A different engine for each map

[nicbn]

Title explains all. What do you think about it?

[PKPenguin321]

I miss the singulo

[DemonFiren]

I miss the singulo

[Super Aggro Crag]

I miss the singulo

[One Seven One]

I miss the singulo

But yeah.
I'm all for each station getting something different.
There just haven't been any singularity releases lately and no one uses that one really big and boxy engine.

[CPTANT]

I don't miss having every other round consist of "ohw the singulo is loose, call the shuttle"

I manage to save around of 80% of sabotaged SM engines when I am am engineering, unless I of course killed or something.

I managed to save 0% of singulo engines because the first thing you heard was goos is loose.

[captain sawrge]

SM is objectively better, death to retarded nostalgiafags continuing to be one of the primary roadblocks in server development.

[bman]

>they removed the sing because it gets loosed every round
>now the sm explodes every round

EXPECTATIONS VS REALITY.

[One Seven One]

Understandable.
I always hated singularity getting released EVERY ROUND and ruining everything for everyone, but I still miss that chaos and the moments when people would try their damnedest to get people to safety.
The SM is just too safe of an option to me. Hell It starts telling you it's about to explode at 1% and gives you ten minutes to fix it.

[Anonmare]

>10 minutes
Only if you suck at sabotage. It's easily possible to overload the SM in such a way as to produce a singularity or a tesla ball in less than ~5 minutes if you know what you're doing.

The SM's stability can be negatively impacted by over-pressurising it, over-charging it, over-heating it and just outright damaging it by tossing stuff into or shooting it.

My personal favourite method is to pipe in CO2, filter out the safety gases, set the alarm to ignore pressure checks and make it impossible for the gases to exit the chamber. Hell you can just pipe in pure plasma and filter out the safe gases and the thing will delaminate faster than you can see "DELAMINATION IMMINENT".

[MollyKristoph]

SM is objectively better, death to retarded nostalgiafags continuing to be one of the primary roadblocks in server development.

And I bid you a long and productive life in a Vietnamese labour camp.

Seriously though SM is boring, it'd be OK if it was the usual powerplant but if we could have a chance of another like say, singulo/tesla option as the next probable chance generator, and an ultralow chance of an extra one like TEG, that'd be great.

[captain sawrge]

SM is objectively better, death to retarded nostalgiafags continuing to be one of the primary roadblocks in server development.

And I bid you a long and productive life in a Vietnamese labour camp.

Seriously though SM is boring, it'd be OK if it was the usual powerplant but if we could have a chance of another like say, singulo/tesla option as the next probable chance generator, and an ultralow chance of an extra one like TEG, that'd be great.

Mechanically speaking the SM has far more depth than the singulo and is far more open to work with on a development level than the singulo/tesla. The issue isn't the engine itself, it's that power is an overabundant and meaningless resource and the best idea we've had so far is "convert it into money to buy spacesuits and guns"

[MollyKristoph]

SM is objectively better, death to retarded nostalgiafags continuing to be one of the primary roadblocks in server development.

And I bid you a long and productive life in a Vietnamese labour camp.

Seriously though SM is boring, it'd be OK if it was the usual powerplant but if we could have a chance of another like say, singulo/tesla option as the next probable chance generator, and an ultralow chance of an extra one like TEG, that'd be great.

Mechanically speaking the SM has far more depth than the singulo and is far more open to work with on a development level than the singulo/tesla. The issue isn't the engine itself, it's that power is an overabundant and meaningless resource and the best idea we've had so far is "convert it into money to buy spacesuits and guns"

Am I the only fukken engineer who actually wants the freedom to fuck off and autismfort/build fun shit once securing power generation for the station, or is this just a myopic coder/admin thing railroading people into having to stay in their little hovels all round?

[Tokiko2]

I'm kinda disappointed over the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the supermatter. It's a change that was prompted by suggestions by engineers. A lot of them said that they would love a more complex engine that they can actually interact with, like bay or goon. Well, I regret listening to that now because apparently these were a loud minority, especially since some people who directly suggested a more complex engine outright refused to learn this new one. Or maybe it really is too complex and coders really are out of touch.

