Unanesthetized Surgery Should Have Lower Success Chance

[Farquaar]

At the moment there isn't really any tangible benefit found in subjecting one's self to anesthetic during surgery (aside from avoiding a temporary negative moodlet from feeling pain). It leaves you vulnerable to murder, theft, or even just being forgotten should the surgeon have to flee the scene in an emergency. Even though it makes perfect RP sense for a doctor to anesthetize patients for surgery, some players still refuse it because they don't want any surprises.

For the reasons above, (as well as !!FUN!!), patients who are undergoing surgery while awake should thrash, scream and howl just like anybody would in real life, resulting in a much lower chance of successful action. A ghetto alternative would be to get your patient absolutely boozed up and hammered, or to use another sleeping agents, like chloral hydrate.

This isn't the rework the medical system desperately needs, but at the very least it should fix a small but obvious problem with the surgery system.

[Lumbermancer]

Medical system has been solved already, there's just no one to code it.

https://pastebin.com/fDnJHuhc

[PKPenguin321]

How to ensure nobody ever goes to get surgery again: the post

[Nabski]

Remove half the steps if they are under anethesia so it's less effort for the doctor?

[XDTM]

The process of hooking up an anesthetic tank on a patient takes almost as much as a full surgery though

[Farquaar]

How to ensure nobody ever goes to get surgery again: the post

If you don't trust the doctor operating on you, why are you going to surgery in the first place? They could just as easily crit and kill you with a few well placed strikes to the head with the surgical saw before you could even stand up from the table. If someone is feeling paranoid, they should have someone sit in to watch the surgery. Why else would we have surgery observation rooms in every map? For education?

[Gun Hog]

Allow proper surgery tables have an anesthetic (or any atmos tank really ) tank attached. To use it, simply lay your patient onto the table, and apply the mask to his/her face.

[leibniz]

How to ensure nobody ever goes to get surgery again: the post

taking risks in a game about paranoia

imagine

[Lumbermancer]

The game evolved, get with times gramps.

[Farquaar]

1. Patient removes backpack
2. Patient puts tank on back and mask on face
3. Patient climbs on table and switches on internals

This takes about as long as opening up the wiki to look up the instructions for surgery. What's all the hullabaloo?

[PKPenguin321]

How to ensure nobody ever goes to get surgery again: the post

taking risks in a game about paranoia

imagine

yeah go tell the whole playerbase that i'm sure they'll suddenly want to be put asleep for an indefinite amount of time ingame

[wesoda25]

Fun > Realistic. I have an idea all guns should insta crit, any head damage should be a concussion and knock out, and bruise patches don’t make sense, let’s remove them. Also you know what? Cloning is unrealistic lets remove that too.

[somerandomguy]

How to ensure nobody ever goes to get surgery again: the post

If you don't trust the doctor operating on you, why are you going to surgery in the first place? They could just as easily crit and kill you with a few well placed strikes to the head with the surgical saw before you could even stand up from the table. If someone is feeling paranoid, they should have someone sit in to watch the surgery. Why else would we have surgery observation rooms in every map? For education?

Because you (were, before the awful rest changes) able to get up and fight them. Plus, being asleep makes you stare at an essentially blank screen for who knows how long. God forbid if they forget about you and your only way of possibly alerting someone to your presence is to spam *gasp and *deathgasp.

-person who spent 20 minutes KO'd in the morgue in a clock cult round, at least 5 of which were lying on a sigil after being converted

[Jegub]

The first scenario that springs to mind is someone getting a full set of implants, currently they can chat with the surgeon, take care of business/call people chumbises over radio rather than watching a black screen for a few minutes. If there were any ambiguities such as the handedness of tool implants they'd need to be sorted out beforehand to avoid having to bring them round again to check.

The second scenario is a queue of patients needing embryo removal, if the success chance was lowered enough to make a meaningful difference then the surgeon would be caught between trying to get each one anaesthetised quickly enough to have a chance at treating them all or chucking them on the table and hoping that their luck held.
Integrating administration into the table would help with that dilemma but in general making unconscious patients the norm sounds pretty dull for both parties involved. The best method of picking up techniques in the game is by seeing people perform them, and it would seem preferable not to take that away in this instance.
Having to remember a separate set of steps depending on the patient's state could get annoying, faster steps might work better as an incentive rather than adding forced pain reactions and failure chance to the baseline procedure.

