Gang converting sec/snowballing

onleavedontatme · Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:44 am

I feel like we don't have dominator fights anymore like we used to. Instead whichever gang implants an officer first scoops up the rest of sec, grabs the whole armory, then steamrolls the station.

I miss the grand finales and the back and forth between the three factions (gang vs gang vs sec).

Other than removing implant breakers (which seems unpopular), any idea of how to fix this? Is it even a problem?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:04 am #121114

Sec getting converted is retardly easy and way to strong.

The problem with removing implant breakers altogether is it means sec can implant everyone to deny recruits - it's only really an issue with recruiting security itself.

You could maybe make round start sec immune to conversion like the captain/chap are in rev, but it seems a little snwflakey.

The obviously thing would be to increase the cost of the breakers (they're very cheap), but I think it would be hard to balance between "cheap enough to easily turn sec" and "too expensive to ever bother"
But again, they're currently really cheap for what they do, some sort of increase wouldn't hurt.

Boredone · Post by **Boredone** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:37 am #121115

You know, maybe the implants could just 'break' implants and/or deconvert instead of outright converting by themselves?
So you implant THEN pen security officers.
Might need to possibly be cheaper with that though, I don't have much experience as a ganger so not sure.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:08 am #121119

From what I've seen Gang seems to be a race for the first gang to convert security and take over the brig.

I'm biased but I just dislike the idea of easily converting security officers to a gang. Really does not sit well with me, if I want to be a gangster or rev I would not be playing security in the first place.

Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:17 am

Boredone wrote:You know, maybe the implants could just 'break' implants and/or deconvert instead of outright converting by themselves?
So you implant THEN pen security officers.
Might need to possibly be cheaper with that though, I don't have much experience as a ganger so not sure.

this is actually probably the best suggestion, the cooldown on conversion pens is what caused gang to build up slowly back in the day, but implants completely bypass the cooldown
what that essentially means is:
implants grant a gang extra members earlier into the round -> more gangsters leads to more point acquired -> more points acquired leads into more implants bought -> more implants leads to more gangs, which loops back and forth snowballing until a gang has 10,000 members
this is made even worse by the fact that you can convert enemy gangsters to your gang as well, meaning not only do you snowball but you also reverse-snowball all the other gangs

making implants not convert and just break loyalty implants means that gangs will move at a pace relative to the number of lieutenants they have (because how many people you can convert in a certain time depends on how many lieutenants), instead of who can buy the most implants

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:30 am #121126

I like the idea of implant breakers just, uh, breaking implants. It won't stop stuncuffconvert, but it will slow down the snowballing and stop slipconvert outright.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:32 am #121127

From the last time I was converted as RD and given boss status, I have noticed that the implant breaker does not convert the target, it simply makes him vulnerable to conversion. This is a non-factor, however, because the breaker gave a convenient stun which allowed me to apply my conversion pen without issue.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:32 am #121128

If you can implant an officer you can pen him just as easily.
Unless you're trying to convert all of sec in 5 minutes with one pen, it's not really that much of a change.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:33 am #121129

Just make security officers and higher up immune to gang conversion.

Same as why Gang leaders are immune to loyalty conversion.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:12 am #121137

Steelpoint wrote:Just make security officers and higher up immune to gang conversion.

Same as why Gang leaders are immune to loyalty conversion.

That would be too much I feel. Perhaps a better change would be to make it so that implant breakers can't go through helmets/berets and other head armor.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:32 am #121142

That's already the case. But again, it doesn't matter since you jst need to stun + crit, then you have all the time in the world.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:35 am #121144

True, but I remember people complaining about gangers (totally not Emily Ranger) slipping sec officers with water, and then implant breaking them due to the stun being just long enough to do it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:37 am #121145

that's why it got added, because that was REALLY bullshit.

Atleast currently the officer has a few seconds to scream for help (unless you offer them augmens as a roboticist so they take their headset off).

Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:48 am

lumipharon wrote:If you can implant an officer you can pen him just as easily.
Unless you're trying to convert all of sec in 5 minutes with one pen, it's not really that much of a change.

every time there's a gang that decides to bypass the pen cooldown with implants, they win
the whole problem with implants is that you most certainly can convert all of sec in 5 minutes, but then you can also convert the enemy gang too

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:55 am #121151

Doubling, or even tripling the cost of implant breakers, while not guaranteed to fix the problem, I do think it would help.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:00 am #121153

lumipharon wrote:that's why it got added, because that was REALLY bullshit.

Atleast currently the officer has a few seconds to scream for help (unless you offer them augmens as a roboticist so they take their headset off).

I'm actually really paranoid about the whole thing and leave an active SBR in my backpack when I go for any surgery.
It's meta as piss and really annoying to those it's fucked, but the salt is hilarious.

Then again, I feel justified in doing it ever since that one cult round where I was the sac target.
As an assistant who went in for borging/augs I actually forget which

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:25 am #121154

What if...
Sec cant implant gangers, and gangers cant convert the implanted.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:51 am #121156

Saegrimr wrote:What if...
Sec cant implant gangers, and gangers cant convert the implanted.

Tears will flow and the station will run red

A thousand angry ghosts will encircle the HoS

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:08 am

Just make breakers not have the auto-convert.

That way the cooldown for conversion on pens will actually have a game effect

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:37 am #121194

Converting a head or sec officer needs to have an applicable cost to counter the reward you get for doing it.

Having even one ganged sec member is a massive advantage and that one sec member can if he's lucky or smart surprise disable multiple other members of the department and get them converted too.

I'm unclear on how the resource cost for Gangs work but i'd just make it a massive investment for a single implant breaker.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:21 pm #121221

How about splitting loyalty implants into two kinds: a strong one (the implant that sec and heads start with) and a weak one (the implant that is in armory and can be ordered by cargo). The implant breaker can only break the weak loyalty implants so that gangs can counter security implanting everyone but not convert security staff or heads.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:48 pm #121240

Increasing the cost of implant breakers is an easy and effective fix.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:51 pm #121241

I personally feel you should not be able to convert Security Officers and the Captain, period.

I like phil235's suggestion of seperating Loyalty Implants into two groups, one for round start officers that cannot be broken by anything and one for post-round start that can be broken.

If Ikarrus intention with Gang was to somewhat marginalise security, at least making their implants not cock block half the station would be a positive step without screwing around with trying to balance one gang getting a foot into security's door and winning from there.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:11 pm #121242

Yeah the cost of implant breakers was just a number I pulled out of the air. It hasn't had any review.

It could stand to be increased to 20 or 30. I felt that even 10 was too low when I first added them.

You guys are free to try other things out, but a cost increase is what I'd try first. Whatever you do, just don't make gang any more complicated than it is.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:20 pm #121243

Honestly I'd just remove the ability to convert Sec.

Right now they are basically the easiest and most cost effective method of winning the mode.

Even if you increase the cost it will still be the most effective.

Post by **Cobby** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:40 pm #121248

The argument of "If I wanted to play Gang I wouldn't go sec" can easily be applied to any other individual that has these gamemodes turned off. Sec shouldn't get special snowflake protection simply because they would rather deny greens instead of help someone get them.

Just removing the convert is an applicable fix because you have to at least wait for you pen to be ready to be able to convert OR buy another pen [which is very expensive]. That's ALL that needs to be done to fix the issue, there's no need to overcomplicate it ["Oh we need to raise the price", "Oh now the price is too high, we need to lower it a bit", "WHY CANT WE FIX THISSSSSS WAHHHHHHHHH"]

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:45 pm #121251

Did you seriously just made an argument that changing one number from 10 to 30 is an overcomplicated fix?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:01 pm #121259

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:The argument of "If I wanted to play Gang I wouldn't go sec" can easily be applied to any other individual that has these gamemodes turned off. Sec shouldn't get special snowflake protection simply because they would rather deny greens instead of help someone get them.

