Snowflake items in R&D

[Helios]

I've been playing a lot of the original X-com recently and its got me thinking. What if there was a special tech requirement for items. It would require the destruction of specific items to make special items. This would do well for items that don't really fit in. disassembling abductors equipment could unlock a baton that has infinite charge and can make cuffs. Breaking apart xenos could unlock new synthetic alien implants. Breaking apart a soulstone gives the ability to make posibrain drones not limited by drone laws. A lot of items when taken from antagonists don't do anything, and end up sitting in the armory
Being able to disassemble it for New perks could be fun.

[MisterPerson]

That was the idea behind R&D actually.

[lumipharon]

Sounds neat, but R&D in general needs an overhaul. All the various levels are inconsistant as fuck, experimentor makes everything comically easy to get etc etc.

I'd like to see the origin tech and req tech of everything looked at, such that (for example):

• tech levels up 5 are readily reachable (deconning circuit boards, other crap in R&D, little to no minerals needed)

• 6 & 7 requires some help form other departments (minerals, combat shotguns, certain slime cores, etc)

• 8 & 9 are high end, difficult to get shit, that can't always be reachable every round (certain away mission loot, xeno organs, anomaly cores, aylium weapons, pulse rifles, etc)

• 10 being badmin tier shit (pulse destroyers etc)

Then organise the req tech of items as need be, so for example bluespace portal guns (which are OP as all fuck) might require bluespace 8 or 9, so you might need say... a bluespace anom core, or some shit to be able to get it, which would mean you can't reliably geet one every round.

[onleavedontatme]

Redoing RD would

A) Be a massive project

B) Upset everyone

[lumipharon]

It would be a fuckhuge amount of effort, for sure, but lets face it.
R&D is a horrible, over powered mess right now thanks to what's been an endless stream of buffs. It wasn't that long ago that most machines weren't upgradeable, we didnt have OP tier 4 upgrades, portal guns, anti-stun/nodrops/thermal/x-ray/reviver/hunger-canceller implants, and all the other shit.

The only change to R&D that has been in the right direction for a LONG time, was making phazons require an anomaly core to construct, which reined in phazons every round.

[Helios]

This is starting to remind me of discussions people had about Cult, and how that rework worked.
I don't think a total overhaul would be a good idea, just gating some stuff behind this would be better I think.
Like requiring a deconstructed bluespace crystal for Bag of Holding, stuff like that.

[Anonmare]

This is starting to remind me of discussions people had about Cult, and how that rework worked.
I don't think a total overhaul would be a good idea, just gating some stuff behind this would be better I think.
Like requiring a deconstructed bluespace crystal for Bag of Holding, stuff like that.

>Implying that's even remotely difficult
W E W L A D
E
W

L
A
D

It'd be better gated by requiring science to actually cooperate with other departments for once, like getting botany to make them bluespace tomatoes.

[lumipharon]

This is starting to remind me of discussions people had about Cult, and how that rework worked.
I don't think a total overhaul would be a good idea, just gating some stuff behind this would be better I think.
Like requiring a deconstructed bluespace crystal for Bag of Holding, stuff like that.

That's the thing, it's not even an overhaul, it's as simple (and tedious) as changing origin and req tech levels of items.

[TheNightingale]

So I asked Cadence, and she sent back a list of Level 6 tech you can get without much effort at the moment, and how it could be improved.

Spoiler:

This is all 'origin tech', so they currently give one level over the number.
Super-cap cell: Power Manipulation 5 --> Power Manipulation 4
Teleporter Hub board: Bluespace 5 --> Bluespace 4; Engineering 5 --> Engineering 4
Portable wormhole generator: Bluespace 3 --> Bluespace 5 (note that its tech requirements to build should be adjusted too)
Power turbine/emitter/SMES/PACMAN board: Engineering 5 --> Engineering 4; Power 5 --> Power 4
Power compressor board: Power 5 --> Power 4
RCD: Engineering 4 --> Engineering 5
Pico-manipulator/super matter bin: Materials 5 --> Materials 4

Note that this doesn't stop you getting these tech levels, just makes it difficult without outside help.
* You can reach Power 6 by deconstructing a hyper-cap cell (unlocked at Power 5, requires minerals).
* You can reach Bluespace 6 by deconstructing a wormhole generator (now unlocked at Bluespace 5, requires Robotics).
* You can reach Engineering 6 by deconstructing an RCD (requires EVA/Engineering/an Autolathe).
* You can reach Materials 6 by deconstructing an AI module or some uranium (requires AI/Mining).

I'd suggest making Durand/Gygax weapon boards harder to make, but there isn't really anything available in R&D that has Combat 2-->3 or 3-->4 anyway.

[Anonmare]

You can get Mat 6 with Super matter bins with already decent levels and an advanced scanning module. Hell I can reach all that without any help, including robotics if I build my own exo fab.

Edit: hang on, lemme just try to recall my R&d guide

Spoiler:

Wrench, flamethrower, Health analyzer, Tracking beacon, Micro-manipulator, power cell and hi-cap/two hi-cap cells, plasma sheet, practice laser gun, Relay telecomms board, sleeper board, portable chem dispenser board, PACMAN board, power turbine board, super-cap power cell, Mech wormhole generator, Two mech syringe guns, 2 Durand weapons boards, telepad board, telepad hub board and super matter bin.

