PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Pistol Edition

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:16 am #117933

Bottom post of the previous page:

If you go with the voucher system then remove spare hybrid tasers/pistols from the armory. If officers want to powergame and take both, at least make it so they have to order from cargo.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:19 am #117934

I don't understand why you're fucking with the balance of every game mode for an "aesthetic" change that also helps against e-shields when you could just change eshields' laser reflect if that's what you're so concerned about.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:40 am #117936

newfren wrote:I don't understand why you're fucking with the balance of every game mode for an "aesthetic" change that also helps against e-shields when you could just change eshields' laser reflect if that's what you're so concerned about.

There are a fuckton of things that need rebalanced outside of E-Shields.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:24 am #117938

lumipharon wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Have a chance to, and that's pretty much it.

Its more a aesthetic change with some benefits.
Then just. Fucking. Change tasers. Or change the reflect chance of e-shields or something. Holy shit.

There were and still are a lot of broken balance issues around energy weapons. It'd require somewhere in the same region of effort to deal with all of the issues that energy weapons still have (eg, being dogshit vs most things).

If anything this provides a good reason to start fucking around with RD and Energy Weapons. Maybe sec will actually have a reason to go to RD to get some energy weapons.

I actually really like the progression from

Low Tec Ballistics -----> Simple Energy Weapons -----------> Advanced Energy Weapons

That RD could provide, some kind of round progression is always good. Right now RD is just building shit for RD, would be nice to give them a purpose.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:26 am #117939

If the argument is why take the effort to make a small change, I counter in that I'm 'wasting' my own time on this. This is not taking anyone else's time or effort to make or do.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:34 am #117940

Steelpoint wrote:If the argument is why take the effort to make a small change, I counter in that I'm 'wasting' my own time on this. This is not taking anyone else's time or effort to make or do.

It's not it's why should this change happen at all when a much simpler change (changing E-shields) would fix all the "problems" without requiring a billion balance changes for every antag type.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:42 am #117942

The biggest concern around this PR was the balance change, I'm seriously not seeing the "serious" balance issues arising yet.

Feedback on the whole has been pretty positive apart from the same group of people who screamed on the forums, irc and ingame for hours about it.

It's not it's why should this change happen at all when a much simpler change (changing E-shields) would fix all the "problems" without requiring a billion balance changes for every antag type.

There were a metric fuckton of things wrong with the Antag/Sec balance outside of E-Shields.

There already are a billion fucking balance changes required.

Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:52 am

Steelpoint wrote:Here's my final pistol thoughts.

I think there's enough tactical reasons to want to sometimes use the Pistol over the Taser just as you want to use a Taser over a Pistol.

I am going to go with a voucher system to allow Officers to pick if they want a Taser or a Pistol at round start, this gives Officers flexibility with their starting weapon.

I think that's the best way forward.

All of those advantages could have been conferred to an energy weapon, which wouldn't cause so many unintended balance changes. The differences would be more obvious because they'd all be direct and spelled out (faster reload, etc) instead of unintuitive stuff like being better vs eshields and shit like that.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:58 am #117944

MisterPerson wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Here's my final pistol thoughts.

I think there's enough tactical reasons to want to sometimes use the Pistol over the Taser just as you want to use a Taser over a Pistol.

I am going to go with a voucher system to allow Officers to pick if they want a Taser or a Pistol at round start, this gives Officers flexibility with their starting weapon.

I think that's the best way forward.
All of those advantages could have been conferred to an energy weapon, which wouldn't cause so many unintended balance changes. The differences would be more obvious because they'd all be direct and spelled out (faster reload, etc) instead of unintuitive stuff like being better vs eshields and shit like that.

Then you're buffing sec to an insane level.

The weapon needs drawbacks. Ballistics having no recharge capability and not being able to go through windows provides that.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:20 am #117945

Please put up a poll. Too many people are saying "this seems to be liked by the majority, and is only disliked by a vocal minority" without any proven basis whatsoever.

Wait a day if you want, then place a poll. Everyone will have at least had a chance to try the system. I would be very interested to know if the majority likes it or not.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:25 am #117946

Cheimon wrote:Please put up a poll. Too many people are saying "this seems to be liked by the majority, and is only disliked by a vocal minority" without any proven basis whatsoever.

