ban people who draw/write porn about other players

[iamgoofball]

Bottom post of the previous page:

this is separate entirely from the other nsfw book/art discussion

we should ban people who write porn about other players in the community and upload it to our servers

it's incredibly fucking creepy to write pornography about random people you know and share it with their associates

it doesn't matter if it's of "their character" because this is ss13 and 9 times out of 10 the player character is just a stand-in for the actual player, and everyone knows that when you're referring to someone's static name character, you're referring to the person behind the static name character.

it's creepy as shit and should be banned regardless of whether we decide to purge the Lusty Xenomorph Maid from the library

[Capsandi]

Your points are invalid because I know Markdown.
Your ckey isn't your real name, right? I don't even care for library smut, you can get rid of it, but not because a player at some point will take major offense at ic behavior. Aren't these the excuses employed by clique servers when the one of the "in" crowd finds a naysayer playing in their power fantasy? Those are the crowds you attract when you allow these obsessions within the rules of the server.

Farquaar, this may appear to be an ad hominem argument, but I promise that it is not. Please look at this graph.
GRAPH NOISES
Would you be open to the possibility that your uncaring reaction to character-based smut is, in part, a result of your non-existant attachment to OCs? An OC static you never cared to create to play as frequently? This isn't a blame-game here. I don't know about your intentions. But I think that if you started caring about giving dept to a character of your creation to roleplay, you wouldn't feel so indifferent about fictional characters potentially being desecrated by scribbles in the library.

I suppose he would considering that he is denouncing having an attachment to OCs as behavior unfit for the server. Not sure what you expect, for him to play and act in a way he sees as detrimental to the server?

[Farquaar]

BIG TEXT MAKES MY POINT STRONGER

Most people aren't retarded enough to think that somebody is a coomer because a completely unrelated third party wrote smut about their fictional RP character.

[Rohen_Tahir]

BIG TEXT MAKES MY POINT STRONGER

Most people aren't retarded enough to think that somebody is a coomer because a completely unrelated third party wrote smut about their fictional RP character.

You can set a library book's author to anything you want, including someone else's character name/CKEY.

[Agux909]

Playing a variety of characters isn't indicative of shallow roleplay. Nice try though.

Never said that, just said you just don't care on mantaining a static/consistent character, which might be why you don't particularly relate to whoever does. Nobody can write or draw anything about your static if you don't have one, lol.

[Armhulen]

person does something to make you uncomfortable: admins are reasonably allowed to talk to the guy and work things out, generally everyone should just be chilling and not being creeped out

person does something to make you uncomfortable but it's now in a cross round database: admins should have no right to intervene

this makes no sense, obviously.

[Farquaar]

Are you seriously suggesting that every single smutbook about characters in SS13 is written with malicious intent? If so, you must be both an oracle and a mindreader.

This is not what I said and you know it. I specified countless times this was about books written without consent - how did you make this about *every* book? When did I ever say every book is wrong? Not even going to say anything about the last sentence - mocking and not even accurate to anything I've said.

Fine, you suggested that every single smutbook about SS13 characters without the express permission of the character's creator is written with malicious intent. You're still making the same assumptions about people's intent that you have no possible way of knowing at a glance.

We're not children. We're adults who are expected to tell the difference from fantasy and reality. Detaching yourself from your character is a basic requirement for good roleplay.

I can detach myself and still be uncomfortable at someone writing smut about them. I feel uncomfortable at the amount of porn of statics that has been drawn without their consent, and it's not even my character.

Would you be open to the possibility that your strong reaction to character-based smut is, in part, a result of your strong attachment to your OC?

No, it's because people doing sexual stuff that involves me in any way without asking me is fucking weird and boils my blood.

I don't know what else to tell you except to take the game less seriously. If your blood is boiling because somebody somewhere wrote a weird book in the SS13 library, you need to take a step back and realize that in the grand scheme of things, it means absolutely nothing for you or your life.

But I think that if you started creating new characters and exploring new avenues of roleplay, you wouldn't feel so strongly about a fictional character potentially being desecrated by scribbles in the library.

No. For the last time, this is about people being sexual about others without their consent. Of course it's going to bother me more if it's about my character - because I am on the receiving end of it.