Just removing the convert is an applicable fix because you have to at least wait for you pen to be ready to be able to convert OR buy another pen [which is very expensive]. That's ALL that needs to be done to fix the issue, there's no need to overcomplicate it ["Oh we need to raise the price", "Oh now the price is too high, we need to lower it a bit", "WHY CANT WE FIX THISSSSSS WAHHHHHHHHH"]

I'm saying it's a complete balance clusterfuck because if you don't go for sec you're going to be completely outgunned.

Right now the progression route for this mode is

Get method of stunning sec -----> Stun sec -----> implant break and convert ----> use sec officer to do the same to other officers ---> win.

onleavedontatme · Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:08 pm

Steelpoint wrote: If Ikarrus intention with Gang was to somewhat marginalise security

Honestly that's my intention here as well. I want gang vs gang with sec on the sidelines instead of secgang vs gang.

linelynnline · Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:15 pm

Cargo seems to be just as viable a route for arming your gang.

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:26 pm #121265

Kor wrote:
Steelpoint wrote: If Ikarrus intention with Gang was to somewhat marginalise security
Honestly that's my intention here as well. I want gang vs gang with sec on the sidelines instead of secgang vs gang.

As long as gangs are capable of starting shit with people who aren't part of either gang, sec will never be on the sidelines.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:54 pm #121270

Sounds more like a player problem of not sec not being agressive enough

If I was a sec member and saw a guy in sec clothing without an implant in gang I'd gun them down on the spot, or atleast reimplant them.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:07 pm #121288

Malkevin wrote:Sounds more like a player problem of not sec not being agressive enough

If I was a sec member and saw a guy in sec clothing without an implant in gang I'd gun them down on the spot, or atleast reimplant them.

yup, that always works for me. I think a lot a lot of sec players feel they will get bwoinked if they play agressive and make a judgemental error.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:13 pm #121320

Malkevin wrote:Sounds more like a player problem of not sec not being agressive enough

If I was a sec member and saw a guy in sec clothing without an implant in gang I'd gun them down on the spot, or atleast reimplant them.

"O-o-oh h-e-e-y G-g-g-re-g, whe-r-r-e's y-y-y-y-o-u-r i-i-i-m-p-lant?"

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:29 pm #121323

I see this brought up pretty frequently, but I am pretty sure malk's point is that you shoot first and ask questions later

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:38 am #121336

Wyzack wrote:I see this brought up pretty frequently, but I am pretty sure malk's point is that you shoot first and ask questions later

No shit, standard sec practice on greyshirts goes double on suspected antags

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:35 am #121372

Implant breakers are required for several reasons, at a simliar if not the same pricepoint as current:

1. It allows you to convert enemy gangsters to your side, encouraging converting them instead of outright killing them. This is one reason why gang is so well liked currently. Removing this function means you have to kill any enemy gangsters, which means the round is almost surely to fizzle out into pseudo-extended entirely as sec/crew/enemy gangs gradually wears down the gangs, as this is the most common usage for them lategame with two evenly matched gangs.

2. It allows you to convert implantees to your side, encouraging converting them instead of gunning them down in the halls guerrilla-style. Removing this means you have to gun down security AND every implantee that security generates creates a dead weight that, if captured alive (more risky than using a lethal weapon that gangs can only acquire with their resources), essentially forces you to ditch the burden and move on. This means that rounds where sec/crew has the upper hand or in balance would now be guaranteed to topple any existing gangs. It also means that sec/crew would be receiving a severe buff in this mode, and would be essentially a slow, crippled revolution. Finally, kicks more people out of the game since more killing must ensue. Will not function in a fun fashion for this game mode.

