Planetary Station """""design""""" document

[Armhulen]

Bottom post of the previous page:

it really is, i keep writing extremely large replies then giving up when there's 14 new posts

[Bombadil]

Frankly i think traitors not instantly sabotaging the engine every round would be fucking great. Balacing murderboners against escape is a good thing. Doesn't mean we won't get murderbone traitors but it will affect the narrative of the round greatly if a good portion of engineering is dead and they can't get enough power to the cloners.

[Luke Cox]

Frankly i think traitors not instantly sabotaging the engine every round would be fucking great. Balacing murderboners against escape is a good thing. Doesn't mean we won't get murderbone traitors but it will affect the narrative of the round greatly if a good portion of engineering is dead and they can't get enough power to the cloners.

We've already achieved this. Singulooses are fairly rare now, and we're in the middle of reworking power so that it becomes more intensive and engineering has to prioritize departments.

I'll do one long write-up of why this is a terrible idea that shouldn't be pursued later, as I don't have nearly as much time today as I did yesterday. I slept on it, and I still think this is a misguided attempt to solve non-problems. Nobody wants to go through 6 pages of arguing and shitposts, so I'll edit my first post on this thread with my summary for the convenience/sanity of readers.

[onleavedontatme]

I'm going to make a subforum for this since I think there are to many different topics contained in the OP to make for a readable thread.

[Luke Cox]

You're still operating under the massive assumption that the maintainers and MSO are even going to go for this. I'm telling you Kor, make a fork. You can do literally anything you want then. It's better for you too.

[onleavedontatme]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -286552903

So far I've only gotten yes, or "yes but I'd like to tweak this" in IRC from maintainers and the host, and the list of people who want to actively help is larger than any direct collaboration #coderbus has seen before, and still growing.

[Luke Cox]

Please assuage my fears at least a little bit by answering this: do you at least understand why some people are opposed to this? Do you intend to address the flaws that people have pointed out?

[onleavedontatme]

I am fully aware that there are design issues to be ironed out and that some number of people will complain and possibly even quit over this.

[PKPenguin321]

I'd like to clarify that I am actually really excited for this and really love the idea, I'm just worried it will come off as forced and overwrite too much of what we have. I hope the execution goes as smoothly as you see it in your head, Kor.

[Luke Cox]

I'm not against the idea of a station on a planet, but the biggest mistake by far is attempting to change the base dynamic of the game. Giving the entire crew a single objective they must complete to end the round is a terrible, terrible idea. PvE mobs around the station is fine and could even make for interesting dynamics, but making them attack the station in waves will turn them into the major antag every round. If you scale back some of the more radical ideas there's no reason this can't co-exist with the other maps.

[Haevacht]

tl;dr

Petition to ban luke "literally cannot stop sucking" cox from this thread, sign here: x______

Kor hit me up with a list of onmob sprites n shit.

[kevinz000]

Yeah we get it shitcurity players are illiterate

[Durkel]

I like the idea of a station/crashed landing map but I'm not keen on a corruption/lavaland tendril motif idea. I feel like it's always going to limit what the players can do because if they don't actually try they're going to lose. Which is fine itself, but there's going to be a disconnect between players who like to autism fort out and those who power game to fuck. Just making a station based a on crashed landing/abandoned outpost sounds rad enough and getting that going should be your starting point. Later you can have the idea of how they can escape, if even at all.

This is a big project and suggestion so we may like to have a absolute 100% concrete idea on the direction of everything.

[Luke Cox]

I like the idea of a station/crashed landing map but I'm not keen on a corruption/lavaland tendril motif idea. I feel like it's always going to limit what the players can do because if they don't actually try they're going to lose. Which is fine itself, but there's going to be a disconnect between players who like to autism fort out and those who power game to fuck. Just making a station based a on crashed landing/abandoned outpost sounds rad enough and getting that going should be your starting point. Later you can have the idea of how they can escape, if even at all.

This is a big project and suggestion so we may like to have a absolute 100% concrete idea on the direction of everything.