You keep conflating people and fictional characters. If somebody wrote a smutbook about *you*, we both would agree that it's a bannable offence. But when it comes to fictional characters, they deserve no special protection. Either smut is okay, or it isn't.

You really need to stop trying to make this about statics and try to comprehend that this is a boundaries issue. If you really need to know - anything that involves sex and non-consent makes me sick and affects me on a personal level deeply. Please, please, for the last time, this is not, and has never been about your sonic fighting academy OC.
I am not the only person who has said that it's gross and I am fairly sure you will not be able to apply the same argument to everyone.

This issue is entirely about static characters. If implemented, this would be the first rule on the books that specifically gives people's OCs special protections. Again, if somebody writes a smutbook about a person, then I have zero issue with the book being deleted and the player being banned. But we're talking about a policy that explicitly protects the supposed sanctity of people's static characters. Frankly, I'd prefer smut be banned entirely than implement special character protections.

On a final note: Wubli, I respect you and I always enjoy seeing you in game. But don't give me this "please please please it makes me so upset" routine. We're adults. We can have a level-headed policy discussion without emoting over the subject matter.

[Farquaar]

Playing a variety of characters isn't indicative of shallow roleplay. Nice try though.

Never said that, just said you just don't care on mantaining a static/consistent character, which might be why you don't particularly relate to whoever does.

*Ahem*

But I think that if you started caring about giving dept to a character of your creation to roleplay, you wouldn't feel so indifferent about fictional characters potentially being desecrated by scribbles in the library.

Also

Nobody can write or draw anything about your static if you don't have one, lol.

Roscoe Boscoe. Yenyen Wu. Bozo Son of Bozo. Raymond Hooglehoff (though I haven't played him in ages). Go for it. Write as much porn about them as you want. Hell, feel free to boot up the game and play a couple rounds as old Ray-Ray. He's clean shaven with a blonde pompadour and a stubborn air of bravado. If you wanna play Yenyen, try conveying a sweet surface that conceals a mind stretched so taut that it'll snap the second the station goes to hell. Roscoe works hard at his job, but can be a xenophobic dick and will do anything for a quick buck. Play any of my characters, and enjoy the experience man. They're fictional characters and their feelings won't get hurt if they end up in somebody's library smutbook.

[bobbahbrown]

am i lost in the sauce here?

so the op is about banning erotic content about characters outright, is that correct?

im just confused as i see people arguing about different stuff all over i think

im assuming its existing policy but making erotic content about someone's character without asking them about it or worse doing it knowingly with them opposed is gross and those people should be punished, absolutely. i will admit that my character has had sarcastically erotic content written about them, and i thought it was funny, but just because i might find that ok in no way means that is applicable to others.

my question past there is that does this conflict with the OP in that consenting work would or wouldn't be permissible? that seemed to be asked on page 1 but i didn't fully grasp what the take was there.

not to confuse the pot further but i feel like its worth mentioning that while we try our best to maintain an 18+ environment on our servers, and quickly remove minors when they make themselves known, it is entirely possible the content these people are producing are (un)knowingly about minors and that makes it a whole lot worse in my opinion; though i suppose some people will make the argument of character != person, but in this context i really don't feel that makes a distinction here. to this extent consenting works don't really improve the situation.

edit: addendum: i kinda suppose re-reading my post above, especially line 4, the intent of the author could be taken into account (as something may be a sarcastic work for example) but im really not sure there as that is a bit too much to 'trust' i suppose; im not confident that is a metric we can maintain a nice environment by (but maybe i stand to be proven wrong!)

some brain thoughts,
bobbah 'bee' brown

[iamgoofball]

wubli is literally one of the only people in this thread with the correct take

[iamgoofball]

You keep conflating people and fictional characters. If somebody wrote a smutbook about *you*, we both would agree that it's a bannable offence. But when it comes to fictional characters, they deserve no special protection. Either smut is okay, or it isn't.

the player character is a stand-in for you, the player

[Jonathan Gupta]