Wait a day if you want, then place a poll. Everyone will have at least had a chance to try the system. I would be very interested to know if the majority likes it or not.

I was speaking purely from a "this is what the feedback was in OOC at the time I was playing".

Same for most others in IRC, we talked about it for a good while.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:29 am #117948

I put up a forum poll, not the greatest but it should help. I won't vote on my own poll by the way except to abstain.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:33 am #117951

Ingame poll at the time would have been more accurate since most players don't actually use the damn forums.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:41 am #117952

What about this change? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4635
This is basically a nerf to shields and if merged it will remove the main reason behind this whole ballistic sec thing.

I don't want to sound patronizing but I think you coders should try to discuss major changes together when they affect the same issue, otherwise you get coders tackling an issue (shield blocking in this case) from 2 sides and we end up with unbalanced nerfs.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:45 am #117953

Grazyn wrote:What about this change? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4635
This is basically a nerf to shields and if merged it will remove the main reason behind this whole ballistic sec thing.

I don't want to sound patronizing but I think you coders should try to discuss major changes together when they affect the same issue, otherwise you get coders tackling an issue (shield blocking in this case) from 2 sides and we end up with unbalanced nerfs.

Probably because some people think sec is fucking stale and could use some kind of shakeup?

This popped up long after the PR happened, as a kneejerk response to try to get this PR shut down.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:00 am #117954

Tactically if we examine the Pistol versus a Taser we find some advantages and disadvantages to each. Hence why I'm going to push for a vendor system to allow options.

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite

I honestly think we are overexagerating the negatives of the pistol. Its a acceptable side-grade to the Taser but not powerful enough to surmount it nor broken.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:03 am #117955

Tornadium wrote:
Grazyn wrote:What about this change? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4635
This is basically a nerf to shields and if merged it will remove the main reason behind this whole ballistic sec thing.

I don't want to sound patronizing but I think you coders should try to discuss major changes together when they affect the same issue, otherwise you get coders tackling an issue (shield blocking in this case) from 2 sides and we end up with unbalanced nerfs.
Probably because some people think sec is fucking stale and could use some kind of shakeup?

This popped up long after the PR happened, as a kneejerk response to try to get this PR shut down.

Is that really the case though? I have the feeling that at the end of the day we're gonna get both ballistic sec AND the shield nerf. There is no discussion about this PR in the shield nerf thread, and we all now that ballistic sec is gonna happen no matter what, because when someone comes up with good code and nice sprites to go with it, it always gets merged unless it's literally game breaking. So I just assume that Steelpoint is ok with the shield nerf and the one and only reason for this PR is to "shake up" sec and give them guns.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:06 am #117956

Steelpoint wrote:Tactically if we examine the Pistol versus a Taser we find some advantages and disadvantages to each. Hence why I'm going to push for a vendor system to allow options.

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite

I honestly think we are overexagerating the negatives of the pistol. Its a acceptable side-grade to the Taser but not powerful enough to surmount it nor broken.

Are you going to remove spare pistols and tasers from the armory to avoid sec officers just taking both? It's rare to see an officer carrying lasers/eguns but it's pretty common to see one with 2 tasers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:10 am #117958

Possibly, but I won't rush to do anything just yet.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:01 pm #117960

Grazyn wrote:
Tornadium wrote:
Grazyn wrote:What about this change? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4635
This is basically a nerf to shields and if merged it will remove the main reason behind this whole ballistic sec thing.

I don't want to sound patronizing but I think you coders should try to discuss major changes together when they affect the same issue, otherwise you get coders tackling an issue (shield blocking in this case) from 2 sides and we end up with unbalanced nerfs.
Probably because some people think sec is fucking stale and could use some kind of shakeup?

This popped up long after the PR happened, as a kneejerk response to try to get this PR shut down.
Is that really the case though? I have the feeling that at the end of the day we're gonna get both ballistic sec AND the shield nerf. There is no discussion about this PR in the shield nerf thread, and we all now that ballistic sec is gonna happen no matter what, because when someone comes up with good code and nice sprites to go with it, it always gets merged unless it's literally game breaking. So I just assume that Steelpoint is ok with the shield nerf and the one and only reason for this PR is to "shake up" sec and give them guns.

