Remove the singularity in favour of the supermatter

[XDTM]

Bottom post of the previous page:

One of the main arguments for SM is standardizing it as an engine, so we can balance power and stuff around it. Making singulo/tesla easy to set up as an alternative would negate that, so it's better to leave it as a possible but hard to build option.

[ShadowDimentio]

The whole balancing thing is never gonna happen anyways. We had the singu as the only power option for years, and coders flat out never touched it. We'll get as far as adding this as the mandatory default option for things and then coders'll drop it like a hot rock and be right back to square numero uno.

[onleavedontatme]

The whole balancing thing is never gonna happen anyways.

But the rebalancing already started. The default engine setup is no longer the ideal. You actually get rewarded for better set ups. It's day 1 of the supermatter and it already has more depth than the singulo.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -282583761

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -282568425

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... de71aed464

[Oldman Robustin]

Can someone sum up how this engine works, as in what creates power v. what keeps it stable?

The others seemed pretty straightforward. Sing = Giant ball of radiation, bigger ball = more rads. Tesla = shocks coils for power, more balls = more shocking.


SM = Generates rads. More emitters might make more rads, air conditions inside the chamber make more or less rads but the relationship is totally unclear.

[D&B]

More beams more power but also more heat

[TribeOfBeavers]

So far I like this change.

Played a round last night where meteors destroyed the space cooling loop and the gas pipe from atmos to the engine. Frantically trying to find the problem and throw together a fix that would last until the shuttle arrived while the crystal slowly ticked up to 80% was a lot more fun than announcing the engine is loose over the radio and waiting for the shuttle to get there.

[Tokiko2]

Can someone sum up how this engine works, as in what creates power v. what keeps it stable?

The others seemed pretty straightforward. Sing = Giant ball of radiation, bigger ball = more rads. Tesla = shocks coils for power, more balls = more shocking.


SM = Generates rads. More emitters might make more rads, air conditions inside the chamber make more or less rads but the relationship is totally unclear.

Not completely accurate but probably the easiest to understand:

Power:
emitter beams increase energy
higher temperatures increase power
higher amounts of oxygen moles in a gas mix increase power
N2 moles reduce power increase of oxygen

Having the crystal in an environment with enough oxygen moles causes it to turn orange which makes the power generation less based on heat.

Instability(or damage):
emitter beams cause damage
higher temperatures cause damage
low temperatures reduce damage

Reminds me, I should update the guide with this information and correct some mistakes I made.

There's also atmos reactions inside the chamber and the pipes but I am not very good at that. Just keep in mind that the crystal releases oxygen and plasma depending on the amount of power it is producing, which in a oxygen setup tend to cause fires.

[Oldman Robustin]

Using the basic setup, i.e. what you start with + atmos loop, I was only getting 130k power without damaging the crystal.

[Tokiko2]

I can't say for sure what went wrong, but I assume that you forgot to fill up the plasma tanks before inserting them. That seems to produce around 120,000W if you use the setup on the wiki which is close to your number. Fully filling them results in 400,000W output.

[John_Oxford]

>implying all the oldfag CE's aren't just going to rip the SM out of its containment and shove it right where a singularity beacon would go

no fuck you i don't like change

[captain sawrge]

>implying all the oldfag CE's aren't just going to rip the SM out of its containment and shove it right where a singularity beacon would go

no fuck you i don't like change

Why would the oldfags who have done the singulo thousands of times not be interested in a new, more mechanically deep engine?

Why do people complain about stagnating gameplay and then put up such resistance to changes that add more depth?

[ShadowDimentio]

>implying all the oldfag CE's aren't just going to rip the SM out of its containment and shove it right where a singularity beacon would go

no fuck you i don't like change

Why would the oldfags who have done the singulo thousands of times not be interested in a new, more mechanically deep engine?

Why do people complain about stagnating gameplay and then put up such resistance to changes that add more depth?

Because instead of adding this as an addition the coders lit the other two legacy options on fire and said that anyone who wants power has to use the new system.

[onleavedontatme]

We know, you've said that before and we've told you why its happening. Repeating it isn't going to change our answer and avoiding our responses doesn't make them invalid either.

[Haevacht]

I'm not 100% sure but I think Dimentio doesn't like the coders.

[ShadowDimentio]

MY COVER'S BLOWN

[TehSteveo]

Give atmospheric technicians access to engine 2017 so they can hold the baby engineers hands.

[Oldman Robustin]

Give atmospheric technicians access to engine 2017 so they can hold the baby engineers hands.

