Decentralize Research

[onleavedontatme]

Deconstructing random nonsense for tech levels is replaced with the techweb, so RnD is now a passive timegate that the RD can set a queue for vs a full time job for scientists

Each department gets its own lathe which automatically gets the appropriate designs sent to it (the warden can print fancy new guns, engineering can print flightsuits or new tools or whatever, medbay gets the implants)

QM gets to view how many resources are in each lathe and decide where to send the mining hauls

Circuits replace the research lab as sciences main job where they build insane custom robots https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/32481

RnD becomes a background track of the stations progress that everyone benefits from (and maybe everyone contributes to, if we let completing tasks in various departments give boosts to the techweb). The round no longer hinges on a single room/that single room no longer has cooler stuff than everyone else within 20 minutes. Everyone gets cool stuff instead of constant wars about "RnD powercreep"

Is this back of a napkin concept worth expanding on?

[PKPenguin321]

Science becomes factorio would be awesome, I know that much

[ShadowDimentio]

Sounds good boss.

[duncathan]

While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?

[BeeSting12]

I like it a lot, and duncathan's idea is good too.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Barring anything else, this seems like a good solution to a sticky problem.

[onleavedontatme]

While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?

It would be extremely difficult to do that given those two jobs are usually mapped on opposite sides of the station from one another

[PKPenguin321]

While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?

It would be extremely difficult to do that given those two jobs are usually mapped on opposite sides of the station from one another

Really all they need is access to the testing launch area and some TTVs and signallers on their desk

[Anonmare]

How about revamping robotics into the circuitry department and have them work with engineering? We do have an EngieSci encryption key unused in the code

[onleavedontatme]

How about revamping robotics into the circuitry department and have them work with engineering? We do have an EngieSci encryption key unused in the code

Robotics already has a solid amount of work with augments/borgs/mechs and are not a source of great controversy, they're not at the top of the list to replace or redo

[duncathan]

A major change like this would be a good time to do a major remapping of Box regardless. Other maps can update themselves or fall out of rotation (maybe remap Meta too)

[LifeReign]

How will mining materials be distributed in this system?

[onleavedontatme]

The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

[cedarbridge]

If the plan is to make research pervasive then there needs to be some sort of way for the department getting the upgrades to interact with the process toward those upgrades. This should require the majority of the work be done by the actual science department but medical should be contributing into the pool if medical is getting the top tier upgrades to their stuff.

[captain sawrge]

The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

Can't you already use the (currently never-used) request consoles for this too

[BeeSting12]

I would be willing to remap metastation and boxstation's toxins to atmospherics if this is going to be a thing.

[naltronix]

fund it

[NanookoftheNorth]

The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

So QM now has the most important role in the station. Suddenly both the HoP line and cargo line will be full. I can't wait to bomb both lines.

I like the idea better than the current research means. However, science would need more to it than robots, BRING BACK TELESCIENCE

[onleavedontatme]

If the plan is to make research pervasive then there needs to be some sort of way for the department getting the upgrades to interact with the process toward those upgrades. This should require the majority of the work be done by the actual science department but medical should be contributing into the pool if medical is getting the top tier upgrades to their stuff.

Medical contributes by keeping everyone alive that is their role in things. Maybe unlocking certain viruses or genetics powers could give boosts though.

The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

Can't you already use the (currently never-used) request consoles for this too

Yeah, it wouldn't require any extra work other than letting the QM remotely check how much different lathes have stored in them.

[christ110]

YES, BRING BACK TELESCIENCE, FUCK THESE USELESS LAUNCHPADS.

[captain sawrge]

Could have the consoles show the current web and request/prioritize certain research too might be neat

[Wyzack]

This is a good idea lorewise as well because it helps to justify all these other departments on a research station and spreads the love a bit

+1

[TribeOfBeavers]

How do individual departments contribute to research? Do they get something like unique items/reports to give to the RD for research? Or is it just a passive thing that happens as people do research-esque stuff?

