There is TOO MUCH "minor IC crime"

[Slignerd]

Recently every round is "rush all access" and "fuck the station over with all access". Alternatively just use thermite to expose command areas as a Chemist, or assault the HoP to loot their ID. That or swarm the Bridge or Brig and be a parts of a pseudo-rev crowd. Could also go about vaping lube as a hulk Geneticist.

All of this is regular occurrence, with security and command getting in trouble if they respond with solutions no more efficient than a slap on the wrist - especially with all access leak, anything short of execution, and prisoners can easily just released by other greyshitters. Then there's some idiotic officers who ramble on about "space law" and side with the ones who cause all that trouble in the first place.

It's starting to get unplayable. Roundtypes hardly even matter anymore - because in the end, greyshittery hijacks the entire round no matter the type. It feels like we went wrong somewhere, and "minor IC crime" is less of a one of two people breaking some regulations or getting in a fight and more of an unofficial antag that spawns every round.

[Armhulen]

Sec needs to git gud

Other than that this is a good change

[cedarbridge]

I've been giving this a lot of thought and here's where I'm coming down on it. As I and other admins have said, we're concerned about the logistics of just Rule 0'ing obnoxious players due to perceived player community backlash and a lack of transparency about what nets you a valid Rule 0 ban. Its sparcely applied because, where possible, we'd rather ban people for violating clear and concrete rules.

Does the playerbase as a whole want to see a rise in Rule 0 application? If the players clearly and loudly want this, I have no problem cracking my knuckles and letting people have it. Players are what drive the community here and the same applies to the sort of players we don't want here. I'm not going to ban anyone because they're personally disliked, even by a lot of players, but I'm willing to turn up the dial a bit on applying Rule 0 to general bad behavior as a matter of course.

Of course, I also don't write admin policy so I'm not the final word on anything.

[Slignerd]

Sec needs to git gud

Alright, let's assume security got good and has two/three of greyshitters detained in the Brig. What now?

Should it now be standard procedure to just execute them? Should they just be let off with a slap on the wrist? There's no two ways around it, the moment a greyshitter gets released, they just resume their earlier activities in unchanged manner - all that means is that you have to catch them again, while hearing reports of multiple others doing the exact same thing in the meantime. So how do you really handle it in a way that won't result in the round being permanently fucked and without admins getting mad at you?

Even when it comes to stuff like captain's spare - security has no access to it, so they can't exactly secure it. They should not have to constantly guard Teleporter Room or Bridge's east entrance, not unless we add a security post there. Yet when there were any suggestion regarding the spare, the response from people whose word on it was supposed to matter was just "lol nah". While we have constant attention to balance when it comes to antagonist, almost none of said attention is given to crew acting like antagonist on their own - instead, persistent abuse of station's vulnerabilities by non-antagonists is dismissed as "intended conflict".

[Fatal]

There's usually not enough sec to deal with this most of the time anyway because they're always outnumbered by the amount of shitters (wow filter)

I'd love to see some rule 0's thrown down on some of the worst kinds, there are some players who seem to only play to make life hard for heads / security and general provide nothing to the server beyond being a nuisance every round

The problem only seems to be getting worse too

[Lazengann]

Bring the pain Cedar, at least on the ones who go for all access every round and then PDA their metabuddies if they're in the game and distribute it.

[Cobby]

Gulag them [appropriate sentence], everytime. Brig is for the weak. If they come back, to perma they go!

If they do it round after round [assuming they are round after round nonantagonist],[ahelp first :^)] kill them on first offence. If people want to static name and admins [myself included] don't want to have the flak of dealing with them OOCly, just handle it ICly each time in conjunction with the rules [don't arrest them for only doing something the round before]. They will get tired of greytiding when they die on first offence with no saving grace from admins me.

I don't understand why we coddle players who do nothing but typically go assistant because F R E E, get bored because *gasp* they don't have any actual purpose, so they just resort to be dicks to people who have a job then complain to the admins they were killed.

[CPTANT]

Confiscate the all access, gulag, perma or execute repeated offenders.

There, problem solved IC.

[Lazengann]

Confiscate the all access, gulag, perma or execute repeated offenders.