There are other reasons, as listed. Side grades for Sec is in no way game breaking.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:39 pm #117965

Amelius wrote:
Wyzack wrote:It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit
I agree with this. Lasers sorely need a buff, they flat out suck. Juggs are retarded with that reflect too.

Juggs used to get slaughtered before hand.
And git gud, I downed one just last week with two lasers and barely took any returned fired myself.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:07 pm #117966

Malkevin wrote:
Amelius wrote:
Wyzack wrote:It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit
I agree with this. Lasers sorely need a buff, they flat out suck. Juggs are retarded with that reflect too.
Juggs used to get slaughtered before hand.
And git gud, I downed one just last week with two lasers and barely took any returned fired myself.

A completely unsupported juggernaut?

Yeah maybe.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:22 pm #117969

He had a cultist friend running around with a robe and sword, but I wasted him first

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:28 pm #117971

Steelpoint wrote:Tactically if we examine the Pistol versus a Taser we find some advantages and disadvantages to each. Hence why I'm going to push for a vendor system to allow options.

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite

I honestly think we are overexagerating the negatives of the pistol. Its a acceptable side-grade to the Taser but not powerful enough to surmount it nor broken.

There is only a very small set of differences between energy and ballistic weapons.

1)
Energy weapons have a fixed amount of shots, that must be recharged at static locations on the map, power withstanding (adv e-gun being the obvious exception)
Ballistic weapons you can carry your spare ammo around for instand reloads. This mean you can fight for longer, but rearming is more of a hassle/not possible (ops etc).

Your guns are much closer to energy weapons in this regard. With your arbitrary limits on carrying magazines/ammo boxes to (rightfull) stop people from carry assloads of ammo around (which is the entire point of ballistic weapons), all you've done is make an energy weapon with it's totally fire capacity split across 2 items. You still have static location that you have to rearm at, and you still have a very limited amount of shots in the field.

In this regard, what is the difference between a ballistic with 2 mags (and 2 mags only) equalling 10 stuns vs a disabler with the same number of shots and stam damage? Nothing save that rechargers require power, while ammo boxes are immune to powersinks but run out.

2)
Energy weapons (except ion weapons) get draind by emp's.
Ballistic weapons don't.

This is consistant, but is a clear buff to sec and a clear nerf to antags that frequently rely on emp's to both silence and disarm sec.

3)
Energy stun weapons (taser/e-bow) have limited range.
Ballistic weapons (except for the wizardd ony gyrojet) do not.

You're suggesting putting a range limit onto your gun which is just plain inconsistant with all the other weapons, making it again, more in common with a taser then a ballistic.

4)
Electrodes (including the stun slug I believe) and disabler shots dont cause actual damage.
Ballistics all do, including beanbag rounds and shotgun darts.

You have a hand gun that shoots bullets of pure stam damage, exactly like a disabler, and unlike other ballistics.

5)
Laser rounds can go through transparent objects.
Ballistics and electrodes cannot.

Consistant, but only a minor nerf, considering disablers are shit.

6)
Energy weapons reflect off e-shields 100% of the time. (technically not true, you can still get through with shit like laser cannons and pulse rifles, but still very RNG)
Ballistics get blocked 50% of the time.

This is the only reason other then your own personal preference for ballistics that you've offered.
It's a (percieved) issue with the reflect ability of 2 niche items vs energy weapons. The logical decision here is to change this interaction in some way. Instead, you choose to effectively abandoning energy weapons, giving sec ballistics instead, then shrugging and saying you can code all the changes that will be needed to adjust for such a significant change.

You don't buy a new car because your old one popped a tyre.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:29 pm #117972

lumipharon wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Tactically if we examine the Pistol versus a Taser we find some advantages and disadvantages to each. Hence why I'm going to push for a vendor system to allow options.

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite

I honestly think we are overexagerating the negatives of the pistol. Its a acceptable side-grade to the Taser but not powerful enough to surmount it nor broken.
There is only a very small set of differences between energy and ballistic weapons.

1)
Energy weapons have a fixed amount of shots, that must be recharged at static locations on the map, power withstanding (adv e-gun being the obvious exception)
Ballistic weapons you can carry your spare ammo around for instand reloads. This mean you can fight for longer, but rearming is more of a hassle/not possible (ops etc).

