Clockwork Cult (now off of rotation, suggestions go in this thread)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:49 pm #341082

Right now, clockwork cult is off of rotation due to poor reception and controversial design. In the meantime, this thread is used for people to discuss how the mode can be changed or modified.

Spoiler:

Post by **Vekter** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:37 pm #341099

Fucking thank you. I'll read over it later tonight.

onleavedontatme · Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:36 pm

Might get dull once the meta develops but right now watching the entire population of the server have a brawl in one giant room is extremely entertaining as an observer

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:47 pm #342159

Kor wrote:Might get dull once the meta develops but right now watching the entire population of the server have a brawl in one giant room is extremely entertaining as an observer

Some map variation would be nice, but honestly this mode does a better job of being Rev then Rev mode. Nice pressure valve!

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:00 am #342206

it's actually fun and doesn't make me want to just quit the game when I get converted

this is so far the only conversion mode that I feel this way about

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:10 am #342213

WE NEED MORE BLOONS TOWER DEFENSE OMG

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:48 am #342235

I enjoyed my one round with it. Massive battles are what I enjoy most about SS13, and why War Ops and conversion modes are my favorite. I like to get involved in the fight, in a group, with lots happening. Dying in maint to a Traitor/Ling that does not kill anyone else is so dull in comparison!

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:19 pm #342322

it's nice because it's one of those things where anyone can contribute

obviously everybody on the cult can use the magic and shit, but as for the crew

you can snatch a medkit and hang back and heal people

you can make some improvised weapons, which aren't great, but a flood of retards with spears can do some damage if someone is caught off guard

I saw a scientist dump slimes into rebee which was kinda clever

sec obviously has guns

roboticists can make mechs which are a big threat

I really really like it when a mode gets everyone involved, and conversion modes are usually pretty poor at doing that, so this is a good change

naltronix · Post by **naltronix** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:16 pm #342358

just played a round, windoors+thin window things are kind of an issue
like a big one

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:45 pm #342373

naltronix wrote:just played a round, windoors+thin window things are kind of an issue
like a big one

what do you mean?

killerx09 · Post by **killerx09** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:16 am #342468

What happens if Bloodcult goes against Clockcult? Does that work?

onleavedontatme · Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:30 am

It'd be pretty bad since blood cultists could probably blitz and win before the clock cultists timer was up. Their summoning ritual is way simpler.

They could also just send wraiths to ghost past all the defenses

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:20 am #342491

That is a shame, because the two cults have mechanics specifically for fighting each other. It is Light vs Dark!

onleavedontatme · Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:00 am

The little extra bits on some items for the opposing cult always seemed more like little lore tidbits and an afterthought rather than part of a serious push for a cult vs cult design

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:54 am #342516

In the few rounds I've played the clock cult nearly always gets steamrollered thanks to either a borg with rcd or just through several people using rcds. In one round I was just throwing rcds through the portal at one point for people.

The only time I've seen the cult almost win was when they used a nice r-wall screen and there were no engiborgs. If it is to remain this way I suggest giving clockcult their own version of r-wall or maybe making rcds unable to disassemble clock-walls. They are just the most OP thing at the moment.

Post by **Cobby** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:32 pm #342566

Rustledjimm wrote:In the few rounds I've played the clock cult nearly always gets steamrollered thanks to either a borg with rcd or just through several people using rcds. In one round I was just throwing rcds through the portal at one point for people.

The only time I've seen the cult almost win was when they used a nice r-wall screen and there were no engiborgs. If it is to remain this way I suggest giving clockcult their own version of r-wall or maybe making rcds unable to disassemble clock-walls. They are just the most OP thing at the moment.

Theres also a people aspect in cc too where the structures may fall short. RCDs can be countered through converting or killing these people yourself.

I'm hoping more turret types become available though that also address this (and help with the cc tower defense meme)

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:15 pm #342581

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:
Rustledjimm wrote:In the few rounds I've played the clock cult nearly always gets steamrollered thanks to either a borg with rcd or just through several people using rcds. In one round I was just throwing rcds through the portal at one point for people.