I rationalise the standard approach by assuming that 26th century surgical tools are advanced enough to minimise perceived pain, and that the tank's there for uncooperative or excessively squeamish patients. If you wanted to encourage some sort of analgaesia for the sake of role playing or providing an extra veneer of realistic procedure then the mix could allow the patient to be able to see and communicate for the duration. You could simulate the effects of a moderate nitrous dosage for the recipient with double vision (skewium shows how much the tile plane can be messed with, could it be doubled or just flickered back and forth?) and randomly playing trippy phasing and flanging sound effects. Oh, and changing 'says' to 'squeaks'.

[D&B]

You're all forgetting there's a plethora of sleeping medicine that can be used instead of internals to control how long the patient will remain asleep.

Or maybe you could just add a medicine that slows you down greatly but reduces the pain.

Having the N2O tank isn't the only option.

[Farquaar]

yeah go tell the whole playerbase that i'm sure they'll suddenly want to be put asleep for an indefinite amount of time ingame

Even a newbie surgeon can complete any surgery in two minutes. Hardly a game ender, considering your average greyshirt typically spends five minutes in the hole minimum with no benefit to themselves afterwards, two to three minutes is perfectly reasonable in terms of time spent under anesthesia.

I've never been abandoned in surgery, but if it's such a prevalent concern, why not just ask someone to check up on you? Won't your coworkers or department head wonder where you've gone? Or did you not say a word to them all round? If we're so concerned about surgeons abandoning their patients why not just make anesthetic tanks smaller so that they run out after five minutes?

Fun > Realistic. I have an idea all guns should insta crit, any head damage should be a concussion and knock out, and bruise patches don’t make sense, let’s remove them. Also you know what? Cloning is unrealistic lets remove that too.

Nobody here is arguing that realistic = better. We're arguing that it would be more fun if there was a tangible benefit to undergoing surgery with anesthesia. At the moment anesthesia is a useless feature, when it could add an interesting layer to the medical procedure itself as well as potential intrigue.

Because you (were, before the awful rest changes) able to get up and fight them. Plus, being asleep makes you stare at an essentially blank screen for who knows how long. God forbid if they forget about you and your only way of possibly alerting someone to your presence is to spam *gasp and *deathgasp.

Why are you staring at a broken screen? Do you also not open another tab during a ten minute jail sentence?

You're all forgetting there's a plethora of sleeping medicine that can be used instead of internals to control how long the patient will remain asleep.
Or maybe you could just add a medicine that slows you down greatly but reduces the pain.

Having the N2O tank isn't the only option.

This man gets it. There are plenty of solutions besides "remove anesthetic".

[wesoda25]

If you think its THAT necessary, limit surgeries requiring sleep to complex, high risk ones. Ie brain surgery, NOT extracting organs and the like (trying to fight zombies or xenoes is hard enough as md without having to worry about anesthesia). Maybe advanced surgeries too. And alien surgery tools should require no sleep for any surgery.

[oranges]

The game evolved, get with times gramps.

hey wait a minute

[D&B]

No, don't make it easier just because it will need anesthetic. The game and players will adjust to this and conform to using surgery behind barricaded places in moments of combat, have people actually use the surgery THEATER to watch out for shenanigans, or actually seek people they trust before they can become full metal plated Terminators with full augments.

There's slower servers where this is done and players adjust to the requirements and can even work around securing places even in the midst of combat or strenuous situations. Just because something now requires more safety precautions doesn't mean it won't be used (because there's high rewards behind it, anesthetic or not) or that it needs to be made easier (because then why the fuck hide the most powerful stuff behind it when it's so piss easy?).

