Clockwork Cult (now off of rotation, suggestions go in this thread)

Oldman Robustin · Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:51 am

Bottom post of the previous page:

I already made the PR out of impatience.

Dead cultists can cross the servant-blocker once the portals open.

Just too many rounds watching the same dude get rez'd 5 times because crew couldn't secure the body and 3-hit-immunity-every-10-seconds marauders would fish the corpse out with minimal risk.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:47 am #366995

Both of your PRs don't actually do anything to stop the ability for marauders to rush in and grab a dead cultist and proceed to just drop them onto a vitality matrix again. I made a PR with that, along with some other changes:

Servants gain a one-minute debuff preventing vitality matrices from reviving them after they're revived by one
Vitality matrices can't be placed adjacent to each other
Brass skewers now damage cyborgs instead of letting them (hilariously) disarm entire mazes
Pressure sensors have 5 health instead of 25.

Thoughts and feedback from anyone interested is encouraged.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:32 pm

Except thats exactly what my PR enables?

Crew drags dead cultist past the servant blocker.

Marauders can't cross servant blocker.

Cultist stays dead.

One minute revive CD won't make things worse but its a negligible nerf.

SpaceInaba · Post by **SpaceInaba** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:35 pm #367474

oldman test your code bro

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:47 pm #367487

Xhuis wrote:
Cobby wrote:The eminence should be able to die considering it's a ghost role that works as both a commanding unit and a dedicated scouting unit. That or at least be sent back to reebe with a cooldown of returning to the station.

It's like all the benefits of an AI and pAI without either of their downsides. You can best bet if I spot a CC I am going to not bother deconverting because I have no idea if EPIC HARM ALARM is informing the boys. They're just going to get the boot.
AI is massively more powerful than an Eminence. It has control of every machine on the station. The Eminence is the designated leader role for the cult, and their primary focus is coordination and planning; that's why they can't understand conversations on the station and can't do anything with any objects except activate traps and issue commands.

If you're not going to bother deconverting, that makes you silly. Servants' toolkit is designed around defending fortifications, not storming existing ones. If you're in the brig behind fortified windows and walls, with officers there to back you up, a direct assault from the servants is almost guaranteed to fail unless nobody can aim. Keep in mind the areas that servants can't teleport to, and use that to your advantage by fortifying a room or two against incursion. If all else fails, the chapel itself is immune to any kind of teleportation, and provides an effective but accessible base of operations!

Okay maybe the superlative of "all" was an exaggeration but just because AI > eminence *on station* doesn't mean the eminence isn't a powerhouse that should also be invincible because lol leader! (which really makes me wish it was able to be killed even more).

Also why would I bother babysitting for deconversion when i've seen people including yourself break people out using the all seeing eye? Watching people get deconverted (or risk them getting tele'd out) while starmemes exponentially grow the cc's power or kill the guy and search for the generators doesn't seem like a silly decision at all. I would say this is also true with bloodcult but not nearly as much since they focus on individuals making it worth the process unlike cc where it's structure focused (you're fugged either way, but moreso if you sit and wait for jim bob to deconvert).

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:08 pm #367511

Make the Eminence have an obvious spooky effect when it looks at stuff on the station, like causing the lights to flicker or something equally spooky and cult like.

Basically it makes the Eminence on the station ineffective for stealth but useful for loud and also gives the people being spied on a warning that they are being spied on.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:39 am #368931

I just witnessed a cult round where they managed to surround the AI core with stargazers and then make even more stargazers around the station, as well as murdering 18 people and converting the rest on a round of about 70 people. At a certain power level or conversion ratio could ratvar just immediately summon? It was rather painful having to stand around doing nothing for the entire summoning time.

they managed at the very end to have 55 servants.

yeah, at that point the round just needs to end.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:53 pm #369046

That sounds incredibly amusing. I dunno how to implement that kind of power-check but it could probably be done.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:10 am #369441

Anonmare's top tip pro strat: Metastation's AI sat walkways can be absolutely stuffed with Stargazers. Just cut the cams and keep to the north, south and east sides and nobody will ever notice - add ocular wardens and make them an absolute hassle to deal with

Oldman Robustin · Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:29 pm

One of the biggest factors encouraging WAR right now is that it meshes perfectly with the teleporting asshole playstyle - you can dump gazers onto remote space-exposed portions of the station or just bust open windows to space so only people with space suits will bother with clearing them (very few people who have space suit access will be motivated to spend several minutes acting as a space janitor just to beat up the 50 gazers you pooped out).

