Suicide and gameplay implications

[Supermichael777]

Alright so this seems to be controversial enough in the ongoing parade of PRs trying to alter how cloners handle suicide (which keep getting alternatives PRs that do basically the same thing only without a 50+ long comment argument). Its probably time to do a full player poll on what suicide should actually do instead on relying on a concept of how it fits into the game that may no longer reflect player wishes.

As far as i am aware there are 2.5 camps

1.A Suicide is an "I don't want to continue my round as this character" button.
The current in code theory, applied inconsistently across multiple ways of a character reentering a round.
1.B Suicide is an "I'm done for the round button".
Some of group one want people to stop suiciding to grab ghost roles.

2.A Suicide should just be a die instantly button.
What some players seem to want.
2.B And a separate DNR button for players who don't want to come back
What a subset of those players want


My position personalty is 2B due to maximizing control but some people seem to have a moral objection to tactical suicide. In a game with evil clowns and literal suicide bomb implants.

[Bluespace]

Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
Suiciding is "I don't want to play this job/character/situation right now." There have been instances where i've wanted to play a round again after suiciding, but that's often because of the gamemode being fun to play.
Suiciding either needs to make you non-cloneable even at higher tiers, or allow you to be cloned even at roundstart.
I don't think it's really a pressing issue though.

[Bluespace]

Add-on: There needs to be a specific setting that will return you to lobby if you don't get roundstart antag. Not sure how it'd work with the job selector though.

[RandomMarine]

I don't see the point in restricting people from taking ghost roles based on how they ghosted.
Uncloneable suicides is a relic of old design that I don't see the point of keeping around, but granted if you suicide for no apparent reason you shouldn't have any right to complain if your body's taken to the chef before genetics.

To break it down, I'd like the suicide verb to be the I want to die, right now, in a potentially amusing manner based on what I have on hand function.
Ghost is the I want to quit my current role and observe, and possibly take a ghost role function.
The I want to stop playing the video game button is the X in the upper right of the window.

[Yakumo_Chen]

I would argue that if you pressed the ready button you should make some effort to contribute to the game even if you didn't get antag, otherwise you are literally just antag rolling and not treating this like a role-playing game, which it is.

But then again I will suicide if the round is cult because playing against it as security is such a hopeless chore that I would rather just play a different game.

[Cobby]

Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.

[RandomMarine]

Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.

You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.

[Cobby]

Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.

You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.

They can hit themselves repeatedly then and succumb or fight back then. Don't use the instant "I am bored and don't want to play the round anymore" button.

[Dr_bee]

Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.

[JStheguy]

Because if you are killing yourself it is pretty clear you have no interest playing the round as that character, seeing as how you went and instakilled them for, at best, an amusing line of text.

[IkeTG]

Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.

I'm a bit confused, is this your opinion on what ghosting is or was it changed to where players who ghosted can't use ghost roles?

[Bombadil]

Ive suicided using autocloners to fix missing limbs.

So now i have to slowly beat myself to death? Stupid.


Much cleaner to just use the suicide verb.

[Shaps-cloud]

Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.

Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing

[Dr_bee]

Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.

Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing

There is already a message for that if they close the window or use a ghost role, plus the addition of a DNR verb would solve that problem.

[bandit]

do none of you remember the cancer that was multiverse swords and/or zombies pulling suicides who didn't want to play anymore

[Mark9013100]

Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.

No. I've seen people ghost at roundstart when they don't get antag and become a sentient virus. Ghosting needs to be fixed.

[Grazyn]

Ghosting doesn't "need to be fixed", it was never meant to lock you out of ghost roles and this is the first time I've ever read the suggestion that it should. As someone said, there are instances where you can't commit suicide (walking in a room full of n2o, pumped full of morphine, someone keeping you permastuncuffed ecc. ) and it makes no sense to punish players by locking them out of ghost roles because they didn't wish to look at a static screen for the rest of the round (or for how long it would take to resist through all the layers of shackles you've been put under)

Also the status of suicides is a policy issue, not a coding one.

[oranges]

suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.

The fact that it's irrelevant because ghosting exists is kind of ignored I suppose

at the very least the suicide methods are far funnier, you can think of ghosting as just a non flavored suicide.

