Gangs, Security & Loyalty implants

[mercenaryblue]

Alright. Take the common gang round. There should be up to 3 gangs. Now, every gang can have up to three leaders. Each of them can spawn an implant breaker.
That's 6 to 9 possible source of implant breakers at any given time, that can be spawned for free. (15 points, no tag needed, they're given every few minutes).

Now, lets check security. They start with two box, and must order more. That's normal. Its fine.
But to deconvert a gangster, they must use two implants. If they don't, the dude they just deconverted will probably get pricked again.
Worst, they have no way to ensure the loyalty of their officers. With this many implant breakers on station, its far more easy to convert a sec officer to the cause than it would be in a revolution.
In short, security is fighting a losing battle. One implant should be enough to ensure loyalty, as intended. Even if they spend two implants, it'll get broken again anyway.

This thread is not a complaint. It is feedback. It present an inherent imbalance coded into the game mode.
The only sensible option here is to revert back to old-school implants. Why one implant isn't enough is beyond me.

[DemonFiren]

That's exactly the point.

Gang isn't sec vs gangs, it's gangs vs each other. Sec shouldn't meddle, and subversion exists so they can be prevented from meddling.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Subversion exists so they can be prevented from meddling.converted and used to steamroll the opposition

Corrected that for you.

I don't see any issues here though.

[mercenaryblue]

The gangs can kill each other just fine even old-school implants.

If sec is that much a threat, maybe they should gang up on them.

[DemonFiren]

And turn it into another standard-issue crew-vs-antag TDM?
No thanks.

Security should maybe stop trying to shut down antags that don't murder the crew.

[mercenaryblue]

Yeah, that's the thing. Without decent loyalty implants, the only thing left to sec is lethal and/or permabrig.

And they're both shitty options.

[DemonFiren]

So, overrun sec before they become problematic.

Or get away from the concept of valids.

[Steelpoint]

All well and good until the strategy comes down to implanting sec and securing the brig, then cargo.

Security just turns into a force multiplier for the first gang to convert them, assuming there's any officers to begin with. Security can sometimes come out on top but that's the exception to the rule.

I dislike that attitude simply because I feel telling Security players to fuck off is disheartening. Security can't just sit out of the conflict as you have people with illegal guns shooting anyone, and everyone, as well as brainwashing the crew AND trying to take over the station.

[DemonFiren]

Not sure about your average gang round, but the few I've played we were only retaliating against other gangers, nosy sec and validshitters.

[Cheimon]

Not sure about your average gang round, but the few I've played we were only retaliating against other gangers, nosy sec and validshitters.

But here's the thing, if gangs are going around shooting other gangs, killing people who stumble across them (nosy) and generally increasing the violence on the station, it's something security is sort-of obliged to try to stop. Short of giving gangs a way to play that doesn't eventually end in "kill our machine or we win the game and you lose", security will always need to get involved eventually. If security needs to get involved eventually, there's no in-game incentive for them to step back, or they're only handicapping themselves by letting the gangs grow unchecked.

I appreciate that a mode where security doesn't care about the antags sounds interesting, but it's not how gang mechanically works at the moment. Security players certainly feel forced into trying to be a less-lethal 4th gang, or else they die.

I think some sort of mechanical solution is needed above and beyond people wringing their hands and wishing security wouldn't play this way.

[Tornadium]

And turn it into another standard-issue crew-vs-antag TDM?
No thanks.

Security should maybe stop trying to shut down antags that don't murder the crew.

So your choices as sec are

- Do something early before the gang hits critical mass and you're suddenly fighting 20 people who up until that point didn't fuck with you but as soon as they have the numbers/confidence they certainly will

or

- Do nothing because "leave britney alone" and allow gang to hit critical mass because they ain't fucking with you. So you're basically just letting them reach critical mass to allow them to freely fuck with you.

I love how your brain works.

[mercenaryblue]

I dislike that attitude simply because I feel telling Security players to fuck off is disheartening. Security can't just sit out of the conflict as you have people with illegal guns shooting anyone, and everyone, as well as brainwashing the crew AND trying to take over the station.

This. Security is meant to keep the peace. Gangs will eventually break it.

[Shaps-cloud]

Most gang rounds I've played sec in have ended up being massive steamrolls because either one of the gang bosses or some hapless underling gets found out 10 seconds in spoiling the roundtype for everyone before the gangs can build up any base to work with, and sec just instantly starts tasing and implanting everyone they see which kkills the round. Maybe my experiences differ from other people's, but I don't think sec needs any buffs in gang

[onleavedontatme]

It's gotten to the point where I start releasing gang bosses if I catch them too early because the round is boring otherwise.

[Man_Shroom]

Gang conversion has been wrong from day one in my opinion.

You should be able to willingly join or unjoin any gang at any time, and the gang objectives should be altered into

1. Stay alive, keep your gang leader alive
2. Control as much turf as you can

This way, the gang isn't actually an antag that threatens the station with dominators, but a neutral faction that is not an enemy or ally of Nanotrasen.

EDIT: Stealing an idea from GOON as is so popular lately: http://wiki.ss13.co/Gang

In essence, a gang leader plops down his locker and people walk up to it to convert to it, which equips the gang clothes onto them. You gotta keep these on. You can also DECONVERT back to a station-aligned crewman at any time using the same locker, and after that, you can join a different gang. All the conversions are ENTIRELY optional and willing, so loyalty implants are kindof useless since there is no brainwashing involved like there is in cult, current gang, or rev.