There, problem solved IC.

Sure lets just set them to arrest--



oops he has a security metabuddy and I can't!!

[cedarbridge]

The other consideration that comes into this discussion and I believe it was mentioned in its sister thread is this: minor crimes and annoyances, even repeated and serial cases, add some level of conflict to the game that isn't merely "hunt the antags, gotem?, valids secured, call the shuttle." The problem that current policy has with this is making clear (without drawing dumb brightlines) what is acceptable and what amounts to mini-antaging to the point of being needlessly disruptive.

[onleavedontatme]

I've been giving this a lot of thought and here's where I'm coming down on it. As I and other admins have said, we're concerned about the logistics of just Rule 0'ing obnoxious players due to perceived player community backlash and a lack of transparency about what nets you a valid Rule 0 ban. Its sparcely applied because, where possible, we'd rather ban people for violating clear and concrete rules.

Does the playerbase as a whole want to see a rise in Rule 0 application? If the players clearly and loudly want this, I have no problem cracking my knuckles and letting people have it. Players are what drive the community here and the same applies to the sort of players we don't want here. I'm not going to ban anyone because they're personally disliked, even by a lot of players, but I'm willing to turn up the dial a bit on applying Rule 0 to general bad behavior as a matter of course.

Of course, I also don't write admin policy so I'm not the final word on anything.

Rule 0 bans should be left to the head admins. It will become a shitshow if ~40 people have the authority to permanently remove people who have not clearly broken rules.

Also: People are going to say they want more rule 0s because nobody is going to imagine it applying to them or their friends, but most people in this community probably have at least a few other people that consider them worthy of a rule 0 (me included).

This community has always had some serious cabin fever playing the same game with the same people day in and day out and people end up wanting each other removed.

I don't understand why we coddle players

It's hard to say no to someone who is upset when you could help them out instead, as much shit as I give admins lots of them are just trying to be helpful people (and others I think are just enforcing rules as written without considering why they're doing it).

[Lazengann]

I don't know why we're calling it rule 0 bans when rules 1 and 7 apply pretty well to the guys we're talking about.

[Qbopper]

I don't know why we're calling it rule 0 bans when rules 1 and 7 apply pretty well to the guys we're talking about.

because some people will try to argue that they aren't being a dick, and rule 7 is also debatable

rule 0 is the catchall "you technically haven't broken any rules/it's debatable but everyone wants you gone" ban reason (at least that's how I've interpreted it)

Rule 0 bans should be left to the head admins. It will become a shitshow if ~40 people have the authority to permanently remove people who have not clearly broken rules.

Also: People are going to say they want more rule 0s because nobody is going to imagine it applying to them or their friends, but most people in this community probably have at least a few other people that consider them worthy of a rule 0 (me included).

This community has always had some serious cabin fever playing the same game with the same people day in and day out and people end up wanting each other removed.

very valid point with headmins only being allowed to rule 0, that was one of the issues I mentioned in the other thread where it's incredibly difficult to nail down a hard policy for this sort of thing, and letting the admins ban people without them having broken rules is a very risky move

[captain sawrge]

There isn't enough actual gameplay to jobs to just force everyone to do them and take OOC action against people that don't

[cedarbridge]

There isn't enough actual gameplay to jobs to just force everyone to do them and take OOC action against people that don't

This is a poor justification for players bored of doing the jobs to amuse themselves by fucking with people who are not. The jobs are at least interesting enough that players who choose to ask these slots would like to be allowed to do them without some jerk earing up the place.

[captain sawrge]

Without player conflict there is no game

[confused rock]

>guy slaps you a few times
>hit him with a toolbox a few times
>he murders you in self defense
this can happen it happens to me it can happen to you

[Slignerd]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

[Lazengann]

Sawrge we are trying to get rid of the mime who hacks into the captain's office every round and spends all his time tasing security so he can steal their guns, we are not trying to ban crime

[DemonFiren]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

[cedarbridge]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

What would you say the purpose of antagonist roles is?

[DemonFiren]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

What would you say the purpose of antagonist olds is?

False assumption.

[cedarbridge]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

What would you say the purpose of antagonist olds is?