This does raise a point. The engine is 100% atmos management, it feels kinda weird to have engineers doing atmos and atmos basically flipping a switch for their desired gas... and even that part isn't mandatory.


Also please replace the inner door with another r_glass window or at least have it bolted by default. It's just inviting assholes to roundstart suicide and irradiate engineering or low effort murdering/corpse disposal.

[rumblystubble]

Thirding giving atmos techs engine access. Also the gas to engine loop shouldn't piggyback off of the mix loop. Deltastation did it right.

[John_Oxford]

you know i wouldn't really be opposed to having a SM be a option.

i wouldn't be opposed to having it generate a singularity on melt down.

but -forcing- me to -only- use the sm and -removing- the singularity -forever- is only going to get a "fuck off" from me and loads of other people. if you want to change shit don't force people into doing what you would like them to do on the premise that your a coder.

the toolboxes for example. maybe change fucking syndicate toolbox sprites, maybe add closed and open states involving the sprites.

but flatline removing legacy sprites, as you seen, have only resulted in "burn the coders" being the forums theme.

[Armhulen]

>chief engineer gets to bluespace in the engine he wants to do

>lynched for picking antimatter

fixed literally all your problems, just make the engine area open space until the chief selects an engine

[onleavedontatme]

Okay but then he picks the singularity and the round ends in 10 minutes and we still have the problem.

Your choices aren't being made in a vacuum, the engine was negatively effecting the experience of 40-70 other people online a very significant number of rounds.

Quantity isn't quality, there is no point in including choices that ruin the round for the sake of choice.

[ShadowDimentio]

You really need to cite some actual facts about how often the singu gets out, 'cause I recall only having experienced it once every 15 or so rounds which isn't that many to the average player. It's just once you've gotten to your 3000th or so game /everything/ starts repeating.

Basically the singu getting out isn't as big of a problem as you think it is Kor.

[rumblystubble]

You really need to cite some actual facts about how often the singu gets out, 'cause I recall only having experienced it once every 15 or so rounds which isn't that many to the average player. It's just once you've gotten to your 3000th or so game /everything/ starts repeating.

Basically the singu getting out isn't as big of a problem as you think it is Kor.

The problems with it at least in my experience are this:

1)Uncreative engineering traitors who free it roundstart and don't even buy a beacon or anything
2)New engineers who rush to set it up without asking what to do and wind up freeing it

I remember a couple weeks ago there were something like ten rounds in a row where the singularity was freed roundstart.

[ShadowDimentio]

I'd bet you money it was one newbie engineer trying and failing to set up the engine, or one chucklefuck griefing.

[rumblystubble]

Probably but it really shouldn't be so easy to irredeemably fuck the round that early with so little effort.

[ShadowDimentio]

You can flood plasma by flipping like two pipes, bomb the station with three minutes of work, or release a virus with like 15.

There are plenty of grieftastic options, and all it takes is one admin to play GM for two seconds to fix.

[Screemonster]

you can't do those by complete fucking accident or incompetence though

[ShadowDimentio]

>Fucking with atmos pipes
>Accidentally cut on the plasma and distro loop pipes
>LYNCH THE ATMOS

>Fucking with toxins
>Accidentally flood plasma
>Alternatively, make a bomb with a signaller and forget to change the signal
>Someone pulses and you explode

>Fucking with viro
>Monkey infected with bad virus
>Monkey attacks you
>Run out of viro
>Monkey chases you out and breathes on the clown
>Clown bursts into flames

The singu is by far the most common though, you're right.

[rumblystubble]

Those things are all relatively easily fixed, too. With the singulo you're hoping mining did their job for BoH or a scientist can get lucky with a maxcap

[onleavedontatme]

You need to land like 3 successive bags of holding or maxcaps without the singularity eating anything in between hits, it just isn't realistic to stop.

[ShadowDimentio]

I liked the old days where one bag of holding would instakill a singu. Bring that back, not this.

[oranges]

the more you autistically sperg out and whine and threaten some kind of ancap NAP violation action by only using the other engines the more I just want to remove them completely to spite you.

[ShadowDimentio]

That'll learn me, a'yup.

[oranges]

probably not but I'll feel marginally better when reading this thread.