Clearly you will simply not understand that this is about boundaries and sexual content and will continue to imply things I never said like this is about every single smut book written or that this is about characters.
Because I am very invested in this argument, it does not mean I am the only one who is saying this is gross and this is just me trying to get the server to cater to my tastes. It's someone writing about other people's character's getting fucked and not even daring to ask if it's okay to do that.
And really - this is about *sexual* content, which is, and has always been a sensitive topic. It's really beyond me how you fail to understand this isn't about just any thing. We won't get anywhere, at least you and I.

edit: I'd like to say I'm genuinely sorry if I sound rude. This just seems like total common sense to me - and I haven't really had anyone disagree but you. Normally I'd be inclined to take a step back and review my thoughts to make sure I'm being fair, but this is just a hard limit and I cannot say I regret anything I said or that i've changed my mind.

who is this stated to?

[imsxz]

person does something to make you uncomfortable: admins are reasonably allowed to talk to the guy and work things out, generally everyone should just be chilling and not being creeped out

person does something to make you uncomfortable but it's now in a cross round database: admins should have no right to intervene

this makes no sense, obviously.

just end the thread on this note honestly everyone is overcomplicating it

[Jonathan Gupta]

just end the thread on this note honestly everyone is overcomplicating it

Please, people going against each other makes me sad.

[Agux909]

This is getting kinda dense and there are points being missed/lack of comprehension. So I'll just drop it and say this:

If you write smut about someone's character without their consent and the owner of the character takes offense and reports it, you get fucking banned. Yes, bait and switch also works, so this already makes people think twice about doing it.

This still doesn't mean "BAN ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DRAW/WRITE PORN ABOUT OTHER PLAYERS" as the title of the thread says. Because that would imply having to do the thing no admin wants to do (I think), which is reading the entire library to ban every smut author in existence.

If this isn't the most sane way to tackle this issue then I don't know which is it honestly.

[Pandarsenic]

You really need to stop trying to make this about statics and try to comprehend that this is a boundaries issue. If you really need to know - anything that involves sex and non-consent makes me sick and affects me on a personal level deeply. Please, please, for the last time, this is not, and has never been about your sonic fighting academy OC.
I am not the only person who has said that it's gross and I am fairly sure you will not be able to apply the same argument to everyone.

This issue is entirely about static characters. If implemented, this would be the first rule on the books that specifically gives people's OCs special protections. Again, if somebody writes a smutbook about a person, then I have zero issue with the book being deleted and the player being banned. But we're talking about a policy that explicitly protects the supposed sanctity of people's static characters. Frankly, I'd prefer smut be banned entirely than implement special character protections.

On a final note: Wubli, I respect you and I always enjoy seeing you in game. But don't give me this "please please please it makes me so upset" routine. We're adults. We can have a level-headed policy discussion without emoting over the subject matter.

I can explain this a little further if you really don't understand, but Farquaar, please, don't be That Guy who makes rules like this necessary to codify. Do not be creepy. Do not state or imply that there is something wrong with anyone, Wubli or me or who the hell ever, not wanting their literary creation sexualized by randos. Do not make things capital-w Weird.

[Farquaar]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

It baffles me how some people can claim to champion empathy in one breath and casually throw these nasty little quips in the next.

I've said my piece. People can judge my words for themselves.

[Pandarsenic]

People can judge my words for themselves.

yeah dude that's why I'm begging you not to be creepy

Spoiler:

It's easy to be like "yeah I'd be fine with it" until one day you actually wake up to people going "Hey isn't this [character]" and sending you links to lewd shit of it that someone made and talking to people to try to figure out who the hell made it and why

At least the lewds made of my characters without my go-ahead were ironic memeshit, and the second time was by someone who was chill and we had an understanding of like "haha that would be funny," but it's really hard to describe how weird it is the first time that you log in and have to do a bunch of detective work to find out someone /r/ed your character and it happened. I still to this day don't know who actually was involved with it.

[Armhulen]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

It baffles me how some people can claim to champion empathy in one breath and casually throw these nasty little quips in the next.

I've said my piece. People can judge my words for themselves.

i mean right now if you're creepy in game to a static character admins can tell you to knock it off... are you saying that shouldn't be the case so books are protected?

[Screemonster]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

It baffles me how some people can claim to champion empathy in one breath and casually throw these nasty little quips in the next.