False assumption.

Its a false assumption that roles designed to antagonize the station and are given special protection in the rules for doing so should be the source of antagonist activity against the station?

[DemonFiren]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

What would you say the purpose of antagonist olds is?

False assumption.

Its a false assumption that roles designed to antagonize the station and are given special protection in the rules for doing so should be the source of antagonist activity against the station?

No.
Retry?

[cedarbridge]

That's why antag roles exist - let them bring the conflict without acting like mini-antag every roundstart.

>relying on antags to make the round fun

What would you say the purpose of antagonist olds is?

False assumption.

Its a false assumption that roles designed to antagonize the station and are given special protection in the rules for doing so should be the source of antagonist activity against the station?

No.
Retry?

Then say what you mean.

[bandit]

The problem is that people see griff as THE ONLY way to liven up the game. Yes, gameplay is somewhat shallow. That is where YOU come in. YES, YOU. Only YOU can prevent trash fires. There is a fuckton of material on the station to create interesting situations with; the only limit is your creativity.

For example: On Sibyl this morning, the captain decided to hold an auction of some captain items in the courtroom, and I spawned in some space cash so people would actually participate. There were about 5-10 people there at any given point. People were bidding constantly. Traitors got in on it -- the mime somehow went around mute-toxining a few people so they couldn't bid (although emotes worked, so idk man), and the traitor clown won the final bundle by buying traitor cash briefcases. Pretty fun. What would not have been fun, however, would be if a bunch of assistants went around shoving and toolboxing each other to death and smashing windows instead of bidding, or if a traitor decided to bomb it because lel easy valids.

tl;dr: If you're bored as assistant or whatever, think up something more interesting than griffing people. The admins may even help you with this*.

* Sometimes this involves TC trades. But I, personally, am much more likely to say no to dumb valid-begging like "make me revenant pls" than, again, something that contributes to creative and interesting situations in a round.

[PKPenguin321]

It's a "slig complains about all access" episode

Note how the OP body has a subject only tangentially related to this topic

As for this and the other thread just like it, this isn't really actionable, player behavior on a wide scale isn't something you can just snap your fingers and change unless we became a high RP server or something. Not sure what this thread actually wants to be done policy side

[cedarbridge]

The problem is that people see griff as THE ONLY way to liven up the game. Yes, gameplay is somewhat shallow. That is where YOU come in. YES, YOU. Only YOU can prevent trash fires. There is a fuckton of material on the station to create interesting situations with; the only limit is your creativity.

For example: On Sibyl this morning, the captain decided to hold an auction of some captain items in the courtroom, and I spawned in some space cash so people would actually participate. There were about 5-10 people there at any given point. People were bidding constantly. Traitors got in on it -- the mime somehow went around mute-toxining a few people so they couldn't bid (although emotes worked, so idk man), and the traitor clown won the final bundle by buying traitor cash briefcases. Pretty fun. What would not have been fun, however, would be if a bunch of assistants went around shoving and toolboxing each other to death and smashing windows instead of bidding, or if a traitor decided to bomb it because lel easy valids.

tl;dr: If you're bored as assistant or whatever, think up something more interesting than griffing people. The admins may even help you with this*.

* Sometimes this involves TC trades. But I, personally, am much more likely to say no to dumb valid-begging like "make me revenant pls" than, again, something that contributes to creative and interesting situations in a round.

Bandit knows more than anyone, but this extends to clowns. Our current crop of clowns don't tell jokes, don't attempt to be funny or raise morale. They settle for low-effort grief and "pranks" which mostly just amount to slip/strip/steal. Players should be looking for make interesting interactions for themselves and for other players. SS13 does not have a true "win" condition so players are meant to make their own fun. This carries with it at least a basic level of Rule 1's "don't be a dick" because we're all here to have fun together.

[onleavedontatme]

Our current crop of clowns

Clowns have always been like this. I mean I agree it's annoying, but I don't think they've changed much.

"don't be a dick" because we're all here to have fun together.

Except our entire game is structured around people having fun at the expense of others and finding acceptable times to be an asshole to each other.

