[Saeg] People in the armory aren't valid?

[BeeSting12]

Byond account and character name: BeeSting12/Melanie Flowers
Admin: Saegrimr
Time incident occured: Around 10:30 am, EST.
Detailed summary: I start the round as assistant, grab tools/outfit/all that and ask to be promoted to sec. I became sec and then watch as the capt goes into the armory and steals ablative armor and the ion gun. I follow him to the AI core, where he is destroying equipment and stuff. I take him down with the warden and we put him in perma. Later, I arrest a roboticist for killing beepsky and having an EMP implant. Me and the warden try doing an implant removal, find out he has a macrobomb in him.(which admins might have put in just to mess with the TWO security officers. Seriously, its hard enough playing sec without admins doing that stuff.) Then a huge bomb goes off in the hall outside of medbay. Maybe the macrobomb, I had no idea. Warden was dead, I'm the only officer left. I find the capt outside of perma, so I take him back and execute him. There was a huge hole in the station, perma is accepted as an alt to execution, and I didn't have time to mess with him. The AI states that someone is in cloning, destroying the machines. RIGHT AFTER A HUGE BOMBING. I go in, arrest him, take him to perma. During this, a portal storm pops up and Syndicate commandos spawn in. I threaten to execute him, but don't because I hear armsky talking about something in the armory. I walk out of perma and find two engis, one dead being dragged by the other. The one dragging the dead engi has a combat shotty and riot shield. I attack him because that really doesn't look good to an officer that is under stress. Long story short, I get killed and ahelp it to see if its valid. All of a sudden, I'm being bomboarded for being shitcurity even though I was doing the best I could do. He said that the engi was allowed to go in the armory because of all the syndie commandos running around. The engi didn't even ask to go in, and his retaliation was valid. There was also "numerous executions" when I only did one, the capt. Ask me any questions you might have, because I'm sure I didn't put everything in the complaint. And maybe pull up the logs for that round too. Thanks for reading this.

[Misty]

Follow-up from Saeg's feedback thread:

Not quite complaint-worthy, but still pretty unprofessional:
Saegrimr made a decision a few people disagreed with (an officer tried to shoot someone breaking into the Armory while there was a portal storm; Saegrimr said the officer was valid, but some people disagreed, myself included). He also gave someone two macrobomb implants (the first was found by chance when Sec was searching the person for an EMP implant), which killed about five people. This isn't where the unprofessionalism comes from, though.
That part comes from the part where he OOC-mutes people who disagree with him; after asking to be unmuted, I'm given a fifteen-minute ban with the reason "Go take a piss break or something".

Truly, the paragon of professional courtesy, the standard to which all admins should be held.

Security policy says pretty explicitly that anyone entering, leaving or in the Armory can have lethal force used on them:

6. While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armoury, is in the armoury, or is leaving it

And for reference, the Captain was executed by Sec for trying to kill the AI almost dead-on roundstart (I was the AI; ghosted after the portal storm killed me, then watched the Brig shenanigans). The engineer with the combat shotgun and riot shield also had a taser, energy gun and flamethrower, and killed the other engineer after the other engi tried to disarm them. The Warden died to the explosion when Saeg gave someone two macrobomb implants (you found the first while looking for the EMP implant, so he added another after the surgery).

Being in the Armory without authorisation is grounds for arrest (and, if the Security player feels necessary, lethal force). Even if there's a station emergency, dragging around a dead body while having a bag full of guns is pretty suspicious, and fighting back against Sec is even more so.

[Steelpoint]

Anyone being in the armoury without authorization is free game for security to execute on the spot, even after they leave the armoury.

The Captain however has authority to go into the armoury, since he's in command of the station. However if he went beyond the pale in acting shit I don't think a perma sentence or whatever else would be a bad decision.

For anyone else, just being perma brigged for being in the armoury should be considered a blessing.

[Saegrimr]

Portal storm with syndies pouring into the station. Engineer goes and gets guns because the Warden is dead and the only other security member is busy trying to execute a naked man in perma.
Multiple people on the station are already wary of security, and don't really trust them anyway, which is part of the reason I even hopped on the server in the first place is to deal with ahelps about it.