I've said my piece. People can judge my words for themselves.

why is your divine right to post creepy coomer shit about other people's stuff a hill you're willing to die on

edit: in fact why is your divine right to continue to do anything that requires you to specifically go out of your way to do to someone that they have informed you that they don't want you to do to them a hill you're willing to die on

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

Nobody called you "not a person". Getting pissy and trying to play the world's oldest "oh so I'M the bad guy" card doesn't help your case.
Writing *literal pornography* about someone who *does not consent* is WEIRD AS HELL and it's not the same sort of "lol ss13 has a weird appeal" as "a wizard can turn you into a xenomorph on a sci-fi research station"

if you purposefully write smut about someone without giving a damn what they think about it, it is malicious/there is absolutely a malicious attribution to that, it's way different than just normally writing smut about people who aren't player characters because there is someone who's played that character and acted how they've acted for oh-so-many rounds. When you interact with that character you interact with some part of that person, and writing smut about that character therefore has some attachment to that person, despite however much you think they are/they should be distinct from said character.


it's being a dick and it's being creepy as hell, please DO NOT DO THIS THANKS

[Fishimun]

Move the smut to wattpad , you don't have to submit it into the library.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

Nobody called you "not a person". Getting pissy and trying to play the world's oldest "oh so I'M the bad guy" card doesn't help your case.

I don't agree with Farquaar, but:

I fail to see why staticnames deserve to be protected in such a fashion. Either writing smut is okay, or it isn’t. Whether or not somebody’s snowflake OC is the subject of said smut shouldn’t be relevant.

the fact that you either don't understand why doing this is creepy and bad or do understand and are choosing to ignore it so you can soapbox about "Le CrIngE SanIc OCs exdee" makes you less than a person

[cSeal]

Do not be creepy.

Apparently my position on protections for static characters not only makes me less than a person, but a creep too. Got it. Better just rule 8 ban me right now.

Nobody called you "not a person". Getting pissy and trying to play the world's oldest "oh so I'M the bad guy" card doesn't help your case.

I don't agree with Farquaar, but:

I fail to see why staticnames deserve to be protected in such a fashion. Either writing smut is okay, or it isn’t. Whether or not somebody’s snowflake OC is the subject of said smut shouldn’t be relevant.

the fact that you either don't understand why doing this is creepy and bad or do understand and are choosing to ignore it so you can soapbox about "Le CrIngE SanIc OCs exdee" makes you less than a person

Obviously I was being hyperbolic here and I should've explained my point before jumping straight to the insults, but I stand by the core of what I said.

Farquaar has done nothing this entire thread but argue that somehow, banning shit that makes players uncomfortable that directly involves them will somehow lead to an increase in bad sportsmanship, bad rp, and snowball into static metaprotections or something. its a completely ridiculous take, he's refused to seriously consider anyone else's side, and it comes off as him raving about how much better he is because he wouldn't care if someone wrote a rape fic about his character. It's narcissistic, annoying, and inconsiderate, and frankly I have no issue telling him to eat shit

[Capsandi]

Seeing Farquaar getting mobbed for suggesting that, if seeing the name and hairstyle combo which makes up a 2d spacemans character in crude porn writings, which you need to go out of your way to find, has profound effect on your enjoyment of the game, it is indicative of an unhealthy obsession with what amounts to a name and 20 or so pixels, is worrying.
That forced random-name incident on Manuel a few months back should have been more worrying than I first thought.
Just APPLY ERP RULES TO THE LIBRARY, BAN ALL OF THE SMUT
why in the hell do we need to protect any of this shit, there's no excuse for it, TG doesn't NEED erp in the library to be TG, and TG sure as hell doesn't need rules to protect a pile of pixels and their names, because that is the scaffolding which attracts the mentally unstable. If rule 8 applies to in game characters, does that mean rule 11 does too?
To reiterate,
Just APPLY ERP RULES TO THE LIBRARY, BAN ALL OF THE SMUT, SMUT IS GROSS AND BAD, WE DONT NEED IT.