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:41 pm #369665

During war, power is already a small concern due to the massive reduction in power costs for the cult. Crew priorities during war would include blessing sensitive areas with holy water to prevent incursion, getting the crew aware, armed, and protected, and producing tools and supplies for breaching the defenses. While sabotaging powergen is always important, it becomes less so during war. It's a way to sacrifice stealth and a need to micromanage power to give more time and power to build a stronghold.

factoryman942 · Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:08 am

>bless with holy water
everyone seems to just cut all the cams, which achieves the same thing just without any help from ai
it also doesn't take a chaplain to do, just tools which are available roundstart

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:49 pm #369863

Servants can still actually teleport to places they have no camera vision to; they just can't see what they're getting into. Blessed tiles block warp entirely.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:35 am

Reebe Simulator:

Seriously why is this a thing. Also why do brass skewers stun when we already have automatic floor-based fucking stun defenses. CC would be 23.7% more tolerable if these fucking insta-win spears didnt cover every single available fucking turf.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 am #372964

Oldman Robustin wrote:Reebe Simulator:

Seriously why is this a thing. Also why do brass skewers stun when we already have automatic floor-based fucking stun defenses. CC would be 23.7% more tolerable if these fucking insta-win spears didnt cover every single available fucking turf.

they break in one hit get good

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:30 pm #374639

Armhulen wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Reebe Simulator:

Seriously why is this a thing. Also why do brass skewers stun when we already have automatic floor-based fucking stun defenses. CC would be 23.7% more tolerable if these fucking insta-win spears didnt cover every single available fucking turf.
they break in one hit get good

robustin complaining about clockcult while defending bloodcult will never cease to be the funniest fucking thing i have ever seen

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:35 pm #374641

Remove them both Jesus christ please

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:32 pm #374651

Wyzack wrote:Remove them both Jesus christ please

does fucking anyone like conversion modes like goddamn

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm

The steam vents conceals everything so its impossible to know which have been cleared, and you don't clear vents in "one hit" theyre pretty damn tanky.

Also I only advocate where advocacy is needed - there's a lot I don't like about cult gameplay either.

I'll also repeat what I've pitched before:

1) Remove or massively nerf gazer income. Nerf can be a flat reduction or something that reduces gazer income based on the # of nearby gazers.

2) Buff cog income

3) Limit CC teleportation to a few chiefly public places. Central halls, dorms, bathrooms, maint.

4) Integration cogs will slowly "spread" their corruption to a nearby APC. In turn that APC wlll spread it corruption to another nearby APC while the original goes "dormant" (continues to feed power but doesn't spread).

5) Aside from the public spots mentioned in #3, CC will be able to teleport to places where the APC has been corrupted.

Aside from making power generation sane, it would also move us away from the warcult meta.

@Qbopper: Plenty of people do, but this isn't the forum for "people who like things". I prefer conversion rounds because they never play out the same way twice and conversion gives us wide-scale conflict that traitorling typically doesn't. This was our poll last summer when Clockcult was in its death throes: https://atlantaned.space/newSS13tools/p ... p?poll=169

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:55 pm #374653

Pretty sure we had a game poll a few months ago that put both cult modes at the bottom in terms of how much people liked them. Would be neat if someone could pull that out

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:16 pm #374668

I distinctly recall CC rating around 4th on the list, though I'm not sure where the actual results are.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 am #374752

Xhuis wrote:I distinctly recall CC rating around 4th on the list, though I'm not sure where the actual results are.

xhuis i really do appreciate the work you put into clockcult and sympathize with the amount of shit you take but i think at this point it's just an inherent shitty unfun game when conversion is involved

kor please dont quote me and prove me wrong again

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:52 am #374759

I like playing the mode and enjoy it; when I make things I develop them in a way that I enjoy because that's what fits my mental image of "good." I can't really say much more than that.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:21 am #374840

Brass skewers need their cost tripled or something.