PM: Saegrimr/(Bronte Fischer)->BeeSting12/(Melanie Flowers): I don't mean to be an asshole about it, but the events that happened during the round made the security team out to be less than stellar, and with a severe thread like syndicate boarding party its kind of expected the crew will want guns. I'm not saying that engineer wasn't valid for looting, but he also wasn't wrong in retaliation.
PM: BeeSting12/(Melanie Flowers)->Saegrimr/(Bronte Fischer): Well, we were under a lot of stress but I still think he should've asked. Either way, the round's over now. Still making a complaint because I want to get other admin's opinions on it.

[Steelpoint]

I'm not one to place too much pressure on a lone member of security during a high stress scenario.

In the context provided I can see justification on the Engineers part in getting into the armoury. However I lack any further information on if the Engineer made a attempt to ask for access, if the Engineer attempted to diffuse the situation, if the Security Officer asked the Engineer what they're doing or in fact any other relevant information to present a informed opinion.

[BeeSting12]

I'm not one to place too much pressure on a lone member of security during a high stress scenario.

In the context provided I can see justification on the Engineers part in getting into the armoury. However I lack any further information on if the Engineer made a attempt to ask for access, if the Engineer attempted to diffuse the situation, if the Security Officer asked the Engineer what they're doing or in fact any other relevant information to present a informed opinion.

The engi never asked to get in, that I saw. No, I didn't ask what he was doing with the guns. Last time I did that, I had my gut filled with lead by a gasmasked assistant.

[Saegrimr]

It was about three engineers to start with, I actually don't know how the one he was dragging around died but I assume it was because syndie mobs since he was trying to get him to medbay. Or where the third one ran off to.

[BeeSting12]

Pretty sure the second one attacked the first one while they were in the armory, but the first engi decided to heal him anyways.

[Shaps-cloud]

Massive syndie invasions via warp storm is pretty high on the list of RED ALERT things that would justify breaking into the armory. The "valid salad if you're in the armory" clause mostly applies to calm situations when nothing is going on and someone wants to break into the armory just to start conflict, getting into there because the station is being invaded by very well armed invaders is a pretty smart action for such a desperate situation. This feels completely like an IC issue: the syndicate commandos forced the engineer to seek shelter and armaments to protect themselves, you wandered in without perfect information and not knowing his intention and acted on gut instinct, he was afraid for his life and opened fire, end of story. I don't feel like this needs admin intervention

[onleavedontatme]

Just because you were right (he was suspicious looking) doesn't mean he's in the wrong (reacting to a crisis, defending himself when attacked). Limited information and the resulting misunderstandings/conflicts are a core part of the game (or they were at some point).

And leaving arguments about the engineer aside, I of all people am not going to deadmin an admin for being lenient or saying IC issue. Complaint isn't actionable. Take the pseudo ban requests to policy or the shed.

[Saegrimr]

To be fair I did go off on him about the round's shitcurity, although the Warden was more of a problem than him after looking closer at the logs. I still say that the engineer was not in the wrong here despite still being "technically valid".

[BeeSting12]

Kor's right, not really worth a deadmin or anything. Just needed to get out some salt about being killed by armory thieves and called shitcurity for attacking them in the first place.

[Saegrimr]

I meant that for the rest of the round's events, not specifically for shooting at the engineer but as I said it turns out the Warden was most of that shitcurity.

[onleavedontatme]

I think that's saeg's way of saying sorry.

Gonna go eat and then lock this when I get back unless something super exciting gets said while I'm gone.

[Varnesy]

In my opinion which is totally unbiased thanks to me not being fond of both of these players.
Bee is in the right here, There is a security precedent specifically stating that lethal force CAN be used on intruders entering, Leaving, Or stealing the armoury.
On the other hand Saeg only has moral justification, Yes there are Commandos flooding into portals to invade the station, But under no rule were the engineers allowed to raid the gunshack to arm themselves. Bee put up a worthwhile job as a sec officer and did what was expected of him.This is not worthy of a ban or a dedmin for Saeg.

TLDR: Saeg did not have a precedent or rule behind him that would make these engineers non-valid.Bee did everything expected.

[Zilenan91]

When there's syndies spawning everywhere and killing everything admins should honestly ban officers who attempt to stop people arming themselves at that point because that's super shit. Fuck the rules.

[Saegrimr]

There were no bans. Nobody got banned.
Raiding the armory as a nonantag without a good reason is shitty. Syndies spawning everywhere is kind of a good reason.

This is why i'm saying both parties made themselves valid, because:

Limited information and the resulting misunderstandings/conflicts are a core part of the game (or they were at some point).