The only time I've seen the cult almost win was when they used a nice r-wall screen and there were no engiborgs. If it is to remain this way I suggest giving clockcult their own version of r-wall or maybe making rcds unable to disassemble clock-walls. They are just the most OP thing at the moment.
Theres also a people aspect in cc too where the structures may fall short. RCDs can be countered through converting or killing these people yourself.

I'm hoping more turret types become available though that also address this (and help with the cc tower defense meme)

RCDs probably should not be able to remove clockwork walls. Have thermite still work however.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:42 pm #342590

Or make RCDs just ever so slightly quicker than manual deconstruction, so there's an advantage, but it isn't just chewing through walls no problem?

Oldman Robustin · Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:34 pm

They can convert now? Version I played a couple weeks ago had no conversion.

My only issue is that the structure of these rounds seems like it will get stale fast. It's like a reverse warops but whereas prep'ing defense for Warops only takes 20 minutes and the Warops arsenal is so diverse that the "meta" never really settles on one strategy or tactic.

Conversion might spice things up since the crew will still have to be on their toes during the "prep" period and you can't blindly trust everyone like in Warops... but the defense situation runs into problems too - whereas Warops have to attack into an entire station which might have any number of threats, the Ratvar nerds have a limited space and limited lineup to defend with.

I'm optimistic, the final stage of CC 1.0 was just painful without marauders and constructs to cheese the endgame, this has to be better - but I can't help but feel like a reverse Warops (attack a syndicate base/ship, get their disk, blow their station) would be more fun without all the extra work and balancing required to make CC 2.0 function properly.

The fate of this mode is going to come down to how well designed the conversion and station-side cult activities are, and prompt nerfing of cheese strats.

onleavedontatme · Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:38 pm

The fate of this mode is going to come down to how well designed the conversion and station-side cult activities are

This is why I'm pretty optimistic as well. Even if the cult abilities are limited, they have a ton of options when it comes to stealing stuff from the station.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:53 pm

Still haven't played as a cultist but the delay feels too long since it lets the crew put together the best possible combat equipment - stuff that the CC simply can't compete with. They can try to steal portable shit but there's no way they're gonna make mechs or seize RND unless the crew is just awful/lowpop.

Hulks also appear to be an issue for the CC. Once CC is discovered its not hard for genetics to hand out hulk to everyone who isn't holding a gun and I don't think any antag short of nukeops is equipped to deal with hulk spam.

If conversion is still geist+rune, you should consider changing it back to just Geis and maybe making the "ring" a little stronger so that you can solo convert crew without stuns, it should be an abductor style thing where being alone leaves you vulnerable (but certainly not helpless) but being around others means you're probably safe. Having to leave runes around just means you'll get detected sooner and conversions will be far too difficult to pull off. As far as I can tell the CC has a 0% chance of winning if it can't get a significant number of converts.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:52 pm #343878

Geis has been scrapped. It was replaced with a handcuff scripture and Kindle, which is a short-range stun projectile fired from your dread ipad.

Hulks are definitely a problem, but hulks are by nature balance-breaking and implementing a clockcult-specific counter to them would seem grudgecodey.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 pm

Im definitely not advocating for a hulk nerf, I've invaded Reebe several times now but its the same story every time. I'll send you a PM after I get a chance to see what the cult actually has to play with but one suggetsion everyone can agree on is that 40 minutes is wayyyy too long, the crew benefits from that window far more than the cult.

Edit: Poked around a local server, there's a LOT of issues.

AnonymousNow · Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 am

How is 40 minutes too long? The problem I'm seeing is that the cultists don't even seem to realise that they're supposed to be stealthy for the most part, or so it seems.

Have we had any successful instances of War Cult yet? Not cult successes, I mean runs of War Cult we can take information from.

onleavedontatme · Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:02 am

Xhuis wrote:implementing a clockcult-specific counter to them would seem grudgecodey.

They also shit on xenomorphs, malf AIs, cultists, and used to steamroll HoG/gang as well. Anyone who requires anything resembling a static position generally gets stomped on by xray hulks with tiny hitboxes rushing in.

