polled among the players. The gamemode chances are set to respect the results of that. People who just instantly end rounds they don't like are just shitting on others who prefer a variety of gamemodes.

Instantly ending the round doesn't affect that though, the chances don't change. There was a 12.8% chance to have a wizard round. The wizard suicided. New round, again 12.8% chance to have a wizard round.

I am not sure if you are serious most of the time, anyway..
If we say that wizard rounds ending with an instant suicide are not real wizard rounds, then if x% (x<1 or x<100%) of wizard rounds suffer from this, it would mean the actual chance to have a wizard round is x*12.8%, which is less than 12.8%
Beyond chances, the minutes/gamemode projected for a day would also fall behind, this is a lot more tangible.

In a simple example, let's say that "Badass Metagang" containing several members of the server decided they only like traitor, and instead of turning off non-traitor antags for themselves, when they roll other antags, they instantly suicide trying to end the mode sooner, this would mean that the effective chance for traitor is higher and the effective chance for other modes is lower and people actually wanting to play those antags would miss out.

[Karp]

I agree it's bad and I dislike it but i think it's insane to target one and not all of it with roundstart suicide, and I am aware that my wishes may be hugely upsetting to a majority of the server, but it is really just fotm meme like c4+bolas and effectively innocent. You aren't really losing out on much unless those 3 minutes really seem so brutal. You could always ask admins to force the next round to be a wizard round if you really want to play a wizard round.

[Grazyn]

..

Mode popularity has been polled among the players. The gamemode chances are set to respect the results of that. People who just instantly end rounds they don't like are just shitting on others who prefer a variety of gamemodes.

Instantly ending the round doesn't affect that though, the chances don't change. There was a 12.8% chance to have a wizard round. The wizard suicided. New round, again 12.8% chance to have a wizard round.

I am not sure if you are serious most of the time, anyway..
If we say that wizard rounds ending with an instant suicide are not real wizard rounds, then if x% (x<1 or x<100%) of wizard rounds suffer from this, it would mean the actual chance to have a wizard round is x*12.8%, which is less than 12.8%
Beyond chances, the minutes/gamemode projected for a day would also fall behind, this is a lot more tangible.

In a simple example, let's say that "Badass Metagang" containing several members of the server decided they only like traitor, and instead of turning off non-traitor antags for themselves, when they roll other antags, they instantly suicide trying to end the mode sooner, this would mean that the effective chance for traitor is higher and the effective chance for other modes is lower and people actually wanting to play those antags would miss out.

What I mean is that if you actually try to calculate those chances, the number is so low it disappears into the rounding error of the wizard round chance of 12.8%. You'd have to take 0.12, multiply it for the chance of selecting a specific player out of ~50 (assuming not everyone has wizard pref on), then multiply for the odds of that player being a suicide wizard (one out of 10 players? out of 20? probably even less, but you can check statbus to get the actual number). It ends up being something <0,02% chance of rolling a suicide wizard round. Again, you can just ask atlantaned for the stats to see how many wizard rounds end immediately out of all the wizard rounds in a day to see if this is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

[leibniz]

...

Fair

@atlantaned

[Steelpoint]

The main reason I am giving round start Wizard suicide the attention is due to it being the only antagonist that ends the round instantly on their death and its a major occurance. A suiciding Traitor won't end the round and there will still be plenty of other antagonists, a Nuke Op can't commit roundstart suicide since its against the rules, etc, etc.

The mere concept of someone rolling for an antagonist slot, a highly coveted role to many people, and then just killing themselves as soon as they can type in the suicide command, strikes me as utterly incomprehensible. Suicide as an assistant is one thing, but to take an antag slot and waste it in such a pathetic manner is another.

If you really, really, hate the mass murder Wizard then dress yourself up as the "Wizard Lizard" and run around blinking and magic missiling around the station causing harmless chaos, or try some other gimmick until you die. Or just do the next logical thing and don't waste a antag slot and waste everyone's time, and further drive down the chances of some people legitimately hoping for an antag pick just because some people have become jaded with one gamemode and feel they are the sole judges in deciding we should all skip the round.

An antagonist is as much a force of driving the round AND serving the round for the interest of everyone else. To toss it away creates no in game conflict nor interesting stories and is boring for all, for good or bad. Even the mass murder stories have their worth, even if some of you are too jaded to see.