[chocolate_bickie]

Incorrect. You don't need to copyright your character for you to own it. It's your original character. It's simply yours because you say it is and play it. No one stops me from making an OC that looks and acts just like a videogame character or another artist's character. That does not mean they do not own their character. Legally - you don't, that is correct.

Copyright rules generally make exceptions for ''parody, caricature or pastiche'' that do not require the owners permission.

Are you seriously suggesting that every single smutbook about characters in SS13 is written with malicious intent? If so, you must be both an oracle and a mindreader.

This is not what I said and you know it. I specified countless times this was about books written without consent - how did you make this about *every* book? When did I ever say every book is wrong? Not even going to say anything about the last sentence - mocking and not even accurate to anything I've said.

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

My personal take;
18+ content is part of SS13, see WGW (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Woody%27s_Got_Wood) or the fact that homocide is part of every round. While Erotic Roleplay is not acceptable, books, unless read, are not forced into players and generally require seeking out. There is an argument to be made that any book that contains ERP and is not giving the 18+ Genre deserves to be deleted because you might accidentaly be forced to read one while looking for non 18+ content.

Back to original question though, about banning smut writers. Well, again WGW is part of TG culture. If an admin catches someone writing a smutty book they should have the right to delete them but unless the book is not labelled as 18+ it's kinda a victimless crime. And no, I don't consider your OC character a victim to something you don't have to read or be subjected to.

[cSeal]

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

no one is advocating for such a blanketed all encompassing rule, and there would be no reason to add one. Nuance is a thing that can exist

If an admin catches someone writing a smutty book they should have the right to delete them but unless the book is not labelled as 18+ it's kinda a victimless crime. And no, I don't consider your OC character a victim to something you don't have to read or be subjected to.

Not a single person is arguing that statics deserve protection like they're people, its about the player at the other end of the game being harassed because of their involvement in a book like this, or browsing through the library and finding a book about their static being sexually assaulted, or someone telling them over discord that someone wrote porn of their character. Some people, unsurprisingly and justifiably, find that fucking creepy, and there's no reason to let people continue to act creepily towards someone, especially in a way that's persistent round to round, just because its tucked away in the library.

My personal take;
18+ content is part of SS13, see WGW (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Woody%27s_Got_Wood) or the fact that homocide is part of every round.

again, nuance can exist in the rules, exceptions can be made, and culture can change. Erp used to be part of the culture, and then we banned it. It's just about where you draw the line in the sand.

[Screemonster]

Copyright rules generally make exceptions for ''parody, caricature or pastiche'' that do not require the owners permission.

just because something is technically legal doesn't prevent it from being a dickhead fucking move

[Screemonster]

My personal take;
18+ content is part of SS13, see WGW (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Woody%27s_Got_Wood) or the fact that homocide is part of every round. While Erotic Roleplay is not acceptable, books, unless read, are not forced into players and generally require seeking out. There is an argument to be made that any book that contains ERP and is not giving the 18+ Genre deserves to be deleted because you might accidentaly be forced to read one while looking for non 18+ content.

Back to original question though, about banning smut writers. Well, again WGW is part of TG culture. If an admin catches someone writing a smutty book they should have the right to delete them but unless the book is not labelled as 18+ it's kinda a victimless crime. And no, I don't consider your OC character a victim to something you don't have to read or be subjected to.

sex is part of real life too but if you make someone a subject of it without their consent you go to fucking prison

even the servers that allow ERP, TG included back when it was still allowed, permaban on the spot for involving other people in erotic shit without OOC consent

[cacogen]

Imagine sullying the /tg/station canon (with classics such as WGW and The Lusty Xenomorph Maid) by trying to get creepy books written about other people's characters without their consent the same sort of protection

[sinfulbliss]

The disconnect here, Farquaar, is you believe we should be so detached from our characters as to not care about non-consensual ERP books involving them.
If statics didn't exist you would probably be correct. No one is attached to their character because their character ceases to exist after a given round.
What you are missing is that people identify with the characters they build over time, and they become attached to them.
It isn't you, to be sure - but it is someone you identify with to a degree, and someone who you speak as/act as.
In my opinion it is you applied to the SS13 game universe, in whatever job or form you decide to take.
As a result sexually offensive books are not just an offense against the fake, online static, but are an offense to the player who is identifying as and taking on the identity of that static.

