Gouty - banbaiting stealing mech parts.

[J_Madison]

Your byond account: Akesson
Your character name: Doesn't matter
Their character name: Carlos Danger
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Gouty
Server and time: 21:50 GMT
Logs and/or screenshots: Are the logs public yet?
Description of what happened:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6190

Long round of mining (1 hour+), help get autocloner and other machines built.
Manage to get some stuff for a HONK mech.
Librarian with stolen access and stolen sec equipment breaks into robotics and starts to steal components for the mech.
Tell him to put it down.
He steals the rest of it and runs off.
I chase after him, he has a healing virus and is really fast.
He shoots me with a gun - lethal weapon that was stolen.
I catch up, kill him since I have no cuffs and he can run off.
Not at any time did he drop the stolen items.
I take my stuff back.
Find stolen IDs, guns, cablecuffs, stolen sec headset, assume he's a traitor
I notice he scanned himself in the autocloner that my hard work built.
Take back my hard work by killing him (since I thought he was antag).
I get banned and this guy doesn't even get a note.

Why they should be banned:
Banbaiting, ahelping when they get punished IC for stealing mech parts from someone's hour of work, past history of powergaming/metagaming/playing to fuck with other's rounds:

[lzimann]

I think it is worth to note the following things:
- You killed him twice, one was for stealing all your stuff and the other was right after he finished cloning(this one was uncalled for).
- "Past history of powergaming/metagaming". Both notes are from 2013 and no bad notes from this player ever since(and no bans aswell).

[TheNightingale]

An0n3 Amendment time; there's been some rules overlooked here.

Spoiler:

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
[...] Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists [...] Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

Stealing someone's mech parts is acting like a greytider, but when they have lethal ranged weapons, stolen IDs and stolen security gear, anyone would assume the person in question is an antag; even one of these would be suspicious, but the presence of all three indicates clear antagonistic intent. Either the Librarian was an antag here, and so their death was valid under Rule 4 "Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists", or they weren't, and they were breaking the rules, and so their death was valid under Rule 4 "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag".

Acts like stealing Security equipment (including lethal ranged weapons), IDs (which are essential to peoples' jobs) and hard-to-produce mech parts (HONK mechs require bananium, that doesn't grow on trees), or shooting people who try and stop you, or even just refusing to return items you've stolen from someone; these acts are all restricted to antagonists, purely because they're antagonistic acts.

Have a Rule 7 too:

7. If you regularly come close to breaking the rules without actually breaking them, it will be treated as the rules being broken.
Repeated instances of the same rules being broken may be met with harsher consequences. Baiting people into escalations or situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.

The Librarian started the conflict by stealing mech parts they couldn't even use (and so we can surmise that their reason is to create hostility, or... antagonism); the Librarian escalated the conflict by running away when requested to put the stolen gear down; and the Librarian escalated to the highest level (lethal) by shooting J_Madison's character with weapons they really shouldn't have in the first place. After the Librarian was dead, discovering further antagonist items on the body like Security gear or stolen IDs simply proved that the Librarian was either a hostile antagonist or a greytiding rulebreaker; both of which are acceptable to kill, as per the rules.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that stealing essential gear like IDs, guns and mech parts is against the first - and most important - rule too.

1. Don't be a dick.

[Incomptinence]

Depends on whether he had gear for non lethal restraint at the second kill.

Killing what you presume is a naked traitor is a bit nasty but even nudists can be threats

[J_Madison]

I don't keep restraints on my player; that's security's job.

It's not the nudist threat, but the threat that "do not use knowledge from your previous life" rule doesn't apply on tgstation meaning that they could effectively get auto cloned without my knowledge, get disguised and make stunprod-cuff then go about getting revenge. This would have also been extremely difficult to stop because he had a healing and speed virus.

The issue is, it's more than perfectly reasonable to believe a player that is so shit they'd ruin others experiences and bait them into valid escalation would use a second life opportunity to get revenge.

Also note throughout this chase he did not at any moment stop to drop the items he's stolen, thus meaning he wanted to chase and pulling out a lethal shotgun and shooting me is a clear sign he had no intention of letting go of those stolen items without dying.

In addition to this he knew he would be auto cloned and could get revenge, if he were killed by someone.

And Nik, I'd request you not almost exclusively delete "opinions" that support my side.

Edit: in addition to all of this, I'd like to mention I did Ahelp when the items were stolen, and was given no help and a reply that was essentially "tough luck Gitgud" in terms of advice. This is what caused a slight delay before I chased him down.