If this has to happen, this is the most sane way to do it. Start off with a new map set on a planet first. Personally I still think there are going to be issues, but if Kor is willing to ditch the gateway endgame and mob waves, I'll have way fewer gripes about this. If Kor insists on removing the shuttle, he can mess with that in another PR. If it defies all reason and manages to work, we can adapt it to Box/Meta/Delta

[imblyings]

kor was talking about the mobs/corruption being subject to a lot of tweaking, so it could range from normal random event threat levels, to levels that actually require crew cooperation and active participation

hashing out the sweet spot will be part of the whole design and implementation process, it's not really a design fault

[Luke Cox]

If PvE mobs exist, they absolutely cannot actively attack the station. Their role should be that of a hazard comparable to space outside of the station. Maybe the planet could have a BZ atmosphere too. That would be fun.

I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

[Armhulen]

kor was talking about the mobs/corruption being subject to a lot of tweaking, so it could range from normal random event threat levels, to levels that actually require crew cooperation and active participation

hashing out the sweet spot will be part of the whole design and implementation process, it's not really a design fault

different game modes would have different expansion, which would allow for meta but you have to walk right up to the mist for it so i dunno

[onleavedontatme]

Denial

If this is meant to be a total overhaul, the playerbase will never accept it.

Anger

I'm going to be blunt: I am seriously starting to doubt Kor's motivations behind this. It sounds like he doesn't like doing his job dealing with player conflict, so he just wants to rip it out. Plus I think lavaland being successful has completely gone to his head.

Bargaining

I'm not against the idea of a station on a planet, but ... If you scale back some of the more radical ideas there's no reason this can't co-exist with the other maps.

Soon comes grief and finally acceptance.

[onleavedontatme]

For a serious answer, Ausops explained it well already.

[MisterPerson]

I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

You keep saying this opinion without backing it up with any justification, which is which is why it's oh so easy to ignore you.

[Luke Cox]

I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

You keep saying this opinion without backing it up with any justification, which is which is why it's oh so easy to ignore you.

I've said it a billion times, but here we go again:

The reason why the gateway won't work is because it changes the fundamental progression of the round. Currently, SS13 acts as a sandbox game, with each player free to pursue what they find interesting. People are allowed to their own thing, and make their own fun. By introducing a mandatory goal that the crew must complete to end the round, everyone's focus is shifted to the single task of activating the gateway. The sandbox elements are thrown out in favor of a linear progression. There is also the issue of punishing antags for being antags, since they can't leave and win unless the gateway is activated. As someone else pointed out, it'll either be all out chaos straight away or 40 minutes of nothing followed by a grief fest at the gateway. Traitors greentexting asap and doing nothing for the rest of the round is already a problem, and this isn't going help it. There's also the issue of the gateway itself being rendered unreachable. The shuttle is the target of frequent attacks, but pods are a backup. No such case with the gateway.


Station on a planet with the typical progression is fine. Changing the core progression of the game is a terrible idea.

[Iatots]

We do need a specialized place to discuss more effectively, mostly because you can't really expect people to keep up with the discussion on half a dozen different media.
I only know space will be used for *something* because of 1 short post on the issue tracker.

[MisterPerson]

A high stakes finale is a feature, not a defect. If long-term area denial becomes OP, it can be nerfed. But how much long term area denial really exists anyway? Hot gas from a plasma fire? That's really about it. If bombs wind up being unfun, they can be nerfed too. But you can bomb the escape shuttle right now and achieve basically the same result, so I don't see how "antags can antagonize everyone" is a legitimate argument.

You're claiming progression is bad without really explaining why it's so badwrong. The current design is completely open-ended, but it's also extremely boring and creates issues designing interesting rounds because there's quite literally no structure or purpose to them at all. There's quite literally nothing for the crew to do besides hunt antags. Every job (besides mining) is completely meaningless besides fighting antags directly or being a prelude to getting better tools to fight antags.

Kor's design of the escape gateway is a placeholder anyway, so there's little to comment on to begin with. There's some designs I'd be for and many I'd be against, but it's impossible to know without seeing a more complete proposal. Antags being boring is a potential issue too, but again, it's something that could be mitigated in the design.

[Steelpoint]

At the end of it all this just more of a proof of concept.

Until we start to see a far more indepth and concrete design document, and in game implementations, then all we're doing is making suggestions and then rebuffing those suggestions, suggestions which may never even be included in a final produce of 'Planet Station 13'.