The degree of disconnect between the player and character you are espousing would remove all emotional involvement in the game and make nothing matter. Character exploding and dying is the same as character winning and eating a donut - if you have pure 100% detachment then you, the player, don't care either way. Clearly this is false even for you, who don't play a static. You must attach yourself to your character to play the game whatsoever, static or not.

Some degree of separation is needed, as wubli said. When you get punched, you don't feel it IRL. When you get murdered by an antag, you don't die IRL... So you care less about your character than you would if, say, someone wrote a smut book about you IRL. But you still care about them, to a degree. You still care when they're punched or murdered - just less so. And likewise you have a right to care when they're taken and made part of a non-consensual ERP book.

[Gigapuddi420]

The common sense way of going about this is that someone can ahelp if they take issue with a sexual portrayal of their character in a book. Admin can then delete the book and let the creator know why it was deleted. Not exactly a grand task for the admins part, is it, and apparently this is already the status quo sooo :shrug:

That being said I def agree with farquuar, ideally people should just stop being piss babies about this shit (saying this as someone who has tolerated a genuinely disgusting copypasta for years now). However we don’t exactly lose much by removing something which makes someone uncomfortable that is targeted towards them specifically. Just write an insulting story about someone if you want your licks i guess

Quoting wesoda for some nice page one simplicity for what is really not a very complicated issue. Personally I don't mind the idea of someone writing funny smut about any characters I played, but I think it's absurd to protect it all especially under the case where it's used for targeted harassment. Players should just ahelp any book about them they are uncomfortable with, admins then remove it and message the author to discourage re-uploads. Administrative actions against the author should only take place if they escalate beyond that, or the original text is somehow egregious enough it raises concern.

I'm fine with smut existing, I don't see why a player should tolerate harassment through another medium if they aren't 'in' on the joke. Not everyone can be cool enough to ignore that shit. Arguments about separation of player and character are a distraction, I don't see why it should be cool to write a rapefic about someones character with the intention to make the player uncomfortable, that's not a protection we should be affording and the basic courtesy for players to say "no that isn't okay" isn't hard to maintain.

[chocolate_bickie]

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

no one is advocating for such a blanketed all encompassing rule, and there would be no reason to add one. Nuance is a thing that can exist

Wubli was clearly stating that any unauthorized use of her OC was no okay. I felt like it was important to point out that parody work should be allowed even if some players find it offensive.

Not a single person is arguing that statics deserve protection like they're people, its about the player at the other end of the game being harassed because of their involvement in a book like this, or browsing through the library and finding a book about their static being sexually assaulted, or someone telling them over discord that someone wrote porn of their character. Some people, unsurprisingly and justifiably, find that fucking creepy, and there's no reason to let people continue to act creepily towards someone, especially in a way that's persistent round to round, just because its tucked away in the library.

The player (as in the person) is not being wrote about, their character is. You can't claim ''Not a single person is arguing that statics deserve protection like they're people'' and then state that the player is being harassed through their character being in a book, because they are mutually exclusive. If you claim your static name being erp'd in a book is ''harassment'' then yes, you are arguing that statics deserve protection.

I should clarify that I consider there to be a much larger degree of separation between ERP between two player characters and erp between two characters in a book. The reason is that PC erp requires one player to be subjected to something that they have no power to avoid. Book erp is something you can avoid completely. If someone is harassing you by reading passages, the issue is not with the book but with the player reading it. That is the harassment.

Furthermore, book characters aren't even PC characters. I mean look at all the fanfic of celebrities. Does celeb fanfic deserve to be deleted because it's 'harassment'? I'd wager no. Is it cringe? Sure.

My personal take;
18+ content is part of SS13, see WGW (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Woody%27s_Got_Wood) or the fact that homocide is part of every round.

again, nuance can exist in the rules, exceptions can be made, and culture can change. Erp used to be part of the culture, and then we banned it. It's just about where you draw the line in the sand.[/quote]

I don't draw then line where you do. I don't even consider PC characters and characters in books to be the same characters. I wasn't around for erp ban so I can't speak to it's merits. As for this, tongue in cheek humor like felinids grooming themselves or the captain taking a shower naked are all just part of TG culture and are important because they add a sense of humor to the game as well as excuses to meme on each other. Losing that just to protect OC's seems, sad. Not really worth it imo.