Your guns are much closer to energy weapons in this regard. With your arbitrary limits on carrying magazines/ammo boxes to (rightfull) stop people from carry assloads of ammo around (which is the entire point of ballistic weapons), all you've done is make an energy weapon with it's totally fire capacity split across 2 items. You still have static location that you have to rearm at, and you still have a very limited amount of shots in the field.

In this regard, what is the difference between a ballistic with 2 mags (and 2 mags only) equalling 10 stuns vs a disabler with the same number of shots and stam damage? Nothing save that rechargers require power, while ammo boxes are immune to powersinks but run out.

2)
Energy weapons (except ion weapons) get draind by emp's.
Ballistic weapons don't.

This is consistant, but is a clear buff to sec and a clear nerf to antags that frequently rely on emp's to both silence and disarm sec.

3)
Energy stun weapons (taser/e-bow) have limited range.
Ballistic weapons (except for the wizardd ony gyrojet) do not.

You're suggesting putting a range limit onto your gun which is just plain inconsistant with all the other weapons, making it again, more in common with a taser then a ballistic.

4)
Electrodes (including the stun slug I believe) and disabler shots dont cause actual damage.
Ballistics all do, includin beanbag rounds and shotgun darts.

You have a hand gun that shoots bullets of pure stam damage, exactly like a disabler, and unlike other ballistics.

5)
Laser rounds can go through transparen objects.
Ballistics and electrodes cannot.

Consistant, and a minor nerf, considering disablers are shit.

6)
Energy weapons reflect off e-shields 100% of the time. (technically not true, you can still get through with shit like laser cannons and pulse rifles, but still very RNG)
Ballistics get blocked 50% of the time.

This is the only reason other then your own personal preference for ballistics that you've offered.
It's a (percieved) issue with the reflect ability of 2 niche items vs energy weapons. The logical decision here is to change this interaction in some way. Instead, you choose to effectively abandoning energy weapons, giving sec ballistics instead, then shrugging and saying you can code all the changes that will be needed to adjust for such a significant change.

You don't buy a new car because your old one popped a tyre.

Reserved

Will reply to this clusterfuck of a post after this meeting.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:33 pm #117977

You would however buy a new car if you had been driving the old car for years and wanted to try driving a slightly different car.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:37 pm #117979

Could we not devolve this thread into dissecting a figure of speech please and thank you

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:41 pm #117980

Then allow me to spell out what i mean.

These handguns look cool and i would like to use them over tasers for a while even though they are worse in some ways

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:47 pm #117998

whodaloo wrote:Could we not devolve this thread into dissecting a figure of speech please and thank you

You ain't from around here, are you boy?

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:01 pm #118003

Based on the preliminary forum data, 'OOC seemed generally positive about them' seems to be a complete cherrypicking of data. So far 276% more people think that it was a negative addition, than positive, and yet are you still going to push this thing through. Steelpoint, do you really want to become the coderbus demon that you've been trying to fight all this time?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:23 pm #118015

Wyzack wrote:Then allow me to spell out what i mean.

These handguns look cool and i would like to use them over tasers for a while even though they are worse in some ways

I feel they're very useful and much better than tasers in certain situations.

I would certainly like the choice between the two.

Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:15 pm

Steelpoint wrote:The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values - The hook of tasers, if you will. I'll just merge these two into one to be concise
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler - If you're meaning to leave hybrid tasers in as an option, then ALL of the stamina-damage related advantages below are null. Which basically eliminates all the pros of using the pistol except for reloadability, so I'll just assume you meant to give sec an option of regular taser or pistol and not hybrid taser or pistol to help your point out a bit.
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo - You already said it was rechargeable, please don't list the same point twice. Instead let's list this as "Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station"
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge - The downside of tasers. The counter-hook.
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords - As they were designed to be, those items are designed to counter security weaponry
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor at Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target - The other counter-hook, because tasers are strong and they need two