This get's you to most of blue-space tech without *any* reliance on outside assistance as a scientist (not including the RD's extra access). Not listed is upgrades but you don't need me to tell you to upgrade stuff.
The only thing I do as non-standard is upgrade the circuit imprinter with a nano-manip after printing off the sleeper board so I can print off the portable chem board - meaning I never need to bother chem for acid.

[TheNightingale]

Not bad. It uses the practice laser gun, though, which can't be replaced. Also, doing two boards before the portable chem dispenser means you have to upgrade the CI to print the latter off (rather than only having to upgrade once after you hit T3); you never need to bother chem, sure, but if you cut out the relay board (which gives you 3 Engi, 3 Bluespace, 3 Data) and use a pAI card (Data 3) and welding gas mask (Engi 3) instead, you don't have to upgrade the circuit imprinter until afterwards. (You can get Bluespace 3 later on, since it doesn't actually give you anything until you get minerals.)

Using a capacitor and then a high-cap cell is more efficient than using two cells (leaving a high-cap cell lying around just in case power goes out/something explodes), and for the practice laser gun, get your EM 3 from a flash instead (same place as the health analyzer; Tech Storage, Robotics or the Testing Lab), then decon another Durand board later on. If you're only using the PACMAN board for Power 4 (the portable chem dispenser board gives the rest), do an advanced capacitor instead to save glass in the CI. You can cut down on syringe guns too by deconstructing an advanced scanning module instead (giving EM 4); the portable chem dispenser gives Bio 4 anyway, so you only need one to go to EM/Bio 5. The power turbine board hits Engi 6, but the telepad hub board does that too later on.

(This thread is now "R&D nerds shill their optimal strategies".)

[kevinz000]

i've memorized all the levels long, long ago :^)

[Ricotez]

I really wish that the research levels were tied to the different subdepartments of Science, so that if you want the more advanced techs you'll have to perform research in multiple labs by yourself, or coordinate and work together with your fellow scientists.

[Cobby]

You can get Mat 6 with Super matter bins with already decent levels and an advanced scanning module. Hell I can reach all that without any help, including robotics if I build my own exo fab.

Edit: hang on, lemme just try to recall my R&d guide

Spoiler:

Wrench, flamethrower, Health analyzer, Tracking beacon, Micro-manipulator, power cell and hi-cap/two hi-cap cells, plasma sheet, practice laser gun, Relay telecomms board, sleeper board, portable chem dispenser board, PACMAN board, power turbine board, super-cap power cell, Mech wormhole generator, Two mech syringe guns, 2 Durand weapons boards, telepad board, telepad hub board and super matter bin.

This get's you to most of blue-space tech without *any* reliance on outside assistance as a scientist (not including the RD's extra access). Not listed is upgrades but you don't need me to tell you to upgrade stuff.
The only thing I do as non-standard is upgrade the circuit imprinter with a nano-manip after printing off the sleeper board so I can print off the portable chem board - meaning I never need to bother chem for acid.

If you can print a sleeper board, decon that, then decon a welding mask implant, you get material 5 and bio 4, the first giving you the ability to produce picos and SMBins.

[Actionb]

Like requiring a deconstructed bluespace crystal for Bag of Holding, stuff like that.

We need more of this! Instead of gating powerful items behind mere research levels and a pitiful amount of ressources, have them actually consume something rare.

I really wish that the research levels were tied to the different subdepartments of Science, so that if you want the more advanced techs you'll have to perform research in multiple labs by yourself, or coordinate and work together with your fellow scientists.

Science only really has one subdepartment: xenobio. Toxins can't do anything than mix gases. Genetics has nothing to do with how science works, currently.
Oh there is the experimentor... that does what exactly again?
As it is, sentience potions give you bio 6 (tasty implants) - that's pretty much it.
How about needing bluespace slime cores for BS 6+ research levels?
Adamantine cores for materials 7+? Black ones for bio 6+.
Remove the formula of new tech level = item tech level - 1, so that you can't just shove one ada core into the DA for immediate materials 7.
Spread out the late-game RnD items over more, higher research levels, so that BoHs, xray implants and the like need some actual 'science' work.

I'd rather find a good way of making powerful items more difficult to obtain, instead of making research too atrocious so that it gives you diabetes ass cancer hemorrhoids for trying to do the station a favour by going for better upgrade parts.

[Takeguru]

Experimentor is how you get higher tech levels than normal

It's just liable to melt your face at the same time.

[Actionb]

Experimentor is how you get higher tech levels than normal

It's just liable to melt your face at the same time.

Its function for getting higher tech levels boils down to smashing buttons at random as quickly as the machine permits to get the desired result.
For something with the word experiment in its name, when there's no real experimenting involved, is just sad.

[TheNightingale]

I've never had any luck with the Experimentor. It's the Irradiate function that allegedly increases tech levels, but I've put mech syringe guns in there and pressed it some 100 times with either no result, or a cat.

[Actionb]

I've never had any luck with the Experimentor. It's the Irradiate function that allegedly increases tech levels, but I've put mech syringe guns in there and pressed it some 100 times with either no result, or a cat.

The event required for increased tech levels is a global event, meaning it's not linked to any of the experiment methods, but just pure luck.
The more upgrades the experimentor has, the more events are unlocked... but you don't want that, so just upgrade the manipulators; these shorten the reset timer.