And by structure I mean the game mode code itself, and our most enduring and most influential rule "antags can do literally anything they want for no reason at all"

[oranges]

Stop shitposting in the policy forum

ausops, joan, pk

would you fucking look after this forum it's a fucking embarassment

[Reece]

Apply flashbangs and buckshot to turds.

[cedarbridge]

Our current crop of clowns

Clowns have always been like this. I mean I agree it's annoying, but I don't think they've changed much.

"don't be a dick" because we're all here to have fun together.

Except our entire game is structured around people having fun at the expense of others and finding acceptable times to be an asshole to each other.

And by structure I mean the game mode code itself, and our most enduring and most influential rule "antags can do literally anything they want for no reason at all"

I might just have nostalgia goggles on but I remember we had quite a few clowns who were genuinely funny only a year or so ago.

To the second issue, I don't see that as a "the game is designed that way" and more of a server cultural thing. The game doesn't do anything to obligate people to be dicks to each other. Antagonists are antagonists and don't really fit the discussion as we're discussing this in the sense of non-antag crew interactions. Of course players expect antagonists to kill people and sabotage, etc. What they don't and probably shouldn't have to expect is Shit McGrey has arrived as an assistant and he's here to smash every window on the station because he likes the sound it makes. To the point made in the OP, players should not expect the clown to come strolling into their departments with the ID they stole at roundstart from the cap's office, steal everything not bolted down and disposal them for trying to stop him.

As has been said, the game gives players hundreds and thousands of tools for doing interesting and fun things that don't involve the sort of "lel graytiiide" mentality.

[Slignerd]

It's a "slig complains about all access" episode

It's "greytiders' favorite headadmin dismisses away discussion about greytiders" episode. We should probably just cut to the chase and have each Assistant spawn with all access to begin with, and then we can all nod to ourselves, as we finally brought sufficient amount of 'intended conflict' into the game.

[captain sawrge]

As has been said, the game gives players hundreds and thousands of tools for doing interesting and fun things that don't involve the sort of "lel graytiiide" mentality.

like what

[onleavedontatme]

Using those tools to do things is too time consuming vs the payoff (which is that you'll likely be ignored or shot by other players rather than have them play along). Trying to guard a maid cafe as the Warden and the Captain wanted me arrested (and then later jobbanned), and none of it panned out anyway because it was rev. Try to start a cult around flashlight eyes in a dark station with the command staff and the CE decides he's going to ignore the rest of the heads and replace all the lights (and then adminhelps when he is inevitably stopped).

Why spend 40 minutes building a room to finish it as the shuttle docks or have it all vaporized in an instant by someone at random? It's very very difficult to come up with a gimmick that will step on absolutely no toes at all and still be entertaining.

>antagonists are meant to antagonize

Sure, they often drive the story. But frequently they tell a very boring story, that we've all heard a thousand times before, and just kill literally everyone onboard over and over until we remove fun things from the code and they start doing it with something else.

Personally it's way more fun to deal with an angry assistant riot at the HoP line rather than to tab out for 20 minutes because someone is clicking on everyone with a double esword, even if the former is considered "grief" and the latter isn't.

[DemonFiren]

not only is slig a strawman

he's a MILITANT strawman

[PKPenguin321]

It's a "slig complains about all access" episode

It's "greytiders' favorite headadmin dismisses away discussion about greytiders" episode. We should probably just cut to the chase and have each Assistant spawn with all access to begin with, and then we can all nod to ourselves, as we finally brought sufficient amount of 'intended conflict' into the game.

thank you for proving my point


Somebody please answer this because I don't think this thread servers a purpose until it is answered:

As for this and the other thread just like it, this isn't really actionable, player behavior on a wide scale isn't something you can just snap your fingers and change unless we became a high RP server or something. Not sure what this thread actually wants to be done policy side

[Slignerd]

You brought up all access, I answered about all access. It's really not the only thing I brought up, however.

Alternatively just use thermite to expose command areas as a Chemist, or assault the HoP to loot their ID. That or swarm the Bridge or Brig and be a parts of a pseudo-rev crowd. Could also go about vaping lube as a hulk Geneticist.

One could add to this feats such as stealing all of armory - access just makes it easier, but in the end, it's how the crew is actually behaving that is the issue.