Steelpoint wrote: The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite

+ Reloadable In The Field - The hook of pistols
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due to Stamina Damage - Not new. Hybrid tasers and disablers already do this.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser - Please don't list the same point twice
+ Lethal Rounds Available - So are lasers, so this isn't an advantage the pistol has alone
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords - Unnecessary nerf to these items. This is a bad thing.
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets - This is actually too narrow, so I'll just replace it with "Slows Targets on First Hit", even though that's technically a repeat of "Does Stamina Damage" above, but whatever, I'll allow it
+ Immune to EMPs - Dunno why you didn't list this, but it's an unnecessary nerf to EMPs. This is a bad thing.
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun - The counter-hook of stamina damage
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage - A bit unfair to have this as a disadvantage since ignoring armor is the taser's special ability but considering we're directly comparing two weapons, alright
- Can't Shoot Through Windows - Neither can the regular taser
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite - Not something your average sec officer gives as shit about. Yes, it's a game balance thing we care about, but nobody's on the fence between the two and goes "oh, but if I pick the pistol I might run out of ammo in a long round. Better roll with the taser". However since they might get fucked by the armory not passing out more rounds, I'll go ahead and reword it as "Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo"

Which leaves us with:

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor at Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due to Stamina Damage
+ Slows Targets on First Hit
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Immune to EMPs
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage
- Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo

If we leave the choice as pistol vs hybrid taser, after cutting out duplicated stamina-damage related advantages, we wind up with:

The Hybrid Taser is...
+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field .
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Slows Targets on First Hit
+ Immune to EMPs
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo

Now here's the thing: In either case, I feel like the main schtick of the pistol is being reloadable. This absolutely could have been done with a special energy weapon that couldn't be recharged normally and instead needed power cells. Or even special power cells if you want, whatever. The nerfs to EMPs and eswords and shield is easily the part of this I most strongly dislike. Yes, it's not a big deal, but it's still bad.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:44 pm #118029

MisterPerson wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun
+ Instant Stun Irrespective Of Armour Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo
- Limited To Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable To Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor At Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target
+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values - The hook of tasers, if you will. I'll just merge these two into one to be concise
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler - If you're meaning to leave hybrid tasers in as an option, then ALL of the stamina-damage related advantages below are null. Which basically eliminates all the pros of using the pistol except for reloadability, so I'll just assume you meant to give sec an option of regular taser or pistol and not hybrid taser or pistol to help your point out a bit.
+ Effectively Unlimited Ammo - You already said it was rechargeable, please don't list the same point twice. Instead let's list this as "Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station"
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge - The downside of tasers. The counter-hook.
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords - As they were designed to be, those items are designed to counter security weaponry
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor at Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target - The other counter-hook, because tasers are strong and they need two

Steelpoint wrote: The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Quick To Reload And Rearm
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due To Stamina Damage.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser
+ Lethal Rounds Available
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets (Ops)
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armour Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite
+ Reloadable In The Field - The hook of pistols
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due to Stamina Damage - Not new. Hybrid tasers and disablers already do this.
+ Ok For Crowd Control, Better Than Taser - Please don't list the same point twice
+ Lethal Rounds Available - So are lasers, so this isn't an advantage the pistol has alone
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords - Unnecessary nerf to these items. This is a bad thing.
+ Can Slow Down High Value Targets - This is actually too narrow, so I'll just replace it with "Slows Targets on First Hit", even though that's technically a repeat of "Does Stamina Damage" above, but whatever, I'll allow it
+ Immune to EMPs - Dunno why you didn't list this, but it's an unnecessary nerf to EMPs. This is a bad thing.
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun - The counter-hook of stamina damage
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage - A bit unfair to have this as a disadvantage since ignoring armor is the taser's special ability but considering we're directly comparing two weapons, alright
- Can't Shoot Through Windows - Neither can the regular taser
- Uses Limited Ammo Pool, Not Infinite - Not something your average sec officer gives as shit about. Yes, it's a game balance thing we care about, but nobody's on the fence between the two and goes "oh, but if I pick the pistol I might run out of ammo in a long round. Better roll with the taser". However since they might get fucked by the armory not passing out more rounds, I'll go ahead and reword it as "Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo"

Which leaves us with:

The Taser is...
+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs
- Poor at Crowd Control, Only Good Against Single Target

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field
+ Can Surpress Multiple Individuals Due to Stamina Damage
+ Slows Targets on First Hit
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Immune to EMPs
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage
- Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo

If we leave the choice as pistol vs hybrid taser, after cutting out duplicated stamina-damage related advantages, we wind up with:

The Hybrid Taser is...
+ Instant Stun Irrespective of Armor Values
+ Rechargeable
+ Can Shoot Through Walls With Disabler
+ Can Get More Ammo Basically Anywhere on the Station
- Limited to Five Rounds Before Recharge
- Unable to Deal With Eshields/Eswords
- Can Be Disabled With EMPs

The Pistol is...
+ Reloadable In The Field .
+ Can Attack And Stun Targets With Shields/Swords
+ Slows Targets on First Hit
+ Immune to EMPs
- Two Shots Minimum To Stun
- Armor Mitigates Stun Damage
- Can't Shoot Through Windows
- Dependent on Armory to Get More Ammo

Now here's the thing: In either case, I feel like the main schtick of the pistol is being reloadable. This absolutely could have been done with a special energy weapon that couldn't be recharged normally and instead needed power cells. Or even special power cells if you want, whatever. The nerfs to EMPs and eswords and shield is easily the part of this I most strongly dislike. Yes, it's not a big deal, but it's still bad.

Okay so add the suggestion that standard security pins for the pistols temporarily break when hit by an EMP.

Eswords just let them have a block rate for ballistics.

Post by **TehSteveo** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:54 pm #118034

I really dislike the idea of changing security from energy based gear to ballistics. Mainly due to the fact as just one thing that kinda been a constant was Nanotrasen used mostly energy gear while the Syndicate preferred mostly ballistics. Obviously the other reasoning is the balance issues that arise due to balance being around that one constant with EMPs/ESword/Eshields. (Though I will admit I enjoyed getting one the pistols during rev...which I then printed out .45 ammo to where I had pretty fucking lethal nonstop weapon)

Now, that being said. I don't mind the idea of having the pistols in some shape or form; such as replacing the HoS laser with one the pistols, putting them in the armory in a case that is only opened during red alert, or cargo bay ordered.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:57 pm #118035

This thread should deal with Pistols, another thread will deal with the Auto Rifles.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:03 pm #118037

There is a supermajority against pistols even though you have watered down the poll with five choices.

It's not going to happen and if it does, it's because you ignored the player base for your own self serving designs.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:12 pm #118041

Tunder wrote:There is a supermajority against pistols even though you have watered down the poll with five choices.

It's not going to happen and if it does, it's because you ignored the player base for your own self serving designs.

25 out of the total server pop isn't a decent sample size. I'm making people more aware about it at the moment. Some people didn't know there was a vote and wanted to vote for yes and they're registering now.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:05 pm #118081

The draw about ballistics is you can change mags and reload mags in the field.

These gimmick guns can't do that - you've got 2 mags and fixed ammo crate things.
This is functionally the same as a energy weapon with a 20 shot capacity - you still have to go to the brig (which actually makes the ballistic hilariously more restrictive) to rearm, where as EVERY OTHER BALLISTIC normally obtainable you can print out more mags and more ammo to carry with you.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:00 pm #118098

lumipharon wrote:The draw about ballistics is you can change mags and reload mags in the field.

These gimmick guns can't do that - you've got 2 mags and fixed ammo crate things.
This is functionally the same as a energy weapon with a 20 shot capacity - you still have to go to the brig (which actually makes the ballistic hilariously more restrictive) to rearm, where as EVERY OTHER BALLISTIC normally obtainable you can print out more mags and more ammo to carry with you.

Okay so give security an ammo press that is pretty resource intensive.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:14 pm #118104

You can actually get a .45 blue box printed at the autolathe that stores 20 bullets. I assume lethal ones are available too. That's functionally the same as having two extra magazines since refilling one from the box should be instant.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:47 am #118127

The reason I placed these ammo restrictions on the pistol was due to people complaining that officers originally had to many magazines on offer, thus they could (try and) carry a lot of mags on them.

So I introduced some ammo restrictions.

I'll tell you all now that if I made ammo far more liberally available that people would be complaining about its prevalence and that I should nerf the amount of mags available.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:05 am #118132

Steelpoint wrote:The reason I placed these ammo restrictions on the pistol was due to people complaining that officers originally had to many magazines on offer, thus they could (try and) carry a lot of mags on them.

So I introduced some ammo restrictions.

I'll tell you all now that if I made ammo far more liberally available that people would be complaining about its prevalence and that I should nerf the amount of mags available.