Just tear it out and put the singulo back in. I think we've had enough time to see if it is popular or not and it certainly is not. Don't complain here, just make a PR right now if you actually want stuff to change. I'm not going to stop you, argue against that PR or even give it a negative vote.

Am I the only fukken engineer who actually wants the freedom to fuck off and autismfort/build fun shit once securing power generation for the station, or is this just a myopic coder/admin thing railroading people into having to stay in their little hovels all round?

Would you mind elaborating on what exactly you mean with this? There is nothing stopping you from leaving the supermatter engine once you set it up. The tutorial mix is perfectly stable and is intended for exactly the purpose you stated: A stable, safe engine for engineers that don't want to bother with extra power and want to do something else instead. It's not even a complex mix, anyone can read the tutorial and set it up in a minute. It requires no supervision and could run pretty much infinitely.

I mean sure, if someone goes into the engine room afterwards and sabotages it while all the engineers are away, then yeah, it is going to delaminate after a while, but the same thing is true with the singulo which got loose immediatly so I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

[nicbn]

SM and singularity are not the only engines.

We could use anti-matter, tesla and geothermal, keeping also the solar and the turbine as backup generators.

[MollyKristoph]

I'm kinda disappointed over the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the supermatter.

*whinged incessantly on some shit*

Would you mind elaborating on what exactly you mean with this? *trimmed some other stuff*

On point one, I would've been fine delighted with a Delta Original setup for SM to be an option that Atmosia and Enginerdia shared responsibility for, as it would've been a 'well what the shit is this' type deal for people to take interest in and learn. Same goes for virtually every other powerplant type it seems, as something for people to muck with when they've confidently secured power for the station.
As for the other, it just seems like it needs far more attention than the other types, and with tesla, it was actually fairly easy to set it up so as to be nearly impossible to screw up for saboteurs, and singulo could have been set up for nearly as sabotage-proof as tesla, which meant a round-start time investment similar to emitterless SM setups. On the player side of things, that initial time investment isn't a fault, but rather a feature. I dunno why some people would think it is, and I suspect that those people don't actually play on the live servers.
For the other stuff, things such as a station-wide transit tube or disposal ride is just plain fun, and some of the difficulties with engineers pissing off and letting the station go to hell til after round-end to places like the Derelict could be handled easily by asking them to secure a quick return to the station if they go somewhere fun and interesting, which could mean something as simple as turning on the teleporter and bringing a hand tele with them, or building a new teleporter whereever they go.

[ShadowDimentio]

Public reminder that I FORESAW THIIISSSSSSS

[captain sawrge]

MollyKristoph what Tokiko was trying to say is that there is literally a self-sufficient maintenance-free setup for the SM with a step-by-step tutorial on the wiki. You can do all of that. It's weird that this is your point of contention with singulo vs. SM as well since singulo/tesla were also likely to fuck up and come loose if left unchecked for too long

[MollyKristoph]

MollyKristoph what Tokiko was trying to say is that there is literally a self-sufficient maintenance-free setup for the SM with a step-by-step tutorial on the wiki. You can do all of that. It's weird that this is your point of contention with singulo vs. SM as well since singulo/tesla were also likely to fuck up and come loose if left unchecked for too long

Oddly, no, not really. All it took to keep a singulo/tesla contained against all but sabotage was a few pieces of wire, where as power out to the SM's airscrubbers tends to result in delam, and I'm pretty sure that the air scrubbers are run off of an APC instead of direct-wired.

[Tokiko2]

MollyKristoph what Tokiko was trying to say is that there is literally a self-sufficient maintenance-free setup for the SM with a step-by-step tutorial on the wiki. You can do all of that. It's weird that this is your point of contention with singulo vs. SM as well since singulo/tesla were also likely to fuck up and come loose if left unchecked for too long

Oddly, no, not really. All it took to keep a singulo/tesla contained against all but sabotage was a few pieces of wire, where as power out to the SM's airscrubbers tends to result in delam, and I'm pretty sure that the air scrubbers are run off of an APC instead of direct-wired.

Fair point, when I coded this I was not aware that APCs randomly break or fail. I strongly suggest removing that feature then.

Or you know, the engine like I suggested a few posts above.

[Anonmare]

We could make the engineering APC immune to the power failure event.