[PKPenguin321]

yeah go tell the whole playerbase that i'm sure they'll suddenly want to be put asleep for an indefinite amount of time ingame

Even a newbie surgeon can complete any surgery in two minutes. Hardly a game ender, considering your average greyshirt typically spends five minutes in the hole minimum with no benefit to themselves afterwards, two to three minutes is perfectly reasonable in terms of time spent under anesthesia.

again, the average player doesn't care. at least with current surgery you can shoot the shit with the doc while you wait, but having to go unconscious literally just means you cant play for a handful of minutes and that's fucking boring.
if your argument is "well youre already vulnerable without anesthetic" then i STILL dont see why we need this change. what do you want them to be, even more vulnerable than before? or just vulnerable and bored?

[Bawhoppennn]

Remember when we tried to add dreams but it got shut it down because people wanted to see at the edge of your 1 tile view circle when unconscious?

[Farquaar]

again, the average player doesn't care. at least with current surgery you can shoot the shit with the doc while you wait, but having to go unconscious literally just means you cant play for a handful of minutes and that's fucking boring.
if your argument is "well youre already vulnerable without anesthetic" then i STILL dont see why we need this change. what do you want them to be, even more vulnerable than before? or just vulnerable and bored?

The reasons for this proposal have already been elaborated in the OP as well as throughout the thread.
1. It adds an extra layer of depth to medical, which is woefully boring at the present moment. Unless someone is planning to code a medical overhaul anytime soon, depth has to be added in gradual steps.

2. It makes RP sense. Even the most grizzled psychopath would not be able to sit calmly as their leg is amputated without so much as a bottle of hard liquor. Only the most obstinate powergamer would refuse to concede this point.

3. It adds a layer of intrigue to surgery. Do you trust your surgeon? Would you want another doctor to sit in on the procedure? What about a coworker from your department? Like D&B's response implied, it rewards players for interacting with their fellow station personnel while discouraging lone wolf/selfish play.


It seems that the objections are as follows:
1. There's a risk of being forgotten about if the doctor has to leave during surgery.
Response: While a rarity in and of itself, this can be fixed both IC and mechanically. Mechanically, the size of anesthetic containers could be reduced to provide only 5 minutes of anesthesia. Thus, in the event that your doctor is murdered while grabbing a limb from storage mid-surgery, you won't be out for more than a few minutes. In character, one can discuss different options for anesthesia with their doctor. Perhaps ask the more reliable doctor to do your surgery rather than the oddly named chemist who answers with one word replies?

2. Anesthetic takes too long to apply.
Response: As has been stated, anesthetic tanks don't really take long to apply at all. In an emergency situation where multiple surgeries must be completed in short succession, it makes the most sense that you would cooperate with your fellow doctors to triage your patients. If one man can complete several surgeries in the span of a couple minutes, why even bother having multiple medical doctor slots open on the server to begin with?

3. It's boring having to wait while asleep.
Response: SS13 is role playing game. Not every moment is going to be filled with heated action, or even dialogue. If you're going to be under anesthesia for two minutes, why not open up the wiki on the other half of your screen while you wait? Considering that most in-game manuals link to online resources, this is hardly an unprecedented ask. There will be always be moments like this in SS13, whether you're locked in the brig, stuck in crit, waiting for a ghostrole and yes, being anesthetized for surgery.


In short, coding this suggestion would transform what at the moment is an entirely useless feature into an opportunity to change medical for the better. I'd rather a surgery system where doctors can debate about the best anesthetic mixes than one where some clown can stand up mid-surgery, brain exposed, and run off because someone screamed about a blob over the radio. Let's add more to medical, not keep it stagnant because some people don't like the idea of being temporarily vulnerable in game.