I stopped counting when I saw well over ONE HUNDRED of them in one round.

Seriously. You get pushed into them by lemmings or Marauders fly over and push you into them.Then you effectively form a wall that takes a good 5 sec plus to get by minimum and are taken from full HP to Orange at BEST.

Skewers need to be straight up removed. Or at least cost tripled and cultists triggering them when they step on them.

Or just get rid of this trash game mode/revert to old clock cult. This is actually the first time I would rather play fucking REV than another game mode of all things.

onleavedontatme · Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:29 am

I saw 8 crew get skewered at the same time today running into a massive field of steam vents it was the funniest thing

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:06 pm #374946

pressure sensors can be destroyed in one hit so if you seen an active steam vent all you need to do is alt-click it and then hit the pressure sensor with an extinguisher or something to permanently disable it
as for spamming them I'd like to prevent being able to have more than say one or two traps in a tile when I tried I was unable to get the check to work properly due to how construction works so :shrug:

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:50 pm #374949

The problem isn't the pressure sensors durability. The problem is that when you have a 15 line deep field of spear traps in a row spanning all across the reebe platform.

You can break the first couple, only to either:
A. Get pushed into the third or one to the side one by some chucklefuck greyshirt
B. Get dragged/pushed into one by cultists, scarabs or marauders who do not trigger them.
C. Get pushed back by some idiot who runs forward and triggers it blocking your path.
D. Accidentally melee a smoke vent instead of it because of the trap stacking.
E. Have to stop to deconstruct a wall or table.

Did I mention that during all of this, you are being shot at by watchers and having spears and marauders thrown at you?

This isn't even getting into the cancer of instant recalls to prevent deconversion, station wide teleports and telebombing brig and medbay 8 minutes into a round, the ability to convert silicons (which narsie cannot do), and the general awfulness that is being a conversion antag.

The fact that hulk and viro were the biggest counter and are now nerfed and bombs don't work on reebe are just icing on the cake.

Edit: Forgot to mention. Blood cult actually has to build up a base (that can be discovered and destroyed costing them tons of resources) where as clock cult cannot be touched with their autism setup for at least 25 minutes and can just crap out 20 more stargazers like nobodys business. Blood cucks also can be bombed when they try to summon and need TWO people for a conversion.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:55 pm #374952

we need to make traps trigger for clockcultists too so they accidently impale themselves during building and they can't just spam them everyfuckingwhere

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:22 pm #374959

the frustrating part about that is that making servants trigger traps will cause them to come onto the forums and screech
also, this isn't very well-known, but if you're on walk intent, you will not trigger pressure sensors
making the mode entirely separate from the station is feasible but frustrating because you'll be doing your thing 30 minutes in and then BAM tick tock ark time; right now the inevitability of being found out is a preparation factor
nonetheless the concept still appeals to me, as I could also probably make it so that since the antagonists won't be interacting with the round that they could do mulligan or something???

onleavedontatme · Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:54 pm

The traps are fine and easily counterable its the fucking endless marauders that make it a living hell to fight against

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:24 pm #374970

I would like the servants to have constructs but I have to wonder at this point if it's even worth the trouble of doing the balance dance; some ideas I had are old soul vessels, needing X vitality, or needing a structure to maintain them, but I'm not sure

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:51 pm #374974

Maybe a structure that summons a marauder that can only travel a certain distance away from the structure? could make them simplemobs and they would still be a really big threat.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:49 am #374999

Reebe and clockworm armor shouldnt be immune to ash storms. I beleive volcanic ash should jam up and damage cuckwork machines and armor. All that ash is really gonna fuck up your clockwork gum it up maybe even lock the gears

EagleWiz · Post by **EagleWiz** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:29 am #375021

Qbopper wrote: it's just an inherent shitty unfun game when conversion is involved

Oldman Robustin · Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:09 pm

pressure sensors can be destroyed in one hit so if you seen an active steam vent all you need to do is alt-click it and then hit the pressure sensor with an extinguisher

This is a joke right?