I actually genuinely like the SM as I feel like I'm getting rewarded for my atmospherics knowledge for making complex set-ups. I've yet to make a plasma-CO2 only on a live server and it's something of a holy grail for me.

[MollyKristoph]

We could make the engineering APC immune to the power failure event.

I actually genuinely like the SM as I feel like I'm getting rewarded for my atmospherics knowledge for making complex set-ups. I've yet to make a plasma-CO2 only on a live server and it's something of a holy grail for me.

That's fine, but it would be better if there were alternatives, at least per map, no? At least for others' enjoyments.

[captain sawrge]

We could make the engineering APC immune to the power failure event.

I actually genuinely like the SM as I feel like I'm getting rewarded for my atmospherics knowledge for making complex set-ups. I've yet to make a plasma-CO2 only on a live server and it's something of a holy grail for me.

That's fine, but it would be better if there were alternatives, at least per map, no? At least for others' enjoyments.

focusing on one engine means codebase only has one thing to work on, development isnt split between 2-3, means it's more open to modifications/additions.

[Steelpoint]

What is the point of a complex and in depth SM engine when the wiki guide set up is not only quick to do but it produces far more power than you'll ever need?

I liked the Sing due to both the sing usually taking some of the station with it, but also that it gave no warning that it's about to/is breaching containment. The SM is harder to sabotage, blares out warnings the moment it even thinks of overheating and if it blows it only takes out engineering, meaning the rest of the station hardly notices the SM is gone.

Honestly I'd make it that if the SM blows it sets half the station on fire or something, right now it's a non-issue if it goes up.

[Dr_bee]

I love the SM. It the primary problem of the singlo or tesla engines were loosing them ended the round, full stop. They were also stupidly easy to sabotage as you just had to snip 2 wires and the damn thing would be loose before you could do anything about it.

The SM can still be a round ender if properly sabotaged but usually fuckups just blow up engineering and not release a round ending death machine. It actually requires a LITTLE bit of knowledge to sabotage instead of just wirecutters and an emag. also fuckups dont typically end the round, you can just wire the solars and seal the breaches and bam, the round keeps going, at least for a little while longer.

[Anonmare]

You know you can always keep the SM from warning anyone by using the CE's powerflow console to turn off the telecoms APC. It requires engineering access but I'm 99% sure an emag can also get you in, the AI might notice the APC is off but you could always disable the charge mode and drain its battery dry via overload lights to keep it down for a bit longer.

[CPTANT]

The supermatter has 10 times the depth the singulo ever had.

The most damaging even on the station (releasing a singularity) isn't the most trivial thing to do any more. It is still very much possible if you know what you are doing, but now there is actual counterplay possible.

Crisis to prevent supermatter from exploding = fun
A singularity that can't be stopped when it is loose = boring


The supermatter is also something of which you can improve the power output when you know what you are doing. Basically useless now, but lots of fun if power is made less meaningless.

[CPTANT]

Also we have people shouting that the SM explodes every other round and we have people shouting that it is too safe and impossible to sabotage.

Make up your damn mind.

[Dr_bee]

Also we have people shouting that the SM explodes every other round and we have people shouting that it is too safe and impossible to sabotage.

Make up your damn mind.

It is nearly as easy to sabotage as the singularity if you just want to have it blow up, if you want to make it release a singularity or tesla you actually need to know what the fuck you are doing.

And I dont give a flying flip if people complain about it exploding often, the explosions just wreck engineering, and dont cause a damn un-destroyable insta-kill circle to spawn.

[Lazengann]

Engines are just a way to end the round as power generation is done better by solars

I don't really care how many ways you can power the SM as it's either turned on or it's not and the numbers it produces are pointless

[MollyKristoph]

Also we have people shouting that the SM explodes every other round and we have people shouting that it is too safe and impossible to sabotage.

Make up your damn mind.

The same people who scream "idz 2 safe" are the ones who couldn't figure out how to make a safer*** Singulo/Tesla with a guide, and cried about it when they saw it done as "preventing antags from having fun," I imagine.

*** Safer in that one would actually have to go and destroy something, out in the void, and lack the option of just herpyderping the particle accelerator.

