Detectives as antags

[Ezel]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Detectives should only be able to roll double agent tbh

[LordZalgo]

I stand by the idea of making the Det into a Private Eye that can be hired by any member of the crew. He names a price, and they bargain with him to get the dirt on someone without doing so themselves at risk of their own lives. This would include even Security, if they needed his unique outlook and set of skills.

[onleavedontatme]

and wonder how the concept of "security must never be antag" got so burned into the playerbase despite all logic.

/tg/ is not about paranoia anymore. It hurts, but we have to accept it. Some people play it for the team death match, some people for the job simulator/roleplay, but very few people want cloak and dagger and backstabbing.

We've gone very, very, very far from those roots. Everyone has team HUDs (including security!), there are simple, non lethal tests for almost every kind of antag (usually loyalty implants), and so on. It's easier to administrate when there is clear black and white valids.

EDIT: There is definitely way less greytiding and way more trust in security though. I can basically kill anyone as captain or security without anyone so much as blinking, and I've seen bans for people breaking too many windows. The old assistant mobs stealing everything you own and destroying the brig as soon as you try to arrest someone just don't happen anymore.

[bandit]

But the biggest issue with detective antag is probably going to be that someone thought it was a good idea to give a solo antag the option of an easy mode private traitor channel.

I agree, but that's off-topic.

/tg/ is not about paranoia anymore. It hurts, but we have to accept it. Some people play it for the team death match, some people for the job simulator/roleplay, but very few people want cloak and dagger and backstabbing.

We've gone very, very, very far from those roots. Everyone has team HUDs (including security!), there are simple, non lethal tests for almost every kind of antag (usually loyalty implants), and so on. It's easier to administrate when there is clear black and white valids.

All of these were done by game changes, mostly code/config changes. Fortunately, this means they can also be undone, if gradually.

[onleavedontatme]

It's a culture/community thing as well. There is little to no desire for that to come back. We've waited too long.

Very first thing STP tried to do as headmin (at my request) was hold a vote for bringing back sec antag, and people overwhelmingly voted against it.

[Malkevin]

Main problem with paranoia is that we have rules that basically mean if you're wrong you get banned.

Then again, looking at lifeweb we can see quite often there's serial killers butchering people in the street to make totems and everyones walking by not giving a shit.

[Wyzack]

Seriously this game is ruined by people who take it too seriously and cry whenever they die/get inconvenienced. There is really no way to fix this.

[Zilenan91]

What if the headmins have a vote for greytiding? It would be a very very good thing if admins were more lenient on it to an extent, meaning that people can do basically anything to someone that isn't stripping them naked or killing them. Would make rounds more interesting if people were just there to fuck with you.

[onleavedontatme]

Seriously this game is ruined by people who take it too seriously and cry whenever they die/get inconvenienced. There is really no way to fix this.

Yeah. We removed the paranoia because it killed people at the same time we cracked down on metafriending (because it interferes with paranoia/the game), and tossing out grief/shennanigans because it intereferes with the former two. Maybe I'm just hitting the burnout stage of the ss13 cycle, but it seems like our rules are trending towards enforcing blandness. I guess bland playstyles are easier to referee.

[yackemflam]

Wait, I thought greytiding is allowed just don't murder/incapacitate people if caught.

Once every few rounds or so I just be a total dick, breaking into rooms, stealing shit, punch the clown, etc.
If I get caught by sec I just take the punishment, usually perma.
Then I ghost and watch what happening in the big picture or draw or some shit.

IMO the game should be a bit more lax on what happens.

[TheNightingale]

I'd say the opposite - breaking into places and stealing stuff should be discouraged unless there's no other option. Do you need a toolbelt? Don't break into Engineering and take one; check aux tool storage, then ask an Engineer, "Hey, do you have any spare toolbelts?". If they say no, ask someone else.
It might be more fun for you to take the direct approach, but remember, SS13 is (in theory) a workplace; why are you damaging NT's property? You might get fired for that.

Someone slipping you and stealing your shoes is okay if they're a clown, but messing with people for the sake of messing with people isn't cool. If you want to antagonise others, why not wait until you're an antagonist? They exist for a reason, after all, and that reason is to make the round interesting for everyone else through creative use of antagonism. When non-antagonists start doing sketchy things like stealing fire axes and using them to smash into {insert department here}, that blurs the line between "acceptable" and "not acceptable".

If you have a good reason to do something greytidey, then it doesn't count as a greytide. If you commit a crime, get arrested and have your stunprod taken, you caused that - not just by committing the crime, but by having the stunprod - and so you can't escalate that, since you started it. You can't disarm someone FNR, then knife them when they punch you; even punching them back would be sketchy unless they punched you a few times.