Copyright rules generally make exceptions for ''parody, caricature or pastiche'' that do not require the owners permission.

just because something is technically legal doesn't prevent it from being a dickhead fucking move

This is an emotive argument to my factual comment. I don't know what response your are expecting beyond, parodies are usually considered dicksish by someone otherwise you wouldn't have to parody them. In the end, if someone calls me a shithead in OOC, that's a dick move but I just learn to live with it.

sex is part of real life too but if you make someone a subject of it without their consent you go to fucking prison

even the servers that allow ERP, TG included back when it was still allowed, permaban on the spot for involving other people in erotic shit without OOC consent

Fair point. Writing rape stories might not be okay, but it involves neither real life rape or PC rape, it involves to copies of PC in a book in a library you don't have to see fucking. I mean, maybe non-consensual erp stories aren't okay? But you can't conflate rape stories with non-consensual use of characters. Two characters having a consenting relationship in a book is hardly rape.

[Gigapuddi420]

it's a safe bet to say most of the smut written about someone else's character exist to elicit a response from that player. After that's established the argument of character vs. player falls apart. If we're talking about making a sexy story about a character popular in ss13, outside of malice I see no reason why you couldn't just try to get their permission. It's clear some people will NOT want that kind of shit written about their character and again, if your intention isn't to upset them then why ignore those wishes?

[Agux909]

Players should just ahelp any book about them they are uncomfortable with, admins then remove it and message the author to discourage re-uploads. Administrative actions against the author should only take place if they escalate beyond that, or the original text is somehow egregious enough it raises concern.

I don't understand why it is so hard to agree on admins enforcing it this way. This is a perfect middle ground betweeen "remove all, ban everyone" and "ignore all, let everyone do as they please".

[Technoturnovers]

The whole "it's just your OC lololol argument" is just a distraction anyways- the actual player aside, that *character* should be perfectly justified in having a murderous rage at being smutted in the library, but since books are cross-round, they aren't allowed to retaliate against it in game because that is metagrudging. Thus, I suggest this remedy: any player who writes creepy smut about someone else opens them up to in-game violent retaliation so long as that book exists in the library, and also the database should show the ckeys of whoever wrote any book. If you feel so strongly about your right to draw creepy fanfiction about your coworkers on a billion-dollar corporate owned space station, then surely you won't mind backing up your beliefs with your own robustness, right?

[Stickymayhem]

The takes against this shit have generally been correct and throwing the idea that they're just over attached to their characters is pure bad faith

I give zero fucks about Jack Steiner but docking porn or rapefics about jack "murderboning" their way through the female static names on station were cringe five years ago and still cringe today.

What is the positive impact of maintaining this writing?

To add to the negatives, maybe one of the reasons we stagnate in a toxic puddle is all of this weird 4chan culture shit that's lingered purely due to tradition and a deliberate desire by a loud minority to keep the server as esoteric, unapproachable and bizarre as possible to stop any mainstream influence (or new blood) really joining and keeping the community alive.

[Pandarsenic]

Honestly I feel like this thread has taught me a lot about why 4chan and Reddit are full of "So then the DM had my character get raped" horror stories, why /tg/ doesn't have sex-changing surgeries, etc.

[iamgoofball]

why /tg/ doesn't have sex-changing surgeries

hi, im the person who removed it, we had to remove it because players were kidnapping other players and forcing them to do the surgery and then throwing them out into the halls and being super fucking weird about it because our players are horrible, horrible people

[Screemonster]

To add to the negatives, maybe one of the reasons we stagnate in a toxic puddle is all of this weird 4chan culture shit that's lingered purely due to tradition and a deliberate desire by a loud minority to keep the server as esoteric, unapproachable and bizarre as possible to stop any mainstream influence (or new blood) really joining and keeping the community alive.

and then you get people like bickie lawyering "HURF DURF THIS IS AN EMOTIVE ARGUMENT TO MY FACTUAL TAKE" like anyone should give a shit about his intellectual "right" to knowingly do things that upset others

fucking debatebros man

[Screemonster]