[RandomMarine]

suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.

Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.

Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.

[Dr_bee]

suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.

Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.

Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.

Plus using cloning to escape sounds like a great counterplay to sec. Sec should have access to the cloning records and be given the ability to delete them in return.

[iamgoofball]

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand

[iksyp]

ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat
If people are abusing suicide and prescans to escape conversion antags that's an admin issue
The solution as I see it is to disable prescans when you suicide and add a DNR if you really don't want to rejoin the game.

[bandit]

ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat

People only use ghosting in this situation because you can't suicide when restrained/cuffed.

[Cobby]

Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?

It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.

[Bluespace]

Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?

It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.

Hey this was my idea. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[PKPenguin321]

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand

i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with

[iamgoofball]

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand

i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with

it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true

IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED

STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH

[Dr_bee]

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand

i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with

it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true

IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED

STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH

Your reasoning for it is "it is this way because it is this way" which is circular reasoning. Come up with an actual argument as to why this is a feature of suicide when a DNR verb would be perfectly fine for this.

[Selea]

Goof, if you didn't got it:
Yes, that is this way now. But entire theme about question, if we should to change it. And if we should, how to change it.

Personally, I would like to make DNR separate verb from suicide.

[Saegrimr]

Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.

[Selea]

Need to point at fact, that separate button to quit round should exist. Because sometimes I closing client ro restart it for technical reasons.

[iamgoofball]

Yeah no fuck this Im merging ghost and suicide fuck you buddy I know damn well this is all about using autoclone and suicide as getout of jail free

You dont get to be autistic.

[DemonFiren]

But you do, eh, goof?

[XDTM]

Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide possible. However, the fact that it's instant may be unbalanced.

Making the body carry the DNR status is dumb, by the way, when there are ways to bodyswitch. A DNR ghost verb is far cleaner.

[iamgoofball]

"THIS KILLS TACTICAL SUICIDE

Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide

[Wyzack]

I always liked suicide over killing yourself in other ways because a lot of the messages are pretty funny. I usually won't do it unless I am planning on taking a ghostroll or leaving, but I don't see the harm in allowing resurrection of suicides since ghosting fills the role of "im out and im fucking staying out" quite nicely at the moment

[iamgoofball]

TACTICAL
SUICIDE

[kevinz000]

TACTICAL
SUICIDE

that would be called c4 bombcoring the hopline instead of your regular oxygen tank suicide, goof.

[PKPenguin321]

TACTICAL
SUICIDE

Literally doesn't happen. You got played

Why would you EVER instantly abandon and give up all your gear to an assailant rather than at least fighting them to the death

[Wyzack]

I dont understand the asspain, it is only a bit faster than just beating yourself to death

[Grazyn]

Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.

So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist

[Wyzack]

Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat

[Dr_bee]

Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat

Yeah adding a delay would be a nice way to let people stop someone from murdering themselves without a gun.

The fact tactical suicides with an autocloner requires prepwork, and already comes with a downside of losing all of the persons gear means I think it should stay in the game, however more ways to counter it is always a good thing to add.

Like how about having all cloners on station share the same cloning records, or say the location of other cloners similar to how comm consoles work with mass recalls.

It would mean that hidden autocloning would work against lazy sec, but the moment anyone does even a little bit of detective work then the plan doesnt work anymore.

also if there is anything that should be prohibited it is being cloned after BoH bombing. If you want to pull that off, brainwash a patsy or crate a golem to do it or something.

[onleavedontatme]

Suicide is an a vaguely immersive "I am done with this character" button and a cloner upgrade that ignores that never made sense in the first place.

1A

[Rustledjimm]

Suicide is illegal so you should be brigged for doing so.


But seriously 1A.

[XDTM]

Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.

So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist

Sec not taking the opportunity to kill you? No way

[The Clowns Pocket]

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand

[iamgoofball]

Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.

Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.

[PKPenguin321]

Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.

Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.

context dependent, if you DC in the middle of a hostage situation or something after getting cuffed admins wont help you

[Saegrimr]

You know I just remembered that you guys changed cloning so it pulls the ghost in when its done instead of the ghost having to be in the body at all to be scanned.