[onleavedontatme]

The sandbox elements are thrown out

No they're not

Currently, SS13 acts as a sandbox game, with each player free to pursue what they find interesting

No it doesn't. You have access to a handful of rooms on the map and a pretty limited number of actions you can do without admins banning you, security arresting you, or admins banning you when you don't let security arrest you.

Or the shuttle has been called in 20 minutes, or the antag has forcibly recruited you (again, with the threat of a ban to back up your compliance), or security has forcibly recruited you, or security has taken all your stuff to fight the antags and so on and so forth.

It has some open ended elements to it but it is far from a sandbox game.

Traitors greentexting asap and doing nothing for the rest of the round is already a problem, and this isn't going help it

It will help it though. If antags are being dull as hell I can go exploring or join a team to go burn down corruption nests or go build a hut in the woods or rig a disposal system to shoot glass at monsters trying to cross the bridge or build a line of turrets or raise an army of sentient carp to go to war against the monsters and so on and so forth.

If anything the game will become more sandbox because there will be some practical goals you can use all your creativity and toys on without getting banned for it.

[Wyzack]

Luke your problem here is that you are taking a HEAVILY idealized version of SS13 that does not really exist and comparing it to this horrible narrow opinion you have of Kor's idea that you for whatever fucking reason seem to think everyone should take as the gospel truth even though it is just some shitty conjecture on your part and then using this comparison as undeniable evidence that this thing you don't like will not work

[Durkel]

Instead of arguing/trolling Luke for another six pages, why don't we get some some ideas down instead?

What type of planet will it be? Jungle,arctic,desert,wasteland,or just a shitload of alien ruins?

How will mining be handled? Will they stay on the z-level or perhaps go underground via a lift?

A large part of survival is securing a food and water supply, any chance we can see a rework of those systems and perhaps include something like a need to purify water?

You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

[Wyzack]

I think it was mentioned some place that lavaland would remain largely as it is but as a subterranean level rather than a nearby planet

[kevinz000]

Luke is just worried he can't get his delicious valids feel as good when they aren't players don't worry.

[onleavedontatme]

Instead of arguing/trolling Luke for another six pages, why don't we get some some ideas down instead?

What type of planet will it be? Jungle,arctic,desert,wasteland,or just a shitload of alien ruins?

How will mining be handled? Will they stay on the z-level or perhaps go underground via a lift?

A large part of survival is securing a food and water supply, any chance we can see a rework of those systems and perhaps include something like a need to purify water?

You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

I've already answered most of these questions but I guess it's understandable they got missed because this thread is a mess.

1) Ausops started spriting a jungle, so I guess it's a jungle

2) Mining will be on lavaland, which will be underneath the station/jungle. Was thinking of using a shuttle (without transit) as an elevator as well for miners, and then maybe ladders elsewhere to get into "maint" below the station.

3) It wasn't on my to do list, but maybe one day.

4) I actually listed building a comms array from salvaging wreckage as an example of an alternate way off. Ideally there'd be several eventually, but I don't want to promise too much work at once.

[kevinz000]

Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

[imblyings]

Untitled.png (87.76 KiB) Viewed 20197 times

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

[Durkel]

Untitled.png

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

Looks good lad,Though I'm disappointed I'm not going to get watch spacemen fall through thin ice and freeze to death.

[Qbopper]

Untitled.png

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

this is exactly what I was picturing in my head when I was thinking of ideas holy shit

except the player was a human and not a lizard

[imblyings]

WHY would you send precious humans out into the jungle when you can send in a sacrificial ligger first instead???

[Jazaen]

Because of the famous "Finds cache of lost technology, defeats it's masters" cliche.

[onleavedontatme]

Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

You'll die of oxyloss and maybe being poisoned but probably not pressure

[Aloraydrel]

WHY would you send precious humans out into the jungle when you can send in a sacrificial ligger first instead???

Nah they just send in a fresh batch of emu mutants with tracking implants

[Jazaen]

Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

You'll die of oxyloss and maybe being poisoned but probably not pressure

I mean, if the multi-level ruins get implemented, you could make a point for them being hermetically sealed locations with way higher pressure, to limit time groundmens (great, now I have to switch from spessmens) can spend inside, and actually making robotics useful for exploration, left by yet another ancient civilization. That, and there is always some potential for this being a slow and painful execution method.