You can't change either of these two core features, or the balance that has created will be toppled. If security has too great of a focus in gang, then that may not necessarily be a problem in gang, but rather, more of a structural problem in that departments have been too nerfed in what they can acquire readily and effectively culture. Perhaps security has too great of a focus for the same reason as in any other mode security has too great a focus - they have too much, and the alternatives available on-station tend to be worse variants of what security already has, or is too lethal in a gamemode revolving, primarily, around non-lethal warfare. Easily acquireable stun gear not reliant on security is relegated solely to cargo, stunprods, water/lube, and damp rags with beepsky smash or whatnot.

However, for what can be done. I believe that messing with a very well-liked game mode too much might make it worse. Yes, the game mode revolves around security, and having security on your side is a massive boon, but is that such a terrible thing when converting them is MUCH riskier process than converting anyone else, especially if a single cyborg comes your way as they will be shouting bloody murder throughout the process. The best option here would be to make loyalty implants more visible, as they were before, so that it's more easily noticeable that an officer is missing an implant to other officers while they are moving (as-is it's very difficult to see quickly unless they're sitting still). More expensive implants means that suddenly the lategame of a balanced game with 2 gangs inevitably becomes an utter bloodbath, and security would also receive a hefty buff. Forcing gangsters to remove helmets, or increasing the implant time will only serve to make it a more cumbersome tool to use, while not solving the problem (there's hardly a difference between slip -> cuff -> take off helmet -> implant and slip -> cuff -> implant in maint).

Also, my meme water strategy only functions if security is retarded and slips on easily visible water, and no one sees the obvious signs of a trap and searches the side areas.

TLDR: Tread carefully. It's a good gamemode as-is, if the polls are anything to go by, and if you 'tweak' it in the wrong direction, it'll go down the shitter and be rev: slow/sec wins edition.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:49 am

to be fair, if all we did was make it break implants and not convert, you could still convert implantees
and if we made it also deconvert enemy gangsters, it would be the same thing as before, just with less snowballing because you still have to wait on the conversion pen cooldown

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:56 am #121377

PKPenguin321 wrote:to be fair, if all we did was make it break implants and not convert, you could still convert implantees
and if we made it also deconvert enemy gangsters, it would be the same thing as before, just with less snowballing because you still have to wait on the conversion pen cooldown

Barely. Not much would change - the meta would change to the same thing now except delayed a couple minutes. Blitz lieutenants, get an extra pen maybe, expand influence until you get around 8 recruits, spam implants. Pens are never a limiting factor past earlygame, since they hardly get used when implants start rolling around, and your influence supply is a more limiting factor.

No matter what you do, without removing them or removing those features I outlined, will do one of two things - either slow the pace of the gangs or quicken the pace of the gangs. Neither are preferable at this juncture, as the sole 'problem' described here is security being converted resulting in snowballing, not the pace of the gang. Slowing the pace of gangs has it's own host of problems, i.e. it'd push security further into the limelight like in rev, and potentially even grants them the advantage, instead of the disadvantage (which is currently intentional - so that security isn't the focus of the gamemode).

Thus, I believe the best trial solution is to have more visible implant icons, which SHOULD then provide adequate notification to security guards that an officer isn't on their side. I don't know why we got rid of our traditional top-right aligned nanotrasen logo, but it's might be apt to re-examine that, or to bottom-left/bottom-right align that if it conflicts with atom-based antagonists.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:39 am #121380

I think the NT icon was removed due to edge cases of the NT icon overlapping with certain antag icons such as Cult or Syndicate icons.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:43 am #121381

Steelpoint wrote:I think the NT icon was removed due to edge cases of the NT icon overlapping with certain antag icons such as Cult or Syndicate icons.

It was preparatory for datum antags

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:47 am #121382

Ah yes, "datum antags". We've dismissed that claim.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Malkevin wrote:Sounds more like a player problem of not sec not being agressive enough

If I was a sec member and saw a guy in sec clothing without an implant in gang I'd gun them down on the spot, or atleast reimplant them.