[NoxVS]

I consider wiz suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Wizard to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

I consider player suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Crewmember on a high tech space station to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

Suicide in general is an OOC action. Wasn’t that what was decided with the PR that makes it impossible to bring suicided people back into the round as cyborgs? Just ban everyone who suicides. Give them a jobban for whatever role they were because if they suicide they obviously don’t want to be that role ever.

[SaveVatznick]

The mere concept of someone rolling for an antagonist slot, a highly coveted role to many people, and then just killing themselves as soon as they can type in the suicide command, strikes me as utterly incomprehensible. Suicide as an assistant is one thing, but to take an antag slot and waste it in such a pathetic manner is another.

Again, is it a "pathetic waste" if people think it's funny and get enjoyment out of it? Specifically, if someone can use their antag round to do whatever they want, and they decide that it would bring them maximum enjoyment to do "le epic suicide meme", is it a waste? Some people on the station will find it funny, the antag player obviously does - who exactly is hurt here except people who are saying "well, that's not what I would have done if I rolled wizard"?

The effect is the same as a murderbone wizard: obviously not everyone finds it fun for the wizard to spend his time taking everyone he can out of the round with no real RP except for a smattering of flavortext, but the antag makes the choice to do it. The people who wanted to be wizard will be just as asshurt if not more, since they're likely going to have to be dead and have to wait much longer than a suicide wizard.

Again, I think part of the meme is rubbing it in antag roller's faces. It sounds to me, from your posts, that you really want to spawn as a wizard and it pisses you off that people are taking their wizard rounds and "Wasting" it on a fotm fad that's kinda funny.

I'm sorry you don't get the joke and I'm sorry you're salty that people are having fun playing the game in a new and uncomfortable way you don't like. I just think you trying to get admins to bwoink people for doing suicide wizard is way overboard.

[Steelpoint]

I fail to see the fun factor in a Wizard player committing suicide. The first time it happened, I chuckled. The second time, third time, fourth time, I did not chuckle.

I believe it is a waste of a antag roll in to commit suicide because I do not believe that simply killing yourself, without any in game justification, as soon as the round starts is at all what is intended design around any antagonist.

My personal desires of playing as an antagonist are irrelevant in this, I've had many opportunities to play Wizard, although ironically all of them are via people not wanting to play as a Wizard and a ghosted player being offered the role or via admin/RNG late spawns. Furthermore if I really want to play as a Wizard at any point, I can just ask to spawn as one via antag token.

[Lazengann]

it's dumb

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Rolling for wizard then suiciding as soon as you get it is both overplayed, lame, and unfair to the people rolling for wizard because they want to play wizard

[Cobby]

Antags can't do whatever they want and this usually is restricted to OOC offenses like 4th wall breaking, metacomming, being creepy enough to weird people out OOCly, etc.

Suiciding with the intent to screw people OOCly, to me at least, is equivalent to those offenses even though the explicit action is IC.

So would I be incorrect in saying you believe antags who essentially end the round for people and force them to wait for the next one should be bannable? Since that's what the problem is here, suicide wizards force the round to end and is generally unfun. Right?

Antags who force conflict, including killing players and sabotaging crucial equipment, are part of the acceptable tools in their toolbelt. They are being antagonistic by definition (ICly) and I would never encourage people to start banning for that because it drives the progression of the round, even if they're driving it down the toilet.

Compared to the topic at hand, it's a complete 180. There is no conflict, no counter, nothing. You just spawn in, suicide, and wow now everyone has to wait another 180+ seconds because tweedle dumb thought it was funny. You aren't playing the role of the antagonist or the "wrench in the machine", you're just basically doubling the lobby time.

In short, yes you would be incorrect.

[Cobby]

I consider wiz suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Wizard to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

I consider player suicide an OOC issue since there is no logical in universe reason for a Crewmember on a high tech space station to kill themselves immediately at round start and that it is being done for OOC reasons of skipping the round

Players suiciding don't immediately end the round for literally everyone else.

[BeeSting12]

I believe it is a waste of a antag roll in to commit suicide because I do not believe that simply killing yourself, without any in game justification, as soon as the round starts is at all what is intended design around any antagonist.

Why do you care? It's not your antag roll.

[Nilons]

I believe it is a waste of a antag roll in to commit suicide because I do not believe that simply killing yourself, without any in game justification, as soon as the round starts is at all what is intended design around any antagonist.

Why do you care? It's not your antag roll.

the -steel-point(lol) is that it could have been

[oranges]

I've changed my mind on this, it's not funny or cool to make people wait through the 4 minute round restart just because you think it's ironic to suicide as wiz.