[MollyKristoph]

posed a good case for Singulo/Tesla to come back every so often

Would it be better if there was an engine you had to stick around and keep going in some manner? I don't know how to have it in a way that isn't annoying so I want to say something like botany but I don't want it to be a copy/paste.

Another question is if the engine should have all the resources you need to set it up at full capacity in engineering at roundstart. I mean it's sort of set and forget? How would you give room for improvement without making it annoying or disliked for how necessary it is? I mean, hunger barely impacts most rounds (as little as to make the snowflake junk food anti-cheese reagent to not matter) but only because when it used to, there was no guarantee anyone would make food. Would the same happen with power?

I dunno, the issue with hunger not impacting rounds has mostly to do with the length of round, which is an artifact of GOTTAGOFAST antags wrecking stuff. There's a mid-point for its effects having any meaning, and some roles hit hunger quicker than others, but that's beside the point.
The main issue is that the SM is an attentionwhoring crybaby, the SM guide was pretty poorly written for a while, or maybe I caught the particular autism to make any sense of it, and it's just not as enjoyable or awe-inspiring as seeing a looming void of death contained by man's own hubris and engineering prowess.
The difference is that the Singulo guide made for a somewhat touchy engine, but it was actually somewhat intuitive in how to improve its safety, while the SM guide makes for a fairly safe engine and any improvements to be made are behind a hell of a skill lock. With an engiborg that can be trusted to find its output with all three module servos, improving the singulo and tesla is actually safer, has more visual impact, and allows for observers to take note so that they can improve upon it on their own rounds, where as SM improvements are occluded for the most part, and most look no different at a glance from one setup to another.

[lumipharon]

Supermatter engines were FUN when you had to build one from scratch, with a shard from cargo. Plenty of people tried it and plenty of people spectacularly fucked it up, but it was at least a fairly interesting/time consuming challenge.

The current SM engine in (my shitty opinion) is that honestly it's just not very interesting. Yes, it is more complex in terms of how its operated and setup, but because power is very arbitrary (having 'enough' power is never an issue if you have any engine running, and excess power doesn't mean shit), there is nothing to reward the extra complexity.

Also the regular SM explosion is just meh. It fucked engineering only, and usually results in a shuttle call because no one can be assed fixing power and tcomms because ~effort~, so the round effectively ends with a whimper.
Compare this to the singulo, which if it escapes, could
A: fuck off into space with almost no damage (but could hilariously reappear on the otherside of the station if you're unlucky)
B: Tear through the station and horrifically fuck everything up, significantly and very directly influencing the round progression.

Yes, the shuttle will still be called, and the round will still end, but its more exciting, it actually effects the round in a way other than 'fucking tcomms is down, power slowly going out, call da shuttle!'.
Of course having the singulo escape 10 times in a row is shit, but any engine exploding every round is going to be annoying, and but arguably I saw the singulo escape less often then the SM explodes anyway.

[tacolizard]

What is the point of a complex and in depth SM engine when the wiki guide set up is not only quick to do but it produces far more power than you'll ever need?

this is how you make engi infinitely more fun: make the engines generate way less power. Think about it. The basic setup should power 1/3 of the station at once, at most. This will encourage people to actually actively participate in engineering, instead of just setting and forgetting the engine. It's not fun to have a single setup that is objectively better than any other.

[DemonFiren]

Until such point as an optimised setup is put on the wiki.

[CPTANT]

What is the point of a complex and in depth SM engine when the wiki guide set up is not only quick to do but it produces far more power than you'll ever need?

this is how you make engi infinitely more fun: make the engines generate way less power. Think about it. The basic setup should power 1/3 of the station at once, at most. This will encourage people to actually actively participate in engineering, instead of just setting and forgetting the engine. It's not fun to have a single setup that is objectively better than any other.

SMES and APC's should also store way less power. Even without power it takes ages before even the first APC's start to fail.

[tacolizard]

Until such point as an optimised setup is put on the wiki.

at least it would require effort, and be more dangerous than the default.