You can't plop the entire crew into a linear battle arena and then expect the 30 fucking guys behind you and the 15 enemies ahead of you to just patient stand still while you alt-click every tile in front of you, then click on the proper attack target in your menu.

No.

Someone bumps you, you get pushed into the steam vent while using some eclectic target selection hotkey to try and hit the right thing and then a marauder beats you to death while you're shishkebab'd and a rune eats whatever's left.

Keep in mind as per my completely illustrative screenshot showed, there can be:

1) Steam Vent

2) Pressure Sensor

3) Spear trap

4) Stun Rune

5) Vitality Matrix

All on the same tile. Even if you break the spear trap you still risk walking into a stun + harm + steam deathtile. So for something that gets spammed dozens of times on Reebe you're asking people to alt click and carefully smash up to three different items on every single tile while a battle and constantly pushing rages around you.

SpaceInaba · Post by **SpaceInaba** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:29 pm #375125

making cultists activate their own traps would be a nice idea because it would discourage them from just spamming traps all over the second they get enough electricity to spam brass plates

another interesting idea that is probably bad because it comes from me is to disable conversion during war. War makes you a spaceproof, more powerful golem with big energy discounts. Sure they might try and go on a murder spree on station but at least their numbers are not growing any bigger, sure you'll still have a lot of traps and walls and whatnot but at least when you finally survive all that stuff you dont have 40 guys all armed with spears and armor

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:39 pm #375155

SpaceInaba wrote:disable conversion during war. War makes you a spaceproof, more powerful golem with big energy discounts. Sure they might try and go on a murder spree on station but at least their numbers are not growing any bigger, sure you'll still have a lot of traps and walls and whatnot but at least when you finally survive all that stuff you dont have 40 guys all armed with spears and armor

what the fuck this isn't the case already??

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:54 pm #375157

Qbopper wrote:
SpaceInaba wrote:disable conversion during war. War makes you a spaceproof, more powerful golem with big energy discounts. Sure they might try and go on a murder spree on station but at least their numbers are not growing any bigger, sure you'll still have a lot of traps and walls and whatnot but at least when you finally survive all that stuff you dont have 40 guys all armed with spears and armor
what the fuck this isn't the case already??

If youre gonna do this, could you let the eminence go on the offencive (visor attacks on the station, insta cult zerg swarm, bolt/shock doors on cooldown)

SpaceInaba · Post by **SpaceInaba** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm #375167

calzilla1 wrote:
Qbopper wrote:
SpaceInaba wrote:disable conversion during war. War makes you a spaceproof, more powerful golem with big energy discounts. Sure they might try and go on a murder spree on station but at least their numbers are not growing any bigger, sure you'll still have a lot of traps and walls and whatnot but at least when you finally survive all that stuff you dont have 40 guys all armed with spears and armor
what the fuck this isn't the case already??
If youre gonna do this, could you let the eminence go on the offencive (visor attacks on the station, insta cult zerg swarm, bolt/shock doors on cooldown)

maybe some very weak, perhaps slow ability to go toe to toe with the ai (with the ai being more powerful) would be interesting to keep war cult from eating hot ass but a hostile AI that the crew cant kill efficiently that spawns because some chumps pressed a button would be waaaay too much if you ask me

Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:12 pm

clock cult is consistently very boring, largely in part because they can just build up power passively and an optimally played clock cult will be able to activate the arc with essentially no real resistance. sitting for 5 minutes jerking off with the rest of the cult at the end while the ark screeches for an eternity is one of the least enjoyable times to be on the server. literally nothing happens and then ratvar appears which is still lame since it just immediately ends the round.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:33 pm

There needs to be a way for the arc to summon faster when the clocks have already won, otherwise there's just a 5 minute drone until the round gets to restart.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:27 am

Gazers simply have to go or see a huge reduction in income.