I think some genetics power that grants armblade/tentacle/ventcrawl would still be pretty hideously strong without all the problems of stun immunity and ignoring any sort of fortification.

I think the big genetics rework replaced hulk as well but I'm not sure thats getting finished anymore.

AnonymousNow · Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:36 am

So how do we fix the hulk problem? Hulks are great fun, but that they can be pumped out fairly indiscriminately and ignore stuns (which suggests an issue with stuns, but that's a kettle of fish the size of a steamer) means that they'll always be A) the preference and B) the vanguard for an anti-clock cult strike.

Do we solve it antag by antag? Maybe give clock cult a DNA Pulse trap that irradiates the DNA of anyone who passes over it? Or do we tweak hulks?

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:58 am #343958

AnonymousNow wrote:So how do we fix the hulk problem? Hulks are great fun, but that they can be pumped out fairly indiscriminately and ignore stuns (which suggests an issue with stuns, but that's a kettle of fish the size of a steamer) means that they'll always be A) the preference and B) the vanguard for an anti-clock cult strike.

Do we solve it antag by antag? Maybe give clock cult a DNA Pulse trap that irradiates the DNA of anyone who passes over it? Or do we tweak hulks?

teleport to genetics

deconstruct

leave

done!

DiamondSentinel · Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 am

Armhulen wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:So how do we fix the hulk problem? Hulks are great fun, but that they can be pumped out fairly indiscriminately and ignore stuns (which suggests an issue with stuns, but that's a kettle of fish the size of a steamer) means that they'll always be A) the preference and B) the vanguard for an anti-clock cult strike.

Do we solve it antag by antag? Maybe give clock cult a DNA Pulse trap that irradiates the DNA of anyone who passes over it? Or do we tweak hulks?
teleport to genetics

deconstruct

leave

done!

And the sucky part is that this works 9 out of 10 times because 9 out of 10 times, science and engineering are too useless to rebuild genetics.

Post by **Cobby** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 am #343976

It's so weird people don't understand this when they already do it innately on blob: hit the hard counter areas first.

DiamondSentinel · Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:58 am

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:It's so weird people don't understand this when they already do it innately on blob: hit the hard counter areas first.

>Implying it works very well on blob rounds anyways.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:59 am #344002

AnonymousNow wrote:So how do we fix the hulk problem? Hulks are great fun, but that they can be pumped out fairly indiscriminately and ignore stuns (which suggests an issue with stuns, but that's a kettle of fish the size of a steamer) means that they'll always be A) the preference and B) the vanguard for an anti-clock cult strike.

Do we solve it antag by antag? Maybe give clock cult a DNA Pulse trap that irradiates the DNA of anyone who passes over it? Or do we tweak hulks?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/31331

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:52 am #344027

can lizards still not be hulk?
make entire station lizards, hulk problem solved

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm #344052

DemonFiren wrote:can lizards still not be hulk?
make entire station lizards, hulk problem solved

Shoo shoo furfag

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:36 pm #344399

might wanna raise the minimum pop for clock to at least 50+ players. This justifies more clock buffs/extra available clock strats but also means there's a a)decent fight b)it's not one or two competent station crew dealing walls and walls and more walls in an incredibly anti-climatic and boring last few minutes.

Also, totally let clock cult build their own version of reflectors and emitters to make emitter mazes so it's not just walls windows walls windows walls windows tables tables windows tables walls windows walls walls. Just make it so they can't use it to crash the server

DiamondSentinel · Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:38 pm

imblyings wrote:might wanna raise the minimum pop for clock to at least 50+ players. This justifies more clock buffs/extra available clock strats but also means there's a a)decent fight b)it's not one or two competent station crew dealing walls and walls and more walls in an incredibly anti-climatic and boring last few minutes.

Also, totally let clock cult build their own version of reflectors and emitters to make emitter mazes so it's not just walls windows walls windows walls windows tables tables windows tables walls windows walls walls. Just make it so they can't use it to crash the server

They have "emitters". Ocular Wardens work similarly, except they can turn.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:41 pm #344495

Ocular wardens are nothing like emitters. I've been thinking about making them such, though.