[MollyKristoph]

*someone asked a terrible question that only non-playing admins and coders would articulate*

this is how you make people cease giving a shit any more than they already have; nerfing existing shit into the ground

Here we see CPTANT failing to understand all the evolutions of gameplay across a 24 hour period, and articulating about as bad an idea as was edited

Honestly, I don't see a not-shit way to fix the engine issue. If you fix it the way you have posed, you essentially fuck lowpop about as hard as the SM has on its own, while doing jack-bugger-all for highpop except for maybe killing the engineers' ability to make a nice engine due to the time constraints imposed by a senseless nerfing of things.
Now, if you want to really make things go well and give engineering something to do? Chem dispensers already treat energy as raw material. Why not an autism-machine that has to be built to make use of excess power to produce plain materials from scrap items? Let it frickin' break things, because you're making up the difference with raw energy, which is by 20th century understanding, a valid if cost-ineffective means of transmuting lower elements into higher elements. Have it have to be set up off of engine mains or something, rather than forcing an artificial, unwanted, and frankly even less enjoyable change than the SM was in the first place.

[Karp]

here's a suggestion

Make something fun to do and rewarding to experiment with rather than trying to find """rewarding progression"""

Add a level of depth to engineering that encourages more and more experimentation with everything and a lot more people will actively partake and enjoy in the department for the sake of the role and enjoyment over it rather than the equipment or so they can complete some dumb checkbook

Forcing people to do tasks they don't want to do as the "basics" is generally a bad idea as it makes everything seem like more of a chore than something fun you want to experiment with. There's a system in the game that already does that. It's called science.

The supermatter was a great step towards this but past that, subsystems of engineering like atmospherics is incredibly basic lacks an effective depth and telecomms is unloved and not properly cared for, while completely ignoring features that haven't really received any major usability changes like modular computers or logic gate button stuff. Adding more reasons to use and interact with those subsystems as an engineer will increase the average shelf life of enjoyment people feel with the department in relation to what can be done versus some cheap attempt at adding value to power which will likely just bellyflop and end up in a state that satisfies no one

Even basic systems that work do suffer from being abhorrent to manage, such as construction and cabling/piping. It gets even worse towards new players as there is no ingame digital map for pipe/wire connections resulting in their inability to understand or effectively repair damages, adding an even greater cliff from a basic understanding to a deeper knowledge, despite the actual applied concept being simple in reality while appearing complicated

The other huge argument against building is that destroying enitre areas of the station takes seconds due to the prevalence of toxins heater/freezer maxcap guides and the proliferation of antagonists who have a method to destroy or ruin parts of the station by converting tiles to their antagonist faction while forcing 5+ minute deconstructions to disassemble their buildings so that a room is usable again, or buying cheap toxins bombs they can instantly detonate to destroy a department, whereas repairing it takes 10 minutes at the fastest with everyone working, ignoring repressurization and wiring/piping. Most rounds most engineers either do not work on repairs or die, making this less than possible

Stop trying to make engineering rnd

stop trying to make engineering cargo

You can add varying power sources but we already have those in the game as an option, merely locked behind cargo which always exist as an option. The AME works. You can still order the supermatter, singularity, and tesla. The solars exist as a purchasable item. But, honestly, the TEG is the only other engine that can fit the bill of the supermatter when it comes to modifiability and rewarding experimentation while also being braindead safe when it comes to a round ending aspect unless an experienced saboteur understands how to abuse atmospherics to their advantage

The only valid arguments for the singularity/tesla design wise are delusional nostalgia, lazy apathy in relation to just making the role a free hardsuit and gloves to greytide with after a 30 second setup, or a misguided view at thinking that the open endedness of the new engines is something that causes more harm than enabling creativity

any "borework" the supermatter gives you can be sidestepped by doing a basic setup and a solar array and running off to build or wiring in a few solars and any desires to make an even more elaborate crystal can be filled by wiring solars first

[Tokiko2]

I think that Molly's point shouldn't really be ignored. Complexity is not something that players actually want, it's just what coders and admins(read: players who played for a while already) believe what players want.

[Karp]

the way i reference depth is in an exploratory way that isn't forced or coerced, but rather is a product of people exploring and finding out and understanding new little things, though I get what point you're raising and what you're coming from. It may just be me not actually understanding what people want, but my circumstantial view on the line that a wide open canyon excavation style of exploration where players can willingly set their pace and how deep they want to go into the depth and meat of the systems is something people would actually want.