I rushed AI sat for Gazers while someone else hit atmos tanks, within the first 5 minutes we generated more power than we would use for the entire round.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:30 am #376299

This is not okay. People have figured out it's once again easier to treat the round like magic rev and are using it's free range teleports and eye wardens to simply go all over the fucking place and kill people. I would say it's even worse now.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:34 am #376300

There should be conditions that result in an early victory. Such as... 70+% of the crew is dead or converted

https://imgur.com/a/F8kXw

Turns out spamming watchers on station is a very good strat to kill the entire crew on a lower population station.

EagleWiz · Post by **EagleWiz** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:43 am #376302

Cult is just not a fun game mode most of the time. Its balanced, but its the sort of balance where 45% of the time the cult manages to kill or convert most of the crew before the arc even activates, and 45% of the time the crew sticks together and takes precautions and then the arc showdown is a well armed sec team, a couple hulks, and some guys with mechs fighting like 5 dudes. The other maybe 10% is the actually interesting part, but its rare.
Also I kind of suspect crew would never lose if they had the whole crew go to the armory, get guns, shut down toxins and robotics, and then go hide on lavalands until arc time.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:00 am

CC is going to be dramatically different once gazers are gone.

Servants are going to have to expend of a ton of effort puttings cogs into APC's to generate enough power, anything less than thorough cog usage will have the cult running on empty all shift.

This should be a big nerf to warcult (hard to cog APC's when youre KOS) and hopefully push the cult into staying on station longer instead of just being a hit and run asshole squad. But I still think they need something else for abilities to be an effective and engaging foe when they're not hiding behind 50 runes, traps, and wardens.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:12 am #376347

EagleWiz wrote:Cult is just not a fun game mode most of the time. Its balanced, but its the sort of balance where 45% of the time the cult manages to kill or convert most of the crew before the arc even activates, and 45% of the time the crew sticks together and takes precautions and then the arc showdown is a well armed sec team, a couple hulks, and some guys with mechs fighting like 5 dudes. The other maybe 10% is the actually interesting part, but its rare.
Also I kind of suspect crew would never lose if they had the whole crew go to the armory, get guns, shut down toxins and robotics, and then go hide on lavalands until arc time.

This is kind of my biggest issue with the mode now. I rarely see clock cult rounds where the winner isnt already decided before the portals even open. Conversion is too good of a tactic and base building is too hard to do without mass conversion for power generation. Also certain things are basically noob traps for new cultists, like clockwork walls being basically useless with how easy they are to destroy.

I am not smart enough to come up with solutions to these problems.

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:17 am

the whole reebe thing feels like it's trying to mimic gang dominators. Where you have to activate it to win but the process of doing so alerts everybody and you have to defend it for a few minutes. Only instead of racing against other gangs you just go at your own pace which makes it way easier, and instead of having to fashion a base out of the station to place it you literally get a whole z-level for it. And instead of guns and uniforms you literally get magic powers that include stuns, cuffs, guradian spirits, stun reduction, etc.

It's literally gangs but with better equipment, a different theme, and the flaws exaggerated. Like gang if it was just the bad parts of it and only those parts consistently. It even gets called out earlier than gang tags got gangs called out if the clock cult decides to declare war. I don't get how people are so OK with this when gang was so vehemently hated

EagleWiz · Post by **EagleWiz** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:54 pm #376882

PKPenguin321 wrote: I don't get how people are so OK with this when gang was so vehemently hated

Nicest explanation: teams are the whole station vs one cult instead of multiple gangs, with it being really hard to win if the bad gang recruits you

Less nice explination: gangbangers don't use magic and clockwork themed stuff and people like magic and clockwork themed stuff

Least nice explination: gang was awesome and people are morons

factoryman942 · Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:14 am

Question
Why do all the things use watts and not joules?
'Watts per second' makes me die inside slightly every time I read it

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:12 am #377377

i'm not an electrician