DiamondSentinel · Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:40 pm

Xhuis wrote:Ocular wardens are nothing like emitters. I've been thinking about making them such, though.

They are similar in that they are stationary turrets, was what I meant.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:52 am #344517

That's somewhat like comparing a brick wall to a sheet of paper because they're both vaguely rectangular in shape and are solid.

Incomptinence · Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:55 am

You would want a fixed target emitter anyway for something like shooting through a reflector.

Lumbermancer · Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:43 pm

Infinitely spawning Clockwork Marauders flooding brig is not fun and interactive design.

DiamondSentinel · Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:50 pm

Xhuis wrote:That's somewhat like comparing a brick wall to a sheet of paper because they're both vaguely rectangular in shape and are solid.

No, it's more like comparing a brick wall to a steel wall.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:37 pm

The power costs need to be addressed ASAP, they are massively out of line.

A single scarab (played by ghosts mind you) can burn 18kw in seconds just by dumping 9 walls.

That same power could've gotten you 18 goddamn marauders. There's a limit on how many can be active at once but no limit to spawning, dying, and then using another.

18kw is almost half a tier of progress, or literally hundreds of spell casts... all gone in seconds because people don't realize walls are crazy expensive.

I would heavily favor a new system where the path forward is significantly more narrow and walls are cheap, but the CC gets a limited number of walls to place - this would help focus the action and simplify base construction. I think the #1 reason the CC isn't winning more right now is because scarabs are locking the cult into Tier 1 spells with wallspam, without the power drain from walls its very easy to hit Tier 3 before the 10m mark and start using cheese strats like marauder spam.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:11 pm #345567

Marauder "spam" is actually somewhat something of a rumor. There can only be a few marauders up at one time, with an absolute maximum of 3 if the player number allows for it. If there are still those marauders and the servant can be caught, they're easy to kill or deconvert from there. If it does continue to be a problem, though, I can implement a mechanic to prevent it, although I'm at a loss for what.

Wall costs are an issue, but I'm still iffy about changing them. Defenses being costly to build is the main restrictor, and adding another resource for servants to track seems like a bad idea to me. I may be able to repurpose construction value to limit the size of bases, with a scaling amount of available space (with larger areas for more players) being determined at roundstart.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 pm #345568

I thought the slow speed was the limiting factor?

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 pm #345569

go to the station

make a marauder

it goes around murderboning

when it dies just make another

Oldman Robustin · Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:13 am

What Armhulen said, although there are more urgent problems given how difficult it is to win - but once those get addressed the ability to cheese power generation and poop out marauders is silly.

The more I think about it, the more the mode just needs to be about conversion and APC control.

Remove stargazers, change Reebe so its simplified into 3 lanes of attack where you can only build so much "CV" in each lane.

But really the focus of the mode should be on what happens on-station during the first 40 minutes.

There's still a lot to do Xhuis, really a LOT, but one of the biggest issues nobody is mentioning is that after sound got changed (I dont know what PR) you can hear almost any clock cult spell or APC activity from multiple screens away. It makes stealth almost impossible with 4-5 people can hear you using spells no matter where you are.

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:22 am #345748

that would just be old cult but their base is unreachable

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:47 am #345759

You have a right to have your own ideas for the mode, but I just don't agree with them, and the two changes you proposed are both unquestionably negative.

Power is supposed to be copious by design. The servants either have a great deal of power by using stargazers and cogs or they don't have much of it. This is to compensate for the fact that the average player doesn't take planning and the like into account, and won't bother with contingency in the event of a power outage - just like how they only recognize that engineers exist if the lights start going out. Stargazers are intended as the main source of power generation while cogs provide a background stream that's much harder to squash out. This is also why brass is so expensive to produce; you generally don't have to worry about power, meaning that the ability to keep working on defenses is a very powerful motivator to keep generation up and running. 10 kW is nothing whatsoever if there are five stargazers producing power because you'll get 1 kW every ten seconds and you rarely need that much power for scripture. Stargazers are very cheap to produce en masse (one stargazer pays for itself in three seconds) and they are meant to be both cheap and efficient because of how easy they are to hunt down.
Splitting Reebe into three lanes breaks the point of construction defenses. I could easily foresee cultists turning two lanes into a hellscape that's very difficult to get through and then funneling everyone into a kill-lane that has all the actual defenses. This is very easy to do; a table checkerboard is frustratingly difficult to dismantle or bypass, doubly so if there are wardens, motors, and windows there; making the most basic defenses cost high CV indicates an inherent issue with the concept. A large open area rewards effective design by making unprepared crew shredded very quickly,
but also doesn't punish design that can be described as decent by still allowing the servants themselves to put in plenty of work defending.