If the admins won't take action directly on players who are doing this we will offer them some more mulligan config options to reduce the impact of roundstart den suicides.

[bman]

let antags do what they want, including speedruns

I've changed my mind on this, it's not funny or cool to make people wait through the 4 minute round restart just because you think it's ironic to suicide as wiz.

If the admins won't take action directly on players who are doing this we will offer them some more mulligan config options to reduce the impact of roundstart den suicides.

would u rather wait 4 minutes restart or 30 minutes until wizard arrives on the station himself

[wesoda25]

The “you get to re roll for antag” argument is shit; for obvious reasons. Its kind of funny to have suicide wizards, but once someone does it they should be job banned. In any case it’ll make me respect you more.

Regardless, suicide wiz is a thing of the past. Suicidal rev heads are all the rage.

[oranges]

let antags do what they want, including speedruns

I've changed my mind on this, it's not funny or cool to make people wait through the 4 minute round restart just because you think it's ironic to suicide as wiz.

If the admins won't take action directly on players who are doing this we will offer them some more mulligan config options to reduce the impact of roundstart den suicides.

would u rather wait 4 minutes restart or 30 minutes until wizard arrives on the station himself

I'd rather let people who enjoy playing wizard have a fucking chance instead of some cunt who thinks it's ironically funny to just extend roundstart by 4 minutes

[bman]

let antags do what they want, including speedruns

I've changed my mind on this, it's not funny or cool to make people wait through the 4 minute round restart just because you think it's ironic to suicide as wiz.

If the admins won't take action directly on players who are doing this we will offer them some more mulligan config options to reduce the impact of roundstart den suicides.

would u rather wait 4 minutes restart or 30 minutes until wizard arrives on the station himself

I'd rather let people who enjoy playing wizard have a fucking chance instead of some cunt who thinks it's ironically funny to just extend roundstart by 4 minutes

just spoderan on basil in protest of this post

[confused rock]

Yeah and it unironically made me very sad because I had something I really wanted to do whenever I got wizard
On the other hand, I saw a summon events wizard next round. I hated it immediately but went with it. I managed to dual wield pulse rifles, have a polymorph staff, and have a battlemage robe with shield charges remaining. then summon events mindswapped me into a random guy dying of oxygen loss. Every action in summon wizard is fucking meaningless.

[Malkraz]

People should only catch bans for this if their times exceed 7 seconds.

[Ispiria]

The mere concept of someone rolling for an antagonist slot, a highly coveted role to many people, and then just killing themselves as soon as they can type in the suicide command, strikes me as utterly incomprehensible. Suicide as an assistant is one thing, but to take an antag slot and waste it in such a pathetic manner is another.

Again, is it a "pathetic waste" if people think it's funny and get enjoyment out of it? Specifically, if someone can use their antag round to do whatever they want, and they decide that it would bring them maximum enjoyment to do "le epic suicide meme", is it a waste? Some people on the station will find it funny, the antag player obviously does - who exactly is hurt here except people who are saying "well, that's not what I would have done if I rolled wizard"?

The effect is the same as a murderbone wizard: obviously not everyone finds it fun for the wizard to spend his time taking everyone he can out of the round with no real RP except for a smattering of flavortext, but the antag makes the choice to do it. The people who wanted to be wizard will be just as asshurt if not more, since they're likely going to have to be dead and have to wait much longer than a suicide wizard.

Again, I think part of the meme is rubbing it in antag roller's faces. It sounds to me, from your posts, that you really want to spawn as a wizard and it pisses you off that people are taking their wizard rounds and "Wasting" it on a fotm fad that's kinda funny.

I'm sorry you don't get the joke and I'm sorry you're salty that people are having fun playing the game in a new and uncomfortable way you don't like. I just think you trying to get admins to bwoink people for doing suicide wizard is way overboard.

literally this

it's their antag roll they can do what they want with it that's a slippery slope we should never ever EVER start sliding down

[Steelpoint]

We already have some rules in place that antagonists cannot break. My argument is that round start suicide as a antag is intended as an OOC act and thus should be something to be discouraged.

[bman]

Rolling for wizard then suiciding as soon as you get it is both overplayed, lame, and unfair to the people rolling for wizard because they want to play wizard

what an argument, whether or not the wizard suicides the people crying wont get to play wizard, suiciding doesnt change anything

[Steelpoint]

There is an effect in that if the person suiciding decided to not roll for Wizard and waste the slot, then the other people rolling for Wiz may have gotten picked instead.