Spoiler:

Let's say a fellow miner stole all your points from the ore box. Do you:
A) Carry on mining, then steal their ore and cash it in when you can
B) Inform them of the mistake, then ask them to give you a few point cards
C) Tell the QM or HoP and ask for compensation
D) Slip them, take their ID, and spend it on stuff for you
E) Wait until they're back on the asteroid, then gun them down with a KA

Of these, D and E are clearly the more extreme options. If you want your points back, the most sensible option would be B here - ask them to give the points back. If they do so, then there's no problem, is there? If they don't, you know option B isn't working. You don't lose anything by asking them for your points back. What do you try next? Most people would escalate to something higher here, yes - but do you tell your supervisor, take your points back by force, or shoot your adversary?
If you chose 'E' here, you're doing it wrong. Don't do that.
Let's go with C - tell the HoP or QM. They arrange a scheme to get the other miner's ID (in the guise of upgrading it), and will give the points to you. Problem solved! But what if there isn't a supervisor, or they don't care? You could involve Security if you like, but they probably have better things to do. So you take matters into your own hands.
You choose 'D' - to slip the other miner, take their ID and give yourself the points. You do so, and it goes off without a hitch. Here's the critical part - you then return the ID. Yes, you put yourself at risk of retaliation by not shooting the other miner, but they have no right to escalate a situation they started. If they attack you after this, deal with them (if you can), then adminhelp it, because that's probably not acceptable unless they're an antagonist (note that you might not find out if the incident was valid or not!).

If you skipped straight to 'E', you're doing it very wrong. If you skipped straight to 'D', you're still doing it wrong - attempt a peaceful resolution before applying force. That applies to wanting gear from R&D, a clown who stole your mime mask, or any other situation. If negotiations are available, take that option first.

Clearly, an antagonist could choose to do D or E from the start here. E would be a little excessive without asking for the points back first, but it'd be allowed.

TL;DR leave the antagonising to the antagonists, try the polite route when it's available, and don't escalate a situation you started.

[Cheimon]

Wait, I thought greytiding is allowed just don't murder/incapacitate people if caught.

Once every few rounds or so I just be a total dick, breaking into rooms, stealing shit, punch the clown, etc.
If I get caught by sec I just take the punishment, usually perma.
Then I ghost and watch what happening in the big picture or draw or some shit.

IMO the game should be a bit more lax on what happens.

This (being a dick) is really the problem. If you're not actually making it fun for anyone else, it's not a good thing to do. There are lots of ways to have fun that allow other people to enjoy it too, but purposeless tiding isn't entertaining or valuable to others.

[Lumbermancer]

No one has provided a good rationale against detective antag

Because it's not fun for anyone but Detective. He needs to be decoupled from Security if he is to remain an antag.

[Malkevin]

snip[

But E is negative feedback on someone being a shit, if they're being a bellend and not only don't get away with it but also get a time out then they'll learn to not be such a cock warbler in future.

[Ezel]

Hello?

MAKE DETECTIVES ONLY ABLE TO ROLL DOUBLE AGENT

BECAUSE IM SURE GETTING SICK OF HOLO SLEEPING CARP DETECTIVES WHICH CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT

[Incomptinence]

What's wrong with people being able to do what they want?

All those sec wish they were antag and could crack your civvie skull please share the love criminal scum.

[Steelpoint]

I'm sure Sec can already be antagonists....

They just get placed into a non-sec role beforehand.

Allegedly anyway.

[Lumbermancer]

You just need to frisk new recrutees, you'd be surprised how many wanna be tator-sec doesn't think it through.

[CPTANT]

Detective being antag just feels weird. None of the other round start implanted roles can be antag and ONLY the implanted roles can't be antag.

If Detective is to be an antag he should lose the implant.

[Lumbermancer]

Consider HoP. He can be antag. And on paper he would be the most powerful of them all, and while it's usually easy for him to accomplish objectives, he is not super scary. That's because Security won't take shit from HoP and let him boss them around, and good HoS and Captain will keep HoP in check.

Detective is inherently loyal as part of the security, and being loyally implanted. Simply removing the implant would go a long way.

[onleavedontatme]

Detective is inherently loyal as part of the security, and being loyally implanted.

This is what I mean when I say "paranoia is dead and you guys happily killed it."

[Lumbermancer]

Game mechanics should be consistent. Paranoia should not be contrived.

Paranoia was killed by prevalence of deathmatch modes and meme antags.

[onleavedontatme]

Game mechanics should be consistent. Paranoia should not be contrived.

Paranoia was killed by prevalence of deathmatch modes and meme antags.

>game mechanics should be consistent

True, bring back traitor sec.

>Paranoia should not be contrived

"I can't trust this player but I need to work with him" is pretty much the least contrived source of paranoia possible in a videogame.

>deathmatch modes

The biggest contributor to this is security.