[onleavedontatme]

How do individual departments contribute to research? Do they get something like unique items/reports to give to the RD for research? Or is it just a passive thing that happens as people do research-esque stuff?

They won't in the initial version of this because I don't want to kill the project with feature creep but examples might include

-Cargo blowing cash on buying tech boosts/mining discovering tech boosts in ruins

-Medical getting boosts for discovering certain powers or viruses

-Atmospherics having target custom gas mixes like robustin suggested

-Some sort of deconstrutive analyzer knockoff in security for them to consume traitor gear for boosts

-Botany I'm sure could do plants or something

-Science will have the experimentor eventually

[Qbopper]

Science becomes factorio would be awesome, I know that much

This is a good idea lorewise as well because it helps to justify all these other departments on a research station and spreads the love a bit

+1

[Dr_bee]

Side idea if this goes through, but consider decentralizing the entire science department in a way, by giving other jobs departmental versions of the labcoat.

it is a spriting thing I know, but just changing the little purple stripe on the science labcoat to other department colors would make RPing as an atmospherics scientist, or botanical researcher, or medical researcher a little easier.

Maybe add optional titles as well.

It would cement RnD as a stationwide thing and limit the actual science department to focusing on xenobiology and robotics.

[oranges]

okay, why not, i'll merge it

[megatiger78]

What's this?

a good idea?

outside of the bad ideas thread?

[Calibraptor]

This actually sounds like a pretty fantastic idea that I wouldn't mind seeing test merged.

[obscolene]

This actually sounds like a pretty fantastic idea that I wouldn't mind seeing test merged.

[kevinz000]

Techwebs are almost done except for two compile errors.
After that we need to get integrated circuits working and somehow get a departmental lathe system that is manageable without it being who can loot cargo first.

[Gun Hog]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

[onleavedontatme]

Laziest way would be a quartermaster ID lock instead of science RD lock before remapping ore redemption location out of the public hallway

Also as far as departmental lathes go, do you think you could add a new var to each tech that determines which lathe it goes to?

The lathes being medical, security, robotics, engineering, supply (for mining)

I could try doing it if you dont want to though you have done a ton of work already

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

[TribeOfBeavers]

You could give the QM a console that lets them see the material levels of the various lathes and the ability to send a mule bot to remotely fill them.

Makes the QM a bit more important, and allows for materials to potentially be stolen as they travel to a department. This would let antags and/or disgruntled employees sabotage the supplies of particular departments or steal the materials for themselves if they wanted.

[Anonmare]

There's also the mail room. Package a crate, tag it with the scanner and send it via disposals

[cedarbridge]

The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

The RD would gather the fruits of his department's labor by going to the different departments of the station where he doesn't have general access to use a lathe in those departments where he does have access?

That sounds really clunky.

[onleavedontatme]

His department wont be labouring on RD anymore

[christ110]

maybe we could add a special mulebot, that is specifically for hauling ores, and it automatically dumps a specified amount of ores from the orm replacement directly into the dept autolathe, so the normal crew doesnt have to deal with ores, unless you're trying to steal the ores.

then we can have the qm look at the various levels of ores, and send out mulebots on their own.

[onleavedontatme]

If anyone wants to do some lazy recolours of the protolathe to make a variant for:

Supply

Medical

Engineering

Security

I'd appreciate that

[Gun Hog]

Also as far as departmental lathes go, do you think you could add a new var to each tech that determines which lathe it goes to?

The lathes being medical, security, robotics, engineering, supply (for mining)

I could try doing it if you dont want to though you have done a ton of work already

Research designs are already separated by categories. We can divide up the accesses using that, making adjustments/new categories as needed. I.E. The "Firing Pins", "Weapons", and "Ammo" categories would be locked to Security.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

I still have a problem with this. The Roboticists will want to build mechs, a normal Scientist will now have one less job to do. There is also talk of removing Toxins from Science and giving it to Atmos. If you are restricting or removing the protolathe as well, then you are severely diminishing what that role used to be. There will only be Xenobio left for a normal Scientist (unless the circuits thing gets in I guess). While Xenobio is loaded with plenty of content, it is at max a two person job.