[Qbopper]

I forgot to mention that I'd be down to contribute mapping as well, but there's like 300 mappers already on board so if you don't need anymore then I guess you don't need anymore

[onleavedontatme]

We will likely need many mappers

[NikNakFlak]

As I told luke, I don't agree with this but they already look like they are actually doing it. GG, that's it.

[Qbopper]

We will likely need many mappers

Then yeah, sign me up

As I told luke, I don't agree with this but they already look like they are actually doing it. GG, that's it.

One guy starting to make content does not mean it's the end of the world

The idea could end up not working out after tests in game, the design is nowhere near final or comprehensive, etc.

[ThanatosRa]

It's an interesting idea, and while I'd grown attached to the "Classic" idea of SS13, I'd like to see where this goes. I'm afraid of change as well, but also Hopeful.

Also, if it fails, there's no reason that we couldn't go back to the old way. At all.

Provided the coders back up the codebase before the changes are implemented of course.

[MisterPerson]

The way git works, every single commit is a backup.

[TribeOfBeavers]

I don't really know if I like these changes or not, but I had some questions about them.


How does latejoining work with this? Do people just kinda spontaneously appear?

Are there still silicons?

How will this work with low populations? Will the difficulty scale down?

Is the exit portal like the escape shuttle where everyone has to be there at a specific moment to escape? Or is it open for a period of time?

Is there an equivalent to the "hijack" traitor objective?

Some items are only obtainable/restockable through cargo, will those become obtainable in some other way?


Also, I know a lot of people won't care, but how does this setting work with our (admittedly low) RP standards? Stuff like:

How long is the crew supposedly on the planet before the round starts?
How do admin Centcomm messages work?
What do we call the rounds IC? "Shift" doesn't really work.
How do we justify the ship crashing into the same planet every round?
Do we "remember" what happened in the last round?
Etc.

[onleavedontatme]

How does latejoining work with this? Do people just kinda spontaneously appear?

Waking up from a cryo pod.

Are there still silicons?

Yes

How will this work with low populations? Will the difficulty scale down?

Yes

Is the exit portal like the escape shuttle where everyone has to be there at a specific moment to escape? Or is it open for a period of time?

Period of time

Is there an equivalent to the "hijack" traitor objective?

I guess "make sure only badguys escape" would be codeable but very hard to complete so I'm not sure.

Some items are only obtainable/restockable through cargo, will those become obtainable in some other way?

Depends which items. Would probably be better to just make more things constructable.

How do admin Centcomm messages work?

Hopefully not

What do we call the rounds IC? "Shift" doesn't really work.

Good question

How do we justify the ship crashing into the same planet every round?

Ignore it the same way we ignore being nuked or eaten by Nar-sie every round. I'm rethinking the crash being the reason for no shuttle/comms for the sake of vague continuity though.

How long is the crew supposedly on the planet before the round starts?

I was thinking a few weeks. Long enough to settle in and set up. If we change away from having it be a crash though it could just be ambiguous like we have now.

Do we "remember" what happened in the last round?

That has always sort of been up to players and been dubiously canon at best

[captain sawrge]

How long do you envision having rounds go on for?

On the topic of hijack, maybe have some form of sabotaging the gate's construction so it only lets antags through or something. Or just "have less than x amount of people escape"

[TribeOfBeavers]

Thanks for answering!

If there are no centcomm message equivalents, how will admin events be run? Or will that no longer be a thing?

[Bombadil]

Yeah like uh how will deathsquads be run? I mean when there's a really bad murderboner i've seen admins bring in death squad if most of the crew is dead and theres like 5 survivors and the murderboner has the disk how is the round supposed to end?



Would deathsquad be monsters that seemingly hunt those with a great bloodlust?

[Luke Cox]

You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round, perhaps tied to each department. My number one concern about this is railroading, and that would go a long ways to alleviating it.

Luke is just worried he can't get his delicious valids feel as good when they aren't players don't worry.

Well meme'd, but it is somewhat true. Fighting players is a challenge, fighting mobs is a chore.

As I told luke, I don't agree with this but they already look like they are actually doing it. GG, that's it.

I realize too that this is happening whether it's a good idea or not. At this point, I think the most productive thing I can do is try to make sure that people have realistic ideas and expectations.