-Team HUD
-100% loyalty
-Tons of guns and access
-Boxes upon boxes of antag tests
-Rock solid conversion of enemy team members

And their entire fucking job is to do nothing but run in circles looking for badguys, then murdering the shit out of them with their arsenal.

Which means, in turn, the antags have to be balanced around fighting these guys head on, since there is zero chance of you talking your way out of anything or tricking people. Of course there is no subtlety or misdirection when you have an entire department that is 100% trustworthy and dedicated to hunting down those who aren't.

Every mode is TDM because the biggest offender design wise, security, is in every round (other than low pop obviously).

[Lumbermancer]

True, bring back traitor sec.

By all means.

"I can't trust this player but I need to work with him" is pretty much the least contrived source of paranoia possible in a videogame.

No, it's "I can trust this security player but I can't trust that other security player because of arbitrary reasons." Bring back traitor sec, problem solved.

And their entire fucking job is to do nothing but run in circles looking for badguys, then murdering the shit out of them with their arsenal.

Right, but in some modes (traitor, traitor+changeling - the best modes) badguys are less defined and less predictable, making everyone more susceptible to paranoia. Paranoia happens when it's not us vs them, red vs blue.

[WarbossLincoln]

Seriously, I read shit like this:

every HoS would be better off just stunning the dude, jacking his gun, ID, radio, and forensic scanner and telling him to fuck off since you're not allowed to trust him anymore.

and wonder how the concept of "security must never be antag" got so burned into the playerbase despite all logic. No one is keeping you from trusting the detective except metaknowledge.

There's also the fact that even though Sec can't be antags(minus detective right now), they still need an ass kicking sometimes. You should never trust someone at face value just because they have a loyalty implant. Behind every spessman is a real person and a lot of the suck. That's why we have the rule "act like an antag, get treated like an antag". A sec officer might not be a real antag but if he's acting like an asshat sec needs to deal with him.

I think we should bring back antag to all sec roles. And captain.

[Steelpoint]

Have any of you considered that maybe the reason the game does not offer much paranoia now days is not due to a change in game play mechanics but due to you playing the game for so long that there's really nothing that can edge you on anymore in this game?

You can only get so much more out of a game you've put hundreds to thousands of hours into, not to mention when people like Kor are also apart of the development """team""" of the game and code in features, and have good knowledge of the code of the game, which further kills off any possible paranoia.

Just because something is certain (like security not being antags) does not instantly mean the game loses 95% of any paranoia it has. I point to games like Trouble in Terrorist Town where even though you know who the Detectives (security) are, the game still evokes paranoia and suspicion.

Finally, the Detective either needs to regain his antag immunity, or he needs to lose his loyalty implant. Its a inane, stupid and overlooked inconsistency that someone with a round start loyalty implant can be made a round start antagonists.

[Malkevin]

You just need to frisk new recrutees, you'd be surprised how many wanna be tator-sec doesn't think it through.

And don't give them a loyalty implant until rev/gang/etc pokes its head up.

And remember their sec record picture doesn't update when their job is changed.

[CPTANT]

The answer to predictabillity is datum antags and having most antags be able to appear in any gamemode.

[Scott]

Consider HoP. He can be antag. And on paper he would be the most powerful of them all, and while it's usually easy for him to accomplish objectives, he is not super scary. That's because Security won't take shit from HoP and let him boss them around, and good HoS and Captain will keep HoP in check.

Detective is inherently loyal as part of the security, and being loyally implanted. Simply removing the implant would go a long way.

Not going to happen because all that would result is the Warden/HoS implanting the security at roundstart every round.

Don't even pretend that is not true.

[Malkevin]

Let me reiterate a point I've made numerous times:

If you think loyalty implants stop someone being a traitor you are a fucking moron.

[Scott]

They prevent team antag conversions such as rev and cult.

[Lumbermancer]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

[Malkevin]

Which are more often than not loud as a fuck, once you hear cries of flashing or constructs thats when you stun+cuff+implant anyone you've let into security.

[bandit]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

[Zilenan91]

You wanna know how I think paranoia really died? Reduction in lethality. This is what Lifeweb does that makes it so, so appealing, if you die, you fucking DIE. You cannot ever hope to disarm a Cerberus and kill him with his own weapon like you can here, he'll fucking chop you in half and use your ass as an onahole any day of the week. There's a sense of finality and climax to it whereas here it's just TASE LASE LASE LASE LASE LASE LASE LASE oh hey you're dead welcome to deadchat. If things were unilaterally more lethal the game would be way more fun. This is why we did the 30% more weapon damage test. It made it so people actually died rather than be floored for 20 seconds getting whacked on by a stunbaton until they finally fell into crit. This is also why I really wholeheartedly support security having lethal sidearms, it would make the game way more lethal because people could get ahold of them and combat wouldn't just be taser > everything, antags could use their shit to kill a dude then they could do whatever from there if they feel like murderboning, which would likely fall out of favor due to the extra lethality, with traitors hopefully doing actually different things with their rounds rather than a holo and an emag.