Though this can't really be decided without a player poll due to the nature of the question, as has been displayed multiple times in which the loudest people tend to be the biggest minority in gamepolls. Another issue that can be raised towards the statement is that design choices have been taken many times, against the wishes off the playerbase or even administration. Some have been taken for the health of the game long-term, while others have been arbitrarily added due to the desire of the coders/maintainers, but that's another can of beans to open.

[captain sawrge]

I think that Molly's point shouldn't really be ignored. Complexity is not something that players actually want, it's just what coders and admins(read: players who played for a while already) believe what players want.

All shallow gameplay does is lessen the replayability of the game. In a game where every round follows the same basic structure, there needs to be lots of small things to tool around with to keep people interested and invested.

The issue isn't that the engine is too simple or too complex or too safe or too explosive or not explosive enough, it's that power is largely a binary resource and it's the one thing engineers generate that actually matters. Construction is tedious and clunky and takes forever and usually isn't a viable resolution to large-scale structural damage. For this same reason, building projects are often difficult to finish before a round ends, and are generally pointless outside of personal fun anyway. Hacking and tiding only gets half the server to cry at you and meanwhile there's no real point to messing with the engine beyond the safe setup because you'll have enough power to last the round either way.

Ideally, there'd be some form of maintenance or otherwise setup that is engaging and interesting without feeling too much like a chore in order, or some form of trade-off between a high-power volatile engine or a low-power safe engine that will require auxiliary power or other methods.

I think it would be interesting to have smaller methods to generate small amounts of power to supplement safe SM setups should power management ever become a larger gameplay element, but as it stands it's just kind of pointless.

There's also the issue that for power management to work you'd need to find someone willing to figure out the power requirements for every machine on each map and balance them around average SM power outputs, which is a large enough task on its own barring anything else mentioned ITT.

[ohnopigeons]

Mechanically speaking the SM has far more depth than the singulo

The sole source of depth is its atmos mechanics. If an engineer wanted to work with atmos he'd fucking play atmos tech.

[ohnopigeons]

Yeah I'm really feeling that mechanical depth and superiority to the singulo.

[CPTANT]

Yeah I'm really feeling that mechanical depth and superiority to the singulo.

Probably got hit by lots of bullets or other objects in a short amount of time.

What is your problem with this? This is what happened to the sing every other round.

[CPTANT]

I think that Molly's point shouldn't really be ignored. Complexity is not something that players actually want, it's just what coders and admins(read: players who played for a while already) believe what players want.

But the complexity of the supermatter is almost completely optional. If you want to turn it on you just turn on the pumps, fill the collectors, set the air alarm to draft and then shoot the emitters.

And sabotage gives you the chance to fix what was broken if you know what to do, the chance you never got with the sing.

[ohnopigeons]

Probably got hit by lots of bullets or other objects in a short amount of time.

What is your problem with this? This is what happened to the sing every other round.

Because that's not what happened. The sing never got released from arbitrary unpredictable mechanics.

[CPTANT]

Probably got hit by lots of bullets or other objects in a short amount of time.

What is your problem with this? This is what happened to the sing every other round.

Because that's not what happened. The sing never got released from arbitrary unpredictable mechanics.

I don't know what happened to that engine and whether it was a fluke or if it was logical, but pretending the sing didn't get released all the time from stupid shit happening is just dishonest.

[ohnopigeons]

I don't know what happened to that engine and whether it was a fluke or if it was logical, but pretending the sing didn't get released all the time from stupid shit happening is just dishonest.

There is a difference between "stupid shit" and "arbitrary unpredictable mechanics", do I really need to have to spell it out for you?

[CPTANT]

I don't know what happened to that engine and whether it was a fluke or if it was logical, but pretending the sing didn't get released all the time from stupid shit happening is just dishonest.

There is a difference between "stupid shit" and "arbitrary unpredictable mechanics", do I really need to have to spell it out for you?

What arbitrary unpredictable mechanics? If it gets hot it delaminates, if it gets overpressurised it delaminates, if it gets hit by objects it delaminates.

If you pump in oxygen, plasma or CO2 it gets hot and powers up.

How fucking hard is it.

Do you think the sm exlodes more often than the sing got loose?