[onleavedontatme]

OOC: Armhulenn: >>>>>>>>>THAT SYNDIE WHO MADE ME THINK THE SUPERMATTER WAS GOING CRAZY
OOC: Armhulenn: INFINITE FUCK YOU.
OOC: ChippedIce: lol
OOC: KorPhaeron: did a fucking lavabase syndie immitate the supermatter
OOC: ChippedIce: maybe...
OOC: KorPhaeron: thats pretty amazing on the radio guys part wish I'd been there to watch it
OOC: Armhulenn: kor it was hell
OOC: Armhulenn: i vented the whole loop while it slowly counted to 100%
OOC: ChippedIce: they were panicking hardcore
OOC: Armhulenn: and then noticed the supermatter was saying not beeping

Already a superior engine

[Armhulen]

OOC: Armhulenn: >>>>>>>>>THAT SYNDIE WHO MADE ME THINK THE SUPERMATTER WAS GOING CRAZY
OOC: Armhulenn: INFINITE FUCK YOU.
OOC: ChippedIce: lol
OOC: KorPhaeron: did a fucking lavabase syndie immitate the supermatter
OOC: ChippedIce: maybe...
OOC: KorPhaeron: thats pretty amazing on the radio guys part wish I'd been there to watch it
OOC: Armhulenn: kor it was hell
OOC: Armhulenn: i vented the whole loop while it slowly counted to 100%
OOC: ChippedIce: they were panicking hardcore
OOC: Armhulenn: and then noticed the supermatter was saying not beeping

Already a superior engine

WE RESORTED TO EMPTYING FREON IN THERE

[DemonFiren]

And the first hearty kek of this week goes to...

[Arianya]

These are the kind of interactions that make SS13 fun.

The singulo equivelant of this is the Syndi Radio Operator going "SINGULOOSE" and Engineers going "No its not, I can see it from here."

[Screemonster]

Multi-keks were had.

[DemonFiren]

Multi-keks were had.

[Slignerd]

Also please replace the inner door with another r_glass window or at least have it bolted by default. It's just inviting assholes to roundstart suicide and irradiate engineering or low effort murdering/corpse disposal.

What do you mean smashing into the supermatter is not a valid suicide method

[iamgoofball]

Shadow operates on feelies alone, facts need not apply.

[Cobby]

If you get people irradiated with your suicide method you're probably get a bwoink [at least if I'm on]. It's not funny and if you don't want to play there's no need to hamper other people's ability to. Same with egrilles if people still use that to "suicide".

[danno]

shadowdimentio is the shame of our society

[Deitus]

i thought i'd just chime in with my completely irrelevant opinion that i personally think this is a good change and would like to see SM engine kept as the sole main engine, with secondary turbine/solars still possible as secondary sources of power.

[Screemonster]

The singulo would be cool as hell if it got an update 'cause right now it's pretty much only there because it's been there for years. Thematically, a barely-contained black hole is something that's hella neat.

Aside from the Event Horizon route, though, I dunno how best to go about that.


Having the singulo be a thing that just fucking grows and grows and grows if left unchecked rather than merely escaping and destroying turfs in a path might be something. Something that's stationary.
Basically - if it's enclosed in a containment field, it's fine. Just sits there spewing out radiation. Etc. Anything that's in the field with it gets pulled in and destroyed. Grows as normal.
If it's not enclosed in a containment field, it starts spreading its gravitational influence at an increasingly wide radius. Unanchored things first, then mobs, finally anchored stuff gets pulled to it. within a spreading radius, turfs start to get pulled in too. If it is enclosed in a field, the only things it can affect are the field gens themselves, and at a greatly reduced radius.

Basically turn it from "thing goes on an unstoppable rampage across the station" to "station starts collapsing in upon a single point while engineers desperately try to get another field up before it gets too big, or else try to block the escape arm off with a containment field to shield the crew long enough to get on the evac shuttle", with extra engineering for people building redundant containment fields so there's still a field surrounding it if the first one gets eaten, etc.

[rumblystubble]

words

That actually sounds really cool. You could even work some of the new gravgen mechanics into it.

[Luke Cox]

I'm liking the change so far. People need to git fucking good.

[darkpaladin109]

So far, it seems like it's barely gotten loose at all, at least on Sybil. I hope this changes in the future as people get used to it.

[Luke Cox]

I already have ideas on how to sabotage it next time I roll traitor. Fuck with the cooling loop and the station will have a very bad day. The big difference with sabotaging the SM engine is that you have to babysit it and kill anyone who tries to fix it. With singulo, it was just a matter of sabotaging the emitters and getting out.

[Armhulen]

it's not actually that hard to make it go boom. Just carry it away from the containment in a radsuit, and leave it in the hallways. nobody is going to get far when it comes to carrying it away because of heavy radiation (throw literally any object at it for big rad pulse) and then once they're on the ground you can just hurl them at it

additionally it's hilarious when you lube up the hallways and people slip n slide into it