Also as for deputizing fuck that because combat in this game is at its worst when both parties have tasers. If the person you deputized is just going to use it as a free ticket to murderbone and make the round more boring at the sheer blandness of it then there's literally no reason to ever do it. You're actively making the game worse.

[Xhagi]

My only run in with antag detective was when I was being a piece of shit as a mime and laid out a puddle of water, slipped a det on it and hit him with a toy esword after popping out a locker next to the puddle. He promptly shot and cuffed me, dragged me to maint and absorbed me because he was a ling.

Justice at it's finest, would die to again.

Most the time I don't trust security anyway so really sec antag doesn't bother me. A misunderstanding with security is more just as likely to get you killed as much as any other antag.

[Lumbermancer]

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

Why is it that the most judgmental people don't even play security.

[bandit]

I play security and HoS at that, a lot less lately since I became an admin but it's still in my rotation of jobs.

[Malkevin]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

The problem is anyone that wants to be a deputy but didn't choose sec at round start is 90% likely to be a traitor

[Xhagi]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

The problem is anyone that wants to be a deputy but didn't choose sec at round start is 90% likely to be a traitor

Nice meta.

[Lumbermancer]

Nice meta.

Right on cue.

[Zilenan91]

>wanting someone with tasers a holo and the entire armory to kill E V E R Y O N E every round

[Lumbermancer]

Bad Zilenan. Not enabling murderboner is part of the problem, the reason why there's no paranoia anymore.

[Zilenan91]

Not enabling murderboning is a good thing because it isn't "fun" for anyone else but the person doing the murdering. It's a terrible feature because combat just isn't fun or in any way satisfying when all it is is a big point and click adventure when someone has tasers and the whole armory on them. There's zero paranoia to getting tased and punched to death by a holoparasite, it's just frustration because of how long rounds last.

[Gamarr]

Then he shouldn't have antag status!

Either all of Security (barring HoS) can be a traitor or none of them can.

Otherwise this is a inane inconsistency for the sake of someone wanting to play out their fantasies of being a rogue detective.

This is pretty much the bottom line. Its not intuitive that plainclothes cop with an pistol and baton round start should somehow also be a possible traitor while everything else on sec isn't. Go full ham with sec being antags or don't do it at all. There is no point to middle the line because once the trust that sec can't be antag is gone again, then it might as well be for the whole shebang (which they honestly shouldn't be instantly trusted for this meta reason anyway but that's a whole other pile of shit).

[Steelpoint]

Hell I'd do it but that would require me to redownload the code and set up git again due to my hard drive being corrupted a while ago.

Its still a issue that needs to be resolved, either all of security is a antag or none of them are.

The only exception should be the HoS, there should at least be one person who's guaranteed to be on the station's side.

[PKPenguin321]

"ohh noo muh inconsistencies! the game is ruuuuuuuuuinnnnnnnnnnnnned"

this has been in the game for weeks and ive both interacted with and played as the detective multiple times. it's pretty much the same as before except that occasionally you get a license to griff. not nearly as HORRIBLY GAME BREAKING REVERT REVERT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE as all the assblasted babies in this thread think it is

[Malkevin]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

The problem is anyone that wants to be a deputy but didn't choose sec at round start is 90% likely to be a traitor

Nice meta.

>fagmins not knowing the server's rules and precedents
>just the day as usual

[Steelpoint]

"ohh noo muh inconsistencies! the game is ruuuuuuuuuinnnnnnnnnnnnned"

this has been in the game for weeks and ive both interacted with and played as the detective multiple times. it's pretty much the same as before except that occasionally you get a license to griff. not nearly as HORRIBLY GAME BREAKING REVERT REVERT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE as all the assblasted babies in this thread think it is

If you want to act like a utter moron then that's your prerogative, but it is still a glaring inconsistency no matter how you want to negatively portray it.

[Steelpoint]

Also I put forward for anyone to present a real life scenario where a private security force deputized civilians, civilians with no ""experience"" in security procedures to shore up a lack of security personal?

Its more illogical and inane for a security force to recruit people in such short order than it is otherwise.

You don't see mall cops giving a baton and segway to a passerby because there's a 50% off sale at the major retailers and their understaffed. Or for the Secret Service, while under a threat of a assassination against the President of the United States, to give a gun and clearance to a civilian that was touring the White House by coincidence, and then act surprised when that civilian shoots the President.

[Cheimon]

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

If they didn't join up to play security, and suddenly want to, they're mostly either

(a) just there to go validhunting in maintenance

(b) there to get access to the high quality restraining equipment security provides, for malicious purposes

(c) too incompetent to sign up as security, so why would you want them

The rest of the people are already playing the jobs they got. Deputizing people picks from a limited pool. The people in that pool are less likely to be good officers.