[Varnesy]

When there's syndies spawning everywhere and killing everything admins should honestly ban officers who attempt to stop people arming themselves at that point because that's super shit. Fuck the rules.

Honestly stealing from a store and buying from a store are two very different things. Yes, There was justification for stealing from the armory.But there was nothing solid saying that they had immediate permission to commit grand theft and break and enter three times, and i'm pretty sure everyone could wait a minute for Bee to open the armory if he had access. (I was not in the round). Once again there should be no ban for security doing their jobs and no ban for Saeg. Or any other offending people, Holy shit is this sea salt or what.

[Falamazeer]

When there's syndies spawning everywhere and killing everything admins should honestly ban officers who attempt to stop people arming themselves at that point because that's super shit. Fuck the rules.

Not quiet a black and white issue brah.

Before the days of mulligan things were simpler, but these days an opened armory will have round long consequences, Let's say those three engineers and the rest of the crew finishes off the syndies, rebuilds medbay and everything is awesome again, Now you've created an unwinnable situation for security players, because every other crewman is actually one of the looting asshats that are at least as well armed as the officers if not more so. and there is exactly no chance that you're getting those guns back into the armory.

it's a rough balance between valid salad for stepping foot in the armory and allowing for crewmembers to suit up when the situation calls for it, and I think the current vague notions we're operating on are a little hard to judge by.

I'm not happy with the officer becoming a valid target for trying to keep the armory secure (His job) and being murdered by someone who clearly wanted to fight antags, but didn't decide to do it as an officer elser he would have picked one of the many open slots at round start.

Am I the only one who sees this as a little kill-bait-y to let yourself into the armory then murder the guy who wants to stop you in the name of self defense?

[Zilenan91]

That event can only occur like 50 minutes in what are you talking about

[Falamazeer]

That event can only occur like 50 minutes in what are you talking about

Literately the situation that happened bro, the story didn't end, just the officers part in it, we can assume the round went on without him, and the armory guns never made it back to the armory can't we?

and no, it doesn't take fifty minutes for the armory to get loose, are you kidding?

[Zilenan91]

The syndicate spam event occurs 50 minutes in.

[Saegrimr]

Shuttle was beyond point of recall at this time.

[Steelpoint]

This is not a black and white situation, the engineer had a good justification to go for the armoury. While the Officer also had justification to stop them if he pleased.

This is a non-issue, and is something you can't just rule on easily since its so heavily dependent on the circumstances and context.

[Lumbermancer]

Shall I assume the Engineer didn't announce the fact that he's taking weapons from armory? With something like "IM IN THE ARMORY TAKING GUNS TO DEAL WITH THE SYNDICATES"?

If not then that's his fault, and security did nothing wrong. As usual.

[Saegrimr]

Shall I assume the Engineer didn't announce the fact that he's taking weapons from armory? With something like "IM IN THE ARMORY TAKING GUNS TO DEAL WITH THE SYNDICATES"?

If not then that's his fault, and security did nothing wrong. As usual.

He did yell "EVERYBODY TO SEC, HANDING OUT GUNS" after the storm's announcement.

[BeeSting12]

Shall I assume the Engineer didn't announce the fact that he's taking weapons from armory? With something like "IM IN THE ARMORY TAKING GUNS TO DEAL WITH THE SYNDICATES"?

If not then that's his fault, and security did nothing wrong. As usual.

He did yell "EVERYBODY TO SEC, HANDING OUT GUNS" after the storm's announcement.

Wasn't paying attention to comms so I didn't see that.

[Saegrimr]

Well, that part is sort of irrelevant anyway. Just giving info to lumbermancer.

[DrPillzRedux]

I don't think people realize how easy it is to disguise as an op. Make a quick run to genetics, take some guys DNA, and wear his clothes no mask needed. I do it all the time as op.

Armory is to be defended during a portal storm. Only people who are let in and checked by sec should be safe.

[Zilenan91]

doesn't portal storm only spawn NPCs

[Saegrimr]

I don't think people realize how easy it is to disguise as an op. Make a quick run to genetics, take some guys DNA, and wear his clothes no mask needed. I do it all the time as op.

Armory is to be defended during a portal storm. Only people who are let in and checked by sec should be safe.

You mean the one and only sec officer on the station that was apparently an assistant starting out, that was currently busy with a guy in perma?

Fantastic idea.