[CPTANT]

How does rule 4 not apply if he was trying to shoot J_maddison first with lethal weapons and all the other circumstantial shit?

[NikNakFlak]

Sorry I meant that the other portion of rule 4 doesn't apply (the stuff about antags doing what they want). That single sentence mentioned does apply and that is what is up for debate. I've undeleted the post but some things aren't as clear cut as you think. The guy had a reason which was something like getting the captains permission for the honk or something. The notes he has are from 2013 and we don't actually even know if the stuff or access he had was stolen or if he got them legitimately. Unless I am also missing something here.

[J_Madison]

He was a librarian, he had no right to start stealing and intentionally fucking with another's experience because "lol u gots to see the capten". If it were a sec officer fair enough, but this is simply shittery and finding an opportunity to disrupt another's round.

The stuff I can almost garuantee is stolen because none of those IDs were his and he kept those stolen items hidden rather than worn.

[Davidchan]

Act like and antag, get treated like an antag. Some looting the entire station and using lethal force to do it? If medical reported that a violent antag just popped out of the cloner you can bet security would cave his skull in and burn the body.

[Tornadium]

Plus it's not like he went out of his way after someone had spent time cloning him. It was an autocloner that J-Mad set up himself, To be honest if you fuck with someone's work because it's "funny" you shouldn't really have protection.

[Gouty]

Hi! Apologies for not replying sooner, I was just made aware of this by one of the admins and so had to create an account. It was yesterday, and I have no logs, but I'll try my best.

Agreed, it was a very long round, I think that the shuttle had been called at this point.
I walked past robotics and saw that the miner was building a H.O.N.K. something you only build if you intend to grief, if it was a clown I might have left them, but a miner was probably up to no good.
I think I announced it on the radio that they were building it, but can't remember. Anyway, I remembered that there was a braindead roboticist in the medbay lobby, so took their ID, grabbed a meth pill, ran in and grabbed the mask and the horn. Proceeded to wear the mask and honk the horn (because you would wouldn't you?)
Cue the yakkity sax and I was out. I can't remember if he hit me then as I ran away, or when I got to the HoP line, anyway the captain was in the HoP office, I think I managed to blurt out to them that they were building a H.O.N.K and ask were they OK with it. I don't think I got a reply before I was attacked, I think first with a pickaxe and then definitely a kinetic accelerator (not sure if it was standard or hyper or whatever, but it did quite a bit of damage) anyway, I shouted "help", and then ran off, wasn't given a chance to talk before lethal force was used.
I remembered that I had a shotgun in my bag with beanbags in it that the bartender had given to me before committing suicide, so I attempted to stop him with it, please bear in mind that I was already very badly injured before doing this. Shortly after that I was in crit, and then no mercy, dead (not crit, take stuff back and then medbay, straight up murder, for taking a clown mask and bike horn)

At the time I thought, kinda dickish, no escalation, but whatever, he may not have known that they were non lethals at the time. But surely someone with their robustness must have noticed any damage they took was stamina, and that the spent cartridges were green.

Luckily I had scanned myself (like many other people had) way before any of it happened, just in case, so I thought I'll be able to at least finish the round and escape on the shuttle.
They had ample time to restrain me, I was not a threat but instead I was dragged off as soon as I came out of the cloner, still unconsious, down the hall all the while being hit with a sonic jackhammer. They then proceed to hide my body in the robotics morgue drawer thing.

Oh and the sec headset was on the floor in aux storage, so I took it, even spoke to an officer about it, and over sec comms I think. It was a long round, these items just sort of accrue.

[J_Madison]

why would you steal someone's work just because "they might be griffin" that's like taking all bomb valves at roundstart.
Why did you take actions into your hands when you're not sec and purposely set up to do this with a meth pill.

How about you leave other people's rounds alone until they interfere with yours.
I killed you because you likely had a virus since you didn't slow down after being hit, and survived several pummels from a sonic jackhammer. I couldn't restrain you because I don't carry cable cuffs (I do not validhunt, I do not go out of my way to fuck with other's rounds), which I couldn't say the same for you and your intentions if you had stopped me from getting what belonged to me back.

[Gouty]

I do not validhunt

So what do you call determining someone as being an a traitor by going through his stuff, and then preemptively killing them as they appear out of cloning?