The combination of restricting access to designs along with the limitations Techwebs will bring may result in those designs not being researched. Why would I care about designs other than upgraded stock parts, mech equipment, borg upgrades and gear for the miners? If by "give him access", you mean giving the RD access to other departments like the HoS has, I would recommend against it. Simply put, the Scientists would be reluctant to spend the research points on something they cannot get or use.

[ninjanomnom]

The project tracker can be found here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/projects/12

I definitely feel that whatever mapping changes we want to do should all be done in one go. If we do really end up with integrated circuits being shared between science and engineering that's going to require a pretty major map overhaul and everything else can be done at the same time.

I still have a problem with this. The Roboticists will want to build mechs, a normal Scientist will now have one less job to do. There is also talk of removing Toxins from Science and giving it to Atmos. If you are restricting or removing the protolathe as well, then you are severely diminishing what that role used to be. There will only be Xenobio left for a normal Scientist (unless the circuits thing gets in I guess). While Xenobio is loaded with plenty of content, it is at max a two person job.

The combination of restricting access to designs along with the limitations Techwebs will bring may result in those designs not being researched. Why would I care about designs other than upgraded stock parts, mech equipment, borg upgrades and gear for the miners? If by "give him access", you mean giving the RD access to other departments like the HoS has, I would recommend against it. Simply put, the Scientists would be reluctant to spend the research points on something they cannot get or use.

Integrated circuits getting in is part of the core of all this happening. Toxins most likely won't be getting out of science without it as much as I'd like to.

Also as far as the behaviors of scientists: You can't change how people will act without changing something first or major admin policy change.

All this leaves room for some buffs to science again and people like always are going to love buffing science.

[JJRcop]

What can antags do to sabotage this, and how can the crew recover from sabotage?

[Armhulen]

If anyone wants to do some lazy recolours of the protolathe to make a variant for:

Supply

Medical

Engineering

Security

I'd appreciate that

i want to do this but only if nobody else is

[Anonmare]

If I knew spiriting, I'd just put a departmental-coloured stripe along the side. Simple and identifiable

[Yakumo_Chen]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

[cedarbridge]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

He mentioned this being tied in with the Experimentor machine, but apart from filling a lab with crabs and pugs I've never really found much entertainment from that process. I never found the "feed the bullshit into the grinder" process terribly interesting, the parts and tools you could get after the drudgework were interesting and allowed for lots of fun station upgrades. Medbay becomes your best friend after you've installed their 5th cloning pod.

[ShadowDimentio]

What can antags do to sabotage this, and how can the crew recover from sabotage?

Blow up the R&D server. Alternatively, let the R&D server computer control research available at the various lathes, with some (or all) being removed at will.

[Arianya]

Most of this sounds great!

I dislike moving toxins to atmospherics, but other then that its 10/10

[Noka]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

He mentioned this being tied in with the Experimentor machine, but apart from filling a lab with crabs and pugs I've never really found much entertainment from that process. I never found the "feed the bullshit into the grinder" process terribly interesting, the parts and tools you could get after the drudgework were interesting and allowed for lots of fun station upgrades. Medbay becomes your best friend after you've installed their 5th cloning pod.

The main joy of the current process is when you first learn it - while you can treat it as FEED BULLSHIT INTO GRINDER at the end - is the joy of spelunking around the station accruing random shit with research values.

Nothing wrong with changing it into techwebs, but I'd have to say that if scientists no longer have a defined purpose aside from toxins or robots, they should get something extra for the Techweb (such as increasing science generation via calibration? Or something like that - Research should have some active science to it, it shouldn't just be sitting on your hands and picking web nodes. That works in a singleplayer game, but SS13 is anything but.)

I'd prefer for researchers to have a genuine purpose in respect to the techwebs, not just casually sidelined into being secondary roboticists.

[bunny232]

Sounds great would rate this 10 dead heretics out of 10 dead heretics