Gangs have randomized names and tags and all kinds of silly fluff stuff. Security treats the gangmembers like very motivated crewmen, and each gang is held accountable in different ways. If WORLD'S GREATEST BUDDIES gang is killing people, then you can blow them out hardcore. If TUNNEL SNAKES are assisting medbay and just smoking weed, leave them alone. If BADMIN BUSTAS are only converting science staff and doing their jobs as scientists still, they're cool. If SMITTY'S TOPHAT CREW have spawned their locker in arrivals and are flooding converts, keep an eye on them.

[Wyzack]

Gang conversion has been wrong from day one in my opinion.

You should be able to willingly join or unjoin any gang at any time, and the gang objectives should be altered into

1. Stay alive, keep your gang leader alive
2. Control as much turf as you can

This way, the gang isn't actually an antag that threatens the station with dominators, but a neutral faction that is not an enemy or ally of Nanotrasen.

This is actually a really good idea, and more or less what i hoped the mode would be. This also might let us have real life style gang conflicts

[lumipharon]

The problem that this (and other modes) tends to boil down to, is the simple fact that people can't oppose you if they're dead.

Yes I can try and hold and convert everyone, or fight over every bit of turf.
Or I can do the logical, if less fun thing, and simply kill everyone I can't readily convert then conquer the station over their warm corpses.

Lots of games have this issue though - the most competetive/effective solution is frequently unhealthy for the game/ruins fun, but if you try do the FUN/intended way, you put yourself at a competetive advantage and get dunked by the powergamers. Which is even MORE unfun.

[Zilenan91]

Gang needs an update. It's just not a fun mode, and being a Gangster basically requires you to murderbone and kill lots of people to have any kind of success. Killing people isn't a bad thing necessarily but if you're FORCED to do it for a mode it's just not fun.

[Ikarrus]

imo, as Gang's designer

I'd try ditching the turf war aspect in favor of one of membership and influence.

It makes the game mode overly complicated and triggers security too much and too easily. It also tends toward a snowball effect that makes strong gangs even stronger.

Depower the gangs and make them more focused around stealth. Many of their weapons/abilities would only be unlocked after a dom starts. This should be the point where a gang goes from hiding in the shadows to declaring open warfare, not before.

also fuck RCDs, the dominator battles were fun before RCDs become ultra-common place and turned it into more of a hide-and-seek deal.

[lumipharon]

RCD's got buffed literally like 5 times, ON TOP OF getting added fucking everywhere.
These changes made absolutely zero sense, considering the supposedly logic behind them was 'construction is slow and shitty'.
You know what a great way to fix that problem is? FIX CONSTRUCTION, not sweep it under the rug and let people bypass all the mechanics with an RCD. (unless you don't have an RCD, in which case lel, enjoy your slow and shitty construction).

Gangs need much more incentive to drop a dom earlier, as ikarrus said. Early on gang was 10/10 fun when we had constant big fights over doms - those are pretty rare now, and usually only happen because a gang panic drops a dom, then gets dunked.

[Zilenan91]

Early gang was fun because it was new, since then Gang has changed little except for breakers not converting, which was a big deal since we had a shitty powergamer who would abuse that with slips.

[lumipharon]

It changed a lot.

Having a limit to dropping doms means if you fuck up, you basically lose the round.
Back when there was no limit, there was no risk in losing the dom itself, and if defended well it was a great way to force your enemies out of the woodwork or lose the round.

Also guns were cheap as shit - you're way more likely to have big gun battles when gangs can afford to arm everyone with uzis and shit.
Now days you only see mass uzi's once one gang has shat on everyone else and is just mopping up.

[Ikarrus]

It wasn't uzis

it was tommy guns

fuck what a disaster

[Zilenan91]

Don't tommy guns stun

[lumipharon]

Oh lawd, back when tommy's used the same rounds as c-20r's, THAT was broken as fuck.

[onleavedontatme]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/17568

Lets try and gather some very basic stats, such as the winrate, before we make sweeping changes to gang.

[lumipharon]

But it's not exclusively one or the other - it just tends to always be, one or the other.

Basically, once one group, be it a gang or sec, gain real momentum, they very rarely lose, barring a fuck up with a dom or a bomb fucking them all.
There's no real way to get back into the fight - once one group is strong, it becomes very hard to recruit (for sec also, as they run out implants), and that's typically the end for you.

That's why most rounds end with 40934785 people in one gang and like 3 people (all dead) in the other gangs - either that or sec steam roll then just an hour of ruthlessly hunting down any potential remanent gangsters.

[WarbossLincoln]

Not sure about your average gang round, but the few I've played we were only retaliating against other gangers, nosy sec and validshitters.

Nearly every gang round I've been in is like every rev round. Once there are like 10-15 of them they just murdebone every single person who isn't on their side. Gang bosses/lieutenants usually try to convert random scrubs mid-late round but regular gangers just kill everyone.

Most gang rounds I've played sec in have ended up being massive steamrolls because either one of the gang bosses or some hapless underling gets found out 10 seconds in spoiling the roundtype for everyone before the gangs can build up any base to work with, and sec just instantly starts tasing and implanting everyone they see which kkills the round. Maybe my experiences differ from other people's, but I don't think sec needs any buffs in gang

This is my experience too. Sec just takes over cargo and bucklecuffs the entire crew in rows until enough implants come in. Same with Rev. It's fucking lame. I like the idea of Goon Gang, but the issue with that is that sec is just going to act the same and murderbone all the gangers unless we make server rules over it. Then you're going to have sec officers getting bwoinked when some scrub ahelps and the officer doesn't deserve it, and them arguing flimsy excuses for killing gangers when they do deserve it.

[Cheimon]

Is it possible to record the length of an average gang round as well? Gang rounds tend to drag on for ages while the stalemate is uncertain, in my experience.

[Steelpoint]

Here's a screenshot of the round duration from the stats page here: http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/latest_stats.html#mode_gang_war



So from that stats page most gang rounds go from 40 to 60 minutes.