[PKPenguin321]

In regards to your 3 reasons why it would be a good change:
1. It's literally just adding an extra step to the only system medical has that's already very step heavy. That's hardly "extra depth," or at least not enough depth to even remotely justify forcing the player undergoing surgery to have to sit bored or alt tab rather than talk to and potentially RP with the doctor
2. >realism argument
While this argument is already completely shit, you must also realize that not allowing the player to speak while having surgery done literally just lessens his ability to communicate and therefore RP
3. You literally already claimed that surgery already does this without your change when you said that surgery already leaves you vulnerable. This point isn't unique to or even new with your proposed change

Literally not a single good reason for this change so far

[Farquaar]

In regards to your 3 reasons why it would be a good change:
1. It's literally just adding an extra step to the only system medical has that's already very step heavy. That's hardly "extra depth," or at least not enough depth to even remotely justify forcing the player undergoing surgery to have to sit bored or alt tab rather than talk to and potentially RP with the doctor
2. >realism argument
While this argument is already completely shit, you must also realize that not allowing the player to speak while having surgery done literally just lessens his ability to communicate and therefore RP
3. You literally already claimed that surgery already does this without your change when you said that surgery already leaves you vulnerable. This point isn't unique to or even new with your proposed change

Literally not a single good reason for this change so far

1. Engineering is too step-heavy. Why does the supermatter need gas mixtures and cooling loops? It's unnecessary complexity. You should be able to just flip a switch and get power, yeesh.
2. Please elaborate on how decent roleplay is supposed to occur during an unanesthetized surgery aside from /me screams and /me sobs uncontrollably from the patient. Unless of course you think good roleplay is just chatting about the weather in a situation during which one is supposed to be in intense agony. For God's sake, people scream when applying styptic powder but don't scream during unanesthetized open heart surgery? It's inconsistent and ridiculous.
3. There's a difference between being choosing to be knocked out cold by a surgeon you think you trust and running around kicking and screaming with an exposed brain hanging out of your skull.

[oranges]

guys stop pointing out the jobs all suck we know, the game is a terrorist town clone with jobs bolted on

[PKPenguin321]

In regards to your 3 reasons why it would be a good change:
1. It's literally just adding an extra step to the only system medical has that's already very step heavy. That's hardly "extra depth," or at least not enough depth to even remotely justify forcing the player undergoing surgery to have to sit bored or alt tab rather than talk to and potentially RP with the doctor
2. >realism argument
While this argument is already completely shit, you must also realize that not allowing the player to speak while having surgery done literally just lessens his ability to communicate and therefore RP
3. You literally already claimed that surgery already does this without your change when you said that surgery already leaves you vulnerable. This point isn't unique to or even new with your proposed change

Literally not a single good reason for this change so far

1. Engineering is too step-heavy. Why does the supermatter need gas mixtures and cooling loops? It's unnecessary complexity. You should be able to just flip a switch and get power, yeesh.
2. Please elaborate on how decent roleplay is supposed to occur during an unanesthetized surgery aside from /me screams and /me sobs uncontrollably from the patient. Unless of course you think good roleplay is just chatting about the weather in a situation during which one is supposed to be in intense agony. For God's sake, people scream when applying styptic powder but don't scream during unanesthetized open heart surgery? It's inconsistent and ridiculous.
3. There's a difference between being choosing to be knocked out cold by a surgeon you think you trust and running around kicking and screaming with an exposed brain hanging out of your skull.

1.
that's clearly not my argument, learn to read. you're making the already most-complex medical system more complex with your only justification being "but it needs to be complex!" You're yet to give a single argument as to WHY it should be more complex.
2.
>rEaLiSm ArGuMeNt
"RP"ing as a comatose person who does not move or speak is, by this server's RP standards, not really even RP, despite being realistic. If you allow the surgeon and the person having surgery done to chat, that's closer to RP than one guy just being unconscious while the other guy silently clicks away.
3.
yeah, one of them is boring and one of them is fun.

[Farquaar]

1.
that's clearly not my argument, learn to read. you're making the already most-complex medical system more complex with your only justification being "but it needs to be complex!" You're yet to give a single argument as to WHY it should be more complex.
2.
>rEaLiSm ArGuMeNt
"RP"ing as a comatose person who does not move or speak is, by this server's RP standards, not really even RP, despite being realistic. If you allow the surgeon and the person having surgery done to chat, that's closer to RP than one guy just being unconscious while the other guy silently clicks away.
3.
yeah, one of them is boring and one of them is fun.