I do not go out of my way to fuck with other's rounds

I'm sure you built that H.O.N.K. for altruistic reasons. When have you ever seen anyone use a H.O.N.K with a banana mortar and a honkblaster for constructive purposes? Hell, I have been bwoinked before for building one as a clown before. Also, what did you do once you made the H.O.N.K? In case you can't remember you filled escape with bananas and I think after the first blast from the horn the crew destroyed your mech, were they all valid because they destroyed your mech, no? Was I valid because I took a mask and horn?

I'm sorry that I didn't particularly want to be stuck on the shuttle deaf, stunned, shaking and at risk of being slipped all the time.

I couldn't restrain you because I don't carry cable cuffs

Not like robotics has any wire in it. Anyway that is besides the point, you knocked me into crit so why would you need to restrain me? You could have taken your stuff back, but you you were mad I took your toys and so killed me, twice.

Fact of the matter is you killed me outright for minor theft, twice. You got daybanned and now you are buttmad

[J_Madison]

I went through your stuff because you wronged me first. That's not validhunting. That's castle doctrine and using force to return what is mine.

Doesn't matter. Building a honk mech is not fucking with someone's round until it is used. If anyone observed, I did not use it until several people started attacking the mech for existing.
You are not security. You cannot kill or piss off a janitor simply because you might slip. Nor is the case for stealing someone's mech parts.

Robotics had no visible wire since it was used to make other mechs. I do not as a non-antag make cablecuffs because I do not validhunt.

Minor theft? Vital parts to a mech? That's as minor as stealing the uranium for a Durand or the vital items used to research weapons in science.

I'm not mad about the ban. I'm mad that you've gotten off scott free until I posted this.

[Zilenan91]

You conveniently left out that it was a H.O.N.K. Mech you were building in both OPs.

[J_Madison]

You conveniently left out that it was a H.O.N.K. Mech you were building in both OPs.

doesn't matter. durands can stun you for longer and are more deadly. it isn't any more different since it's directly messing with another player's hour worth of work.

[Zilenan91]

Yes it is different, HONKs are only made to HONK blast crowds and piss people off. If you don't want people stopping you from making a HONK then don't make a HONK or do it in maint or something, not out in the open.

[J_Madison]

Yes it is different, HONKs are only made to HONK blast crowds and piss people off. If you don't want people stopping you from making a HONK then don't make a HONK or do it in maint or something, not out in the open.

and bombs are made to destroy massive areas.

if it were a sec officer, fair enough, but he wasn't. He went out of his way, acted like a non-antag, non-sec, baited someone to retaliate and complained in ahelps when his action was met with a reaction.

[Tornadium]

HONK Mechs have been used as a legitimate form of Riot Control in the past by Security/Heads.

It's not used for griefing EVERY round. Yeah when it rarely happens that one is made most will grief with it but that really shouldn't be a license to get your valids on and fuck with the hard work of other people. It is kinda ban baiting 101.

[Gouty]

You cannot kill or piss off a janitor simply because you might slip.

Wet floors are the result of a janitor doing their job. Every time I have come across a H.O.N.K. it has been bad news.

You're also acting like you were open to any IC dicussion, nope it was straight to the lethal force. And you still haven't explained why you didn't just crit me and take the stuff but felt the need to kill me twice?

castle doctrine

Not familiar with this and there's no simple wikipedia page on this, so you made me read the full article, shame on you for making me learn. Is this what Americans call "stand your ground" laws? I'm not sure how this applies, what is the castle in this sense? Seeing as you yourself were in a department you do not have access for?

You conveniently left out that it was a H.O.N.K. Mech you were building in both OPs.

He left a few things out, that the "vital parts" were a clown mask and bike horn, that he killed me twice (first time with pretty much no escalation, second time when I was literally defenseless)
He also conjectured that the ID, sec headset and weapon were stolen and that I was ban baiting.

and bombs are made to destroy massive areas.

And if I saw someone who was not a scientist making bombs, I would be inclined to interfere too, at least to ask what they were doing or inform someone that they were doing it.

Anyway, you have to admit that it is pretty funny that we are both going to such lengths to discuss the theft of a virtual clown mask and horn, no?

[Saegrimr]

Anyway, you have to admit that it is pretty funny that we are both going to such lengths to discuss the theft of a virtual clown mask and horn, no?

It's not funny at all. Its depressingly autistic and I hope jmad can't find that refreshing cool spot on his pillow tonight. I'm closing this as its not actionable.