Cynical faggots will find a reason to bitch about everything.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Noka · Post by **Noka** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:24 am #118134

Steelpoint wrote:I'll tell you all now that if I made ammo far more liberally available that people would be complaining about its prevalence and that I should nerf the amount of mags available.

Maybe that's because introducing easy-to-obtain ballistics only enables people to meta it up? People will always come up with ways to game the system and get themselves obscene benefits, from metric fucktons of ammo to (if that presents a problem) metric fucktons of guns.

If you choose to limit ammo, these questions appear:
1) Why is it hard to get ammunition?
2) What is the best way to ensure I'm well-equipped in a red alert situation?

The answer to 1) is simply that the meta means omg, people will hoard ammo if you don't!!! So okay, that's something. But there's no IC reason for this, unless you're about to tell me the stun bullets are blinged out in gold with diamond tips or something equally whacky. There's no way to produce these items (unless I'm completely misunderstanding what changes have been done to this PR); they're cargonia only, which falls victim to the same problem as most cargonia shit - which is to say, a good rev or cult in that area can ensure you never get that shit restocked past what you get.

Thus, the answer to 2) is to take pistol until you run out of ammo, then switch to something more powerful. Tasers have less sustainability over time, and take one shot only - so gitguds can feel proud at how they managed to take out 5 people. But most players will miss shots occasionally, but the stam damage from the pistol allows them to try things like a stam shot followed by chasedown/stunbatonning on fleeing suspects, if I'm understanding how stamina damage effects movement right.

There's all the lore stuff too, but I've talked it to death on your PR. As it is, though, this weapon is super snowflake and is, at its core, a reloadable taser, considering any fucker stupid enough to think a window is cover in game is going to end up with a taser in the face, or a flashbang if Sec's feeling particularly uppity.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:29 am #118135

I tried to make the pistols a SIDE GRADE to tasers, not a objective better weapon. Hence why I want to go with a voucher system to allow CHOICE for officers in picking a weapon.

If I gave pistols a shit ton of magazines then it would be just a blatant upgrade over the taser.

What the fuck is wrong with trying to balance the weapon to be in line with the default taser to a degree?

Is this a case of dammed if I do, dammed if I don't?

I find it amusing that people (usually the same three of four people) accuse me of being the reincarnation of the devil and that I have some grand plan of breaking the game, all I wanted to do was offer a cool alternative weapon for security officers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:31 am #118136

How about this then.

What if I just give Officers the choice of ALTERNATIVE TASER SKINS, so you can take a default taser skin or a pistol looking skin or Ausops sleek pistol skins.

Would that be fine?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:46 am #118139

God no that's fucking retarded.

Keep the damn PR with the voucher.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:47 am #118140

Steelpoint wrote:How about this then.

What if I just give Officers the choice of ALTERNATIVE TASER SKINS, so you can take a default taser skin or a pistol looking skin or Ausops sleek pistol skins.

Would that be fine?

...To what end?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:02 am #118142

Steelpoint wrote:The reason I placed these ammo restrictions on the pistol was due to people complaining that officers originally had to many magazines on offer, thus they could (try and) carry a lot of mags on them.

So I introduced some ammo restrictions.

I'll tell you all now that if I made ammo far more liberally available that people would be complaining about its prevalence and that I should nerf the amount of mags available.

That is literally my point. If it's like every other ballistic, it's far too easy to abuse via shitloads of ammo.
If you snowflake it to be more similar to a energy weapon (rearming and range limitations) then why even make it a ballistic, when it's only that in name?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:04 am #118143

Seems I can't win.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:16 am #118144

Steelpoint wrote:How about this then.

What if I just give Officers the choice of ALTERNATIVE TASER SKINS, so you can take a default taser skin or a pistol looking skin or Ausops sleek pistol skins.

Would that be fine?

So this is what it boils down to? really?

You went to this effort because you're a self serving gun fetishist and the gameplay comes secondary to you being able to hold something that looks like a real gun?

Gun nuts, everybody. They make all 2nd Amendment supporters look bad.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:18 am #118145

Steelpoint wrote:I tried to make the pistols a SIDE GRADE to tasers, not a objective better weapon.

This game is all about having the right tools for a job. Even if pistols and tasers are equally powerful overall, having the ability to choose between them is a huge buff in that you can select the better one for any given situation.

What did you think of Pistols during the one day trial?