Others and I have already explained what this feature would add to the game several times in this thread. Rather than countering these points, all I've heard from you is "sleeping for a minute is boring" and "chatting during brain surgery is good RP". RP is more than just speaking to another player in game. Unless of course one's standards are so hopelessly low that one thinks going "how 'bout them cowboys" in the middle of an eye transplant is the best /tg/ can do. You don't need to have Baytier RP to realize that the game has to have logical consistency in order for wacky hijinks to actually be entertaining and funny. I'd rather improve the RP before and after surgery than settle for nonsensical smalltalk during a sex change.

As for number 3. One of them makes sense, the other is stupid. I'll let the audience be the judge.

Out of curiosity PK, do you think that patients should be awake and lucid in cryo? Why/why not?

guys stop pointing out the jobs all suck we know, the game is a terrorist town clone with jobs bolted on

Remove all jobs except traitor and clown

[wesoda25]

As someone who has had great surgery adventures fuck you for pushing this. For an entire week me and some in game friends fucked around with a cool surgery hijink. We had a ton of fun and it was great. If this was a thing at the time, it wouldn’t have been enjoyable in the slightest.

Also, with doing meme surgeries and the like, half the fun is the PATIENTS REACTION. AS PENGUIN SAID 50 TIMES THIS DOESN’T ADD ANY FUCKING VALUE TO MEDICAL, JUST OVERCOMPLICATES SHIT.

[PKPenguin321]

1.
that's clearly not my argument, learn to read. you're making the already most-complex medical system more complex with your only justification being "but it needs to be complex!" You're yet to give a single argument as to WHY it should be more complex.
2.
>rEaLiSm ArGuMeNt
"RP"ing as a comatose person who does not move or speak is, by this server's RP standards, not really even RP, despite being realistic. If you allow the surgeon and the person having surgery done to chat, that's closer to RP than one guy just being unconscious while the other guy silently clicks away.
3.
yeah, one of them is boring and one of them is fun.

Others and I have already explained what this feature would add to the game several times in this thread. Rather than countering these points, all I've heard from you is "sleeping for a minute is boring" and "chatting during brain surgery is good RP". RP is more than just speaking to another player in game. Unless of course one's standards are so hopelessly low that one thinks going "how 'bout them cowboys" in the middle of an eye transplant is the best /tg/ can do. You don't need to have Baytier RP to realize that the game has to have logical consistency in order for wacky hijinks to actually be entertaining and funny. I'd rather improve the RP before and after surgery than settle for nonsensical smalltalk during a sex change.

As for number 3. One of them makes sense, the other is stupid. I'll let the audience be the judge.

Out of curiosity PK, do you think that patients should be awake and lucid in cryo? Why/why not?

guys stop pointing out the jobs all suck we know, the game is a terrorist town clone with jobs bolted on

Remove all jobs except traitor and clown

so basically the entire argument for this change is "but fun < realism!" which is an incredibly stupid argument, cool

[Super Aggro Crag]

Hi

[Farquaar]

As someone who has had great surgery adventures fuck you for pushing this. For an entire week me and some in game friends fucked around with a cool surgery hijink. We had a ton of fun and it was great. If this was a thing at the time, it wouldn’t have been enjoyable in the slightest.

Also, with doing meme surgeries and the like, half the fun is the PATIENTS REACTION. AS PENGUIN SAID 50 TIMES THIS DOESN’T ADD ANY FUCKING VALUE TO MEDICAL, JUST OVERCOMPLICATES SHIT.

No need to get so tilted over a thread in the ideas forum.

Also, how does anesthetic prevent a patient from reacting to the outcome of the surgery? They have to wait until the end to see the result anyway. I once almost decapitated somebody and they didn't even realize it because that's just how the surgery system is at the moment.

so basically the entire argument for this change is "but fun < realism!" which is an incredibly stupid argument, cool

"So basically"
No. The argument is that this makes surgery both more fun and more realistic.

[wesoda25]

Its the reactions DURING the surgery. It also does have a decent amount of roleplay.

Anyways you refuse to accept the point that this is pointless, overcomplicates medbay, and isn’t fun. So just make a poll and base the viewpoint off that.