[cedarbridge]

As has been said, the game gives players hundreds and thousands of tools for doing interesting and fun things that don't involve the sort of "lel graytiiide" mentality.

like what

clothing
construction materials
food and drink
conveyor belts
crayons and crayon runes
vacant office space
pens, papers and dice
books
the chapel
cargo projects/station goals
space exploration parties
arcade machine prizes
bananas and bikehorns

The sky is the limit. There's a lot more to SS13 than clicking on mob sprites until they're horizontal.

If you meant "what is interesting that I can do"

build something
explore something
expand or redesign a room or part of a department
Play or organize a game of Micro d20 in the library/library back room
operate a shop
renovate a back room
find the whiteship, gather a crew and take it exploring

[PKPenguin321]

Somebody please answer this because I don't think this thread servers a purpose until it is answered:

As for this and the other thread just like it, this isn't really actionable, player behavior on a wide scale isn't something you can just snap your fingers and change unless we became a high RP server or something. Not sure what this thread actually wants to be done policy side

do it now or face my mighty lock

[captain sawrge]

As has been said, the game gives players hundreds and thousands of tools for doing interesting and fun things that don't involve the sort of "lel graytiiide" mentality.

like what

clothing
construction materials
food and drink
conveyor belts
crayons and crayon runes
vacant office space
pens, papers and dice
books
the chapel
cargo projects/station goals
space exploration parties
arcade machine prizes
bananas and bikehorns

The sky is the limit. There's a lot more to SS13 than clicking on mob sprites until they're horizontal.

see kor's post

[Slignerd]

We should probably just cut to the chase and have each Assistant spawn with all access to begin with, and then we can all nod to ourselves, as we finally brought sufficient amount of 'intended conflict' into the game.

not only is slig a strawman
he's a MILITANT strawman

I mean truth be told, it wouldn't actually change much, the way we are now. It would make the whole nightmare just start a little sooner.

As for this and the other thread just like it, this isn't really actionable, player behavior on a wide scale isn't something you can just snap your fingers and change unless we became a high RP server or something. Not sure what this thread actually wants to be done policy side

Somebody please answer this because I don't think this thread servers a purpose until it is answered.

do it now or face my mighty lock

Perhaps adjusting the rules to make repeated "griff-lite" a more severe offense, and encouraging admins to crack down on repeat offenders more often, in cases where aggressively shitty behavior is more common for someone than any other kind.

Make it enforced about as much as non-antag bombings or non-antag plasma flood - because quite frankly, when done regularly, it can be just as destructive. If not more. A griefer who just floods plasma or bombs the station fucks up a round up once and gets banned. A line-toer fucks up numerous rounds in a row every day, without an ounce of punishment.

[Reece]

Just kill them. Act shit get hit.

[Slignerd]

Just kill them. Act shit get hit.

One could argue it's not enough of a deterrent. Still. For that, we need to relax the leash on security and actually give it a greenlight it to kill them.

[PKPenguin321]

We should probably just cut to the chase and have each Assistant spawn with all access to begin with, and then we can all nod to ourselves, as we finally brought sufficient amount of 'intended conflict' into the game.

not only is slig a strawman
he's a MILITANT strawman

I mean truth be told, it wouldn't actually change much, the way we are now. It would make the whole nightmare just start a little sooner.

As for this and the other thread just like it, this isn't really actionable, player behavior on a wide scale isn't something you can just snap your fingers and change unless we became a high RP server or something. Not sure what this thread actually wants to be done policy side

Somebody please answer this because I don't think this thread servers a purpose until it is answered.

do it now or face my mighty lock

Perhaps adjusting the rules to make repeated "griff-lite" a more severe offense, and encouraging admins to crack down on repeat offenders more often, in cases where aggressively shitty behavior is more common for someone than any other kind.

Make it enforced about as much as non-antag bombings or non-antag plasma flood - because quite frankly, when done regularly, it can be just as destructive. If not more. A griefer who just floods plasma or bombs the station fucks up a round up once and gets banned. A line-toer fucks up numerous rounds in a row every day, without an ounce of punishment.

the verdict is no. thank you for the suggestion