The problem is is that it's quicker for the gang officer to spot that you don't have a huge red G over your head than it is for you to notice the blue flash isn't happening, and if he was given an implant breaker, you'll get "H-H-ALP GEORGE EDWARDS GANG" before you're hailing the virtues of sniffing paint with the rest of them.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:29 am #121412

loyalty implant and antag icon overlapping makes no sense.

If you're not in the same antag faction, you can ony ever see the loyalty implant icon.

If you're in the same antag faction, the fact that they're loyalty implanted it utterly irrelevent.

New loyalty flash thing is much harder to see at a glance who is who.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:15 pm #121424

So we're all in agreement that loyalty implants need to be made more visible? What do you folks suggest?

I liked top-right aligned, but if it interferes with datum antags it could just be shifted to the bottom-right or bottom-left instead. Regardless, it needs to be more visible than a blinking tiny box, when it's hard to distinguish quickly if someone is on the move.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:51 pm #121429

To be honest I think the blinking box is pretty easy to spot. Is it really just me? It's much more obvious than the NT symbol, you're just looking for something different.

What I really don't like is the idea that security officers be impossible to convert at all. As someone who plays security, it's not that fun to know that even if you're captured in the most one-sided of ways, you will die. At least in cult you can get made into a construct. If it's just impossible to become useful to the gang then that's only going to encourage security forces to become more and more lethal as the threat becomes more and more lethal to them.

Security mostly just needs to be harder to convert, and the implant breaker+pen is a good one. The real issue with a snowballing security gang that I've experienced has come when a lawyer has successfully slipped a security member and then implanted them in the time it takes for them to recover from the slip stun. Force them to take all hats off or something, but it was one person slipping and converting the whole sec team in one go that broke gang in the rounds that I experienced this.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:15 pm

Amelius wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:to be fair, if all we did was make it break implants and not convert, you could still convert implantees
and if we made it also deconvert enemy gangsters, it would be the same thing as before, just with less snowballing because you still have to wait on the conversion pen cooldown
Barely. Not much would change - the meta would change to the same thing now except delayed a couple minutes. Blitz lieutenants, get an extra pen maybe, expand influence until you get around 8 recruits, spam implants. Pens are never a limiting factor past earlygame, since they hardly get used when implants start rolling around, and your influence supply is a more limiting factor.

yeah but what i'm saying is that if we only made implants deconvert instead of "deconvert AND convert you to my side in one shot" that pens WOULD be a limiting factor past early game. and you can't really spam implants because they're no longer your central conversion tool, just a tool for converting who you previously weren't able to, meaning if you bought 20 implants you wouldn't get 20 new gang members, you'd just have the chance to convert 20 people you wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

having the conversion pen as a pacer for the gamemode is what we had before implant breakers fucked the balance of the mode into "who can get the most implant breakers the fastest," and it worked, even better than the mode works now, because you would have really fun cinematic seiges of gang-on-gang when somebody placed a dominator. with implant breakers as they are right now, there's 0 pacing, and the round ends with "gang with the entire station placed a dominator and nobody even tried to stop it."

onleavedontatme · Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:36 pm

I didn't realize it completely bypassed the pen cooldown as well. That's probably a bigger issue than converting sec honestly.

Lumbermancer · Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:59 am

I have a feeling that some security people actively try to get caught by gang and get converted. I mean fuck, I once saw a detective that got converted and deconverted twice. You'd think after first time you'd be careful.

And you can't rally tell whether they done it on purpose, or are they just stupid. That's why breaker has to go.

Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:31 am

Kor wrote:I didn't realize it completely bypassed the pen cooldown as well. That's probably a bigger issue than converting sec honestly.

yep. successful gangs with a lot of influence will barely use the pen, they'll just buy a ton of implant breakers and use them on everybody (even people without implants) simply because it's faster.