[Farquaar]

Its the reactions DURING the surgery. It also does have a decent amount of roleplay.

Anyways you refuse to accept the point that this is pointless, overcomplicates medbay, and isn’t fun. So just make a poll and base the viewpoint off that.

If I didn't believe that this would make the game more fun and interesting, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place. I stand by all of my statements, and I I'll let them speak for themselves.

Also, I created a poll because this thread's turned into a shitshow

[PKPenguin321]

so basically the entire argument for this change is "but fun < realism!" which is an incredibly stupid argument, cool

"So basically"
No. The argument is that this makes surgery both more fun and more realistic.

It does the opposite on the first point and the second point does not matter

[NoxVS]

No. The argument is that this makes surgery both more fun and more realistic.

How does it make it more fun for either of the two people involved in surgery? I get it being more realistic, but how is it more fun? Two people sit silently at their computers doing nothing. One guy is probably alt tabbed out of the game while he waits for the surgery to end so he can wake up and the other is just clicking several times. This doesn't seem fun for either of them. Normal surgery they could both talk with each other or listen to comms. How does this change improve upon that?

[ShrimpMantis]

Being concious during surgery gives you a major chance to screw up and cause damage. Being under anesthetic serverely decreases that chance, being drunk achieves the same effect but to a lesser extent. Surgical tables should hold an anesthetic tank, and all you have to do it set the patient up on internals. that should be the way to go about it.

If there is no mechanical benefit to it, why should you use it? Why should I put myself to sleep if Im infested with an alien larvae, why should I go to sleep and be completely vulnerable in that time?

[iksyp]

>it'll make surgery more fun
by adding a tedious extra step and making another interaction where alt tabbing is an objectively better alternative than playing the game
fun and innovative gameplay

[Lumbermancer]

Let's remove brig cells and just kill people. What kind of punishment is a jail time, if guy is just gonna alt tab.

[PKPenguin321]

Let's remove brig cells and just kill people. What kind of punishment is a jail time, if guy is just gonna alt tab.

When you're in a brig cell you can talk to any nearby officers/lawyers/passerby or if you have the equipment try to break out. If you're unconscious during surgery you can do... Nothing.
But yeah, those are totally the same thing

[Lumbermancer]

And how long does the surgery take? Probably not 2 to 5 minutes, probably around 30 seconds. Also I suggested something:

Make unconsciousness take player to the dreamland where he can kill nanotrasen officials, megafauna and erp to his hearts content.

[Bawhoppennn]

Make unconsciousness take player to the dreamland where he can kill nanotrasen officials, megafauna and erp to his hearts content.

As I said before, I am pretty sure we tried to make you dream when you were unconscious, but that it got shut down by people who wanted to be able to see people walking around them in their 1 tile view range.

[Farquaar]

Let's remove brig cells and just kill people. What kind of punishment is a jail time, if guy is just gonna alt tab.

Don't forget to remove cryo.

[somerandomguy]

Make unconsciousness take player to the dreamland where he can kill nanotrasen officials, megafauna and erp to his hearts content.

As I said before, I am pretty sure we tried to make you dream when you were unconscious, but that it got shut down by people who wanted to be able to see people walking around them in their 1 tile view range.

Make a button to switch between them

[WarbossLincoln]

Let's remove brig cells and just kill people. What kind of punishment is a jail time, if guy is just gonna alt tab.

When you're in a brig cell you can talk to any nearby officers/lawyers/passerby or if you have the equipment try to break out. If you're unconscious during surgery you can do... Nothing.
But yeah, those are totally the same thing

Not to mention this is why we have the gulag, and later on the teleporter to encourage its use. A shitler can't just alt tab through his sentence.

Medical system has been solved already, there's just no one to code it.

https://pastebin.com/fDnJHuhc

Someone should work on that. Goof be the hero that medical needs.

[bandit]

how about, best of both worlds, anesthesia makes surgery go faster

[DemonFiren]

has to go a lot faster then, because setting and recovering from that shit is slow

[Cobby]

How about just not have the feature lol

[Lumbermancer]

The surgery?

[Cobby]

the OP