Your saying the mode "just" needs to be about conversion and APC control is your opinion, not fact. Given what you did to gangs (directly resulting in its removal, by a downstream coder, no less!) I'm taking all of your statements with several grains of salt, and your passive-aggressive remarks about clockcult being a mess are honestly laughable given how you've turned mostly-functioning modes cobbled together with duct tape and string into unrecognizable masses of conflicting design choices that nobody finds fun to play.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:21 am #345767

Gang turned into a mess because Joan and LeoZ/Lzimann actively conspired to delib. fuck up his rework PRs via forcing him to break his PRs into multiple segments then merging only 1-2 PRs from the resulting set, ignoring the fact they have to work together, because leoz wanted to remove gang way back when.

They were going to do the same to you, Xhuis, and you know it. You're lucky Joan got perma'd and caught evading said perma or your PR would of been closed.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:31 am

Xhuis take time to read what I post man.

I said there would be a CV (construction value) limit per lane so that CC defenses would have to be split evenly.

Power needs to have strategic coherence. Right now it simply doesn't. You grab a space suit (almost effortless) and then dump a bunch of stargazers way off station where nobody will find them.

Power should be a resource, gathering and managing it SHOULD matter. When you just act like cancerous cheese strats are all part of the master plan it makes it seem like you have no plan at all. Why not just give the cult infinite power (or just remove the mechanic) if you think it should just be there as a joke to fuck over people who don't abuse it. Because that's the current divide. Either you cheese power with gazer spam in space and have 300k or you try to "play as intended" and have 10k when the crew shows up.

I wanted you to pull this off given what contributors have to go through to get big shit done around here, but then you quickly resort to shit talking a mode I never asked to have back and never finished work on because of coderbus politics (something you should relate to). Gang in poor form when it got removed and I made several critical QOL improvements (no more wallspam, a reasonable influence system).

Then I added a bunch of stuff with the intent of going to no-security version (something Kor strongly believes in) only to get cockblocked because that version took an extraordinary amount of work, was difficult to get tested, and was actively sabotaged by two maintainers and a headmin - when I finally started getting a no-sec version in good shape the server poll shows 2/3'rds in favor of keeping Gang War but they were split between wanting a "classic" version with the new features and a "vigilante" no security version. I tried to weight the mode about 50/50 with each version but neither side was satisfied with that compromise so I just gave up and took a break. The mode was half-finished and it showed, dozens of bugs and several major imbalances were all addressed in my final PR but it was never merged, we got a summer with an unfinished mode, and after I was gone support dipped from 2/3rds to under half, which makes perfect sense - even I couldn't stand playing the incomplete version and wanted it gone until there would be a serious effort to have it updated.

This was all because PKP brought gang back, I was bored and I felt it had potential, and nobody else wanted to touch it. Bloodcult has been my passion for almost 2 years now and it's been one of the SS13 classics, brought back from the dead and its now solidly within my top 3 favorite modes. Aside from Warops it's the only successful mode update we've seen for several years.

I want CC to succeed too but for some reason you want to make this personal. It's got huge issues but Kor has handed you the reins and instead of being proactive you're sitting here trying to balm your ego. The only balance changes you've made in the past 2 weeks were things I explicitly told you to change. It's frustrating playing this mode every day knowing that you have no interest in some of the most appallingly unfun aspects. CC without some serious attention is going to take the exact same trajectory that Gang did when I abandoned it, RIP in Peace.