[Nilons]

Rolling for wizard then suiciding as soon as you get it is both overplayed, lame, and unfair to the people rolling for wizard because they want to play wizard

what an argument, whether or not the wizard suicides the people crying wont get to play wizard, suiciding doesnt change anything

if they were wizard banned thats exactly what would have happened though, someone else would've gotten wizard

[Cobby]

literally this

it's their antag roll they can do what they want with it that's a slippery slope we should never ever EVER start sliding down

Would you be okay with an antag using 100% IC interactions to crash the server in a way that just immediately starts the round over again? If not, why?

Could you then explain how enforcing that would not be a slippery slope but suiciding is?

[bman]

Rolling for wizard then suiciding as soon as you get it is both overplayed, lame, and unfair to the people rolling for wizard because they want to play wizard

what an argument, whether or not the wizard suicides the people crying wont get to play wizard, suiciding doesnt change anything

if they were wizard banned thats exactly what would have happened though, someone else would've gotten wizard

yeah i guess that's true, even though it still means banning someone for using an antag roll in a way you dont approve of

[Nilons]

Rolling for wizard then suiciding as soon as you get it is both overplayed, lame, and unfair to the people rolling for wizard because they want to play wizard

what an argument, whether or not the wizard suicides the people crying wont get to play wizard, suiciding doesnt change anything

if they were wizard banned thats exactly what would have happened though, someone else would've gotten wizard

yeah i guess that's true, even though it still means banning someone for using an antag roll in a way you dont approve of

no no no, the problem is theyre not using the antag roll theyre just restarting the round

[somerandomguy]

literally this

it's their antag roll they can do what they want with it that's a slippery slope we should never ever EVER start sliding down

Would you be okay with an antag using 100% IC interactions to crash the server in a way that just immediately starts the round over again? If not, why?

Could you then explain how enforcing that would not be a slippery slope but suiciding is?

Bugs are OOC
If they found a way to crash the server without abusing a bug, fine, whatever feature they used was made for a reason

[Cobby]

How are bugs ooc but suiciding with intent to end the round not when both are otherwise at your disposal in the IC realm at that current time?

[somerandomguy]

How are bugs ooc but suiciding with intent to end the round not when both are otherwise at your disposal in the IC realm at that current time?

See: if no bugs are involved it's fine
Using a bug requires OOC knowledge, offing oneself does not
It's also entirely possible for the wizard federation to have someone who's secretly suicidal in it

[Ayy Lemoh]

How are bugs ooc but suiciding with intent to end the round not when both are otherwise at your disposal in the IC realm at that current time?

See: if no bugs are involved it's fine
Using a bug requires OOC knowledge, offing oneself does not
It's also entirely possible for the wizard federation to have someone who's secretly suicidal in it

You could argue the round would never happen if they just suicide in wiz ship and their name was 'suicide' though. That's not a good roleplay defense.

Now if their name is SUICIDE BY COP and teleports to the armory before getting killed then I may see a point don't steal this shitty gimmick i did months ago, you fuckers. Another example would be if you decided to make people uncomfortable, by talking about suicide plus specifics and etc, while not actually suiciding until later. No one would RP this in /tg/station, though.

[subject217]

If this is going to be dealt with administratively, it should be done by changing Rule 4. The simplest way to do it would be to add it to one of the list of exceptions that solo antagonists are not allowed to do.

[Dax Dupont]

It seems the headmins have made a ruling looking at the relevant ban appeal thread

[Nervere]

Killing yourself roundstart as wizard is quite the annoying trend that has popped up recently. It forces everyone to wait another 5 minutes to even begin to play the game, and is a waste of a rare antagonist roll.
This is not a rule 4 issue, where antagonists are exempt from "don't be a dick." Rule 4 is a protection for IC actions. Killing yourself roundstart as a wizard is explicitly OOC, because it has no other effect other than ending the round for everyone and restarting the server. For this reason, it's still something that may be covered under rule 1. If you do not want to play as a wizard, simply turn it off in your preferences, or ask admins to offer you up to ghosts. Any instances of wizards killing themselves roundstart will be met with a permanent jobban from the role. For more details regarding the ban that sparked this policy discussion, see this thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=20090.

[Nervere]

I'll also further clarify that we headmins have no intentions of restricting antagonist freedoms. This policy change is simply meant to put an end to a trend of poor behavior that has become a trend during wizard rounds. It is not a paradigm shift to, for example, begin to restrict antagonist murderboning, or something similar. In terms of antagonist freedoms, this ruling is a special case.