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

no one is advocating for such a blanketed all encompassing rule, and there would be no reason to add one. Nuance is a thing that can exist

Wubli was clearly stating that any unauthorized use of her OC was no okay. I felt like it was important to point out that parody work should be allowed even if some players find it offensive.

why should it be allowed

why is it important that people be allowed to specifically go out of their way to do something that someone has said they don't want done to them

[chocolate_bickie]

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

no one is advocating for such a blanketed all encompassing rule, and there would be no reason to add one. Nuance is a thing that can exist

Wubli was clearly stating that any unauthorized use of her OC was no okay. I felt like it was important to point out that parody work should be allowed even if some players find it offensive.

why should it be allowed

why is it important that people be allowed to specifically go out of their way to do something that someone has said they don't want done to them

Don't be a debatebro man just, like, accept what I said. Yur just, like, a toxin 4chan man who should just go back to plebbit.

You wanna start name calling so you can farm karma from sticky go ahead but don't expect me to talk back to you civily. Now I'm gonna double post like you keep doing.

EDIT: Also my emotive factual comment, all I meant was I can't tell you your feelings are wrong because they are your feelings. The comment about satire wasn't an attack on Wubli, I just wanted to point out that if you claim copyright as a reason to remove content, there are exceptions that apply to copyright

[chocolate_bickie]

If a ruling is made that you cannot write books about Player Characters without consent this rule will also apply to non-sexual books. For example if I write about Lepi Mewtera eating an apple and Naloac says I didn't have permission they can delete it.

no one is advocating for such a blanketed all encompassing rule, and there would be no reason to add one. Nuance is a thing that can exist

Wubli was clearly stating that any unauthorized use of her OC was no okay. I felt like it was important to point out that parody work should be allowed even if some players find it offensive.

why should it be allowed

why is it important that people be allowed to specifically go out of their way to do something that someone has said they don't want done to them

The only reason I brought up Satire laws was this policy discussion got derailed by Wubli and Farquaar talking about ''OC do not steal''. I was just pointing out that you can't claim copyright law as a reason to not allow certain content as it has exceptions. And all of this is irrelevant because this Policy discussion is about banning players who write smut.

I'm not even sure why we're talking about ''OC do not steal''.

As for your most recent quote;

why is it important that people be allowed to specifically go out of their way to do something that someone has said they don't want done to them

Nothing is being 'done' to Wubli. Nothing is being done to the PC of Wubli. The character in the book is not Wubli.

And all of this is irrelevant because any policy decision regarding smut shouldn't have an exception either way for OC PC's.

[legality]

Okay so if Narutos mangaka asked people not to write smut about the characters he makes and I write my extra smutty naruxkiba fox and the hound lemon I'm basically sexually assaulting and mind raping him

Jk anyone who believes that should get laughed at

Anyways it doesn't matter if it's a character Narutos mangaka made up or a character some random player made up for a spacemans rpg, I'll use other people's ideas however and whenever I want and if they have a problem with it I can just block them because this is the internet

[Armhulen]

Okay so if Narutos mangaka asked people not to write smut about the characters he makes and I write my extra smutty naruxkiba fox and the hound lemon I'm basically sexually assaulting and mind raping him

Jk anyone who believes that should get laughed at

Anyways it doesn't matter if it's a character Narutos mangaka made up or a character some random player made up for a spacemans rpg, I'll use other people's ideas however and whenever I want and if they have a problem with it I can just block them because this is the internet

Holy shit what a post, what a completely delusional post, entirely off the deep end. The fact that you think our current ERP rules or even just rules on not creeping people out is equivalent to mind rape is laughable. TO BE CLEAR: All your smut has to be for admins to talk to you about it is CREEPY. Writing characters of people you know into your porn is almost INHERENTLY creepy to many people playing the game. Eventually this poster will admit that their actual thoughts align with creepiness not being a good community rule and he should be allowed to make as many players for our role playing game uncomfortable as they want, like the fat greasy disgusting DM in a DnD game that writes weird garbage into the tabletop game and shouts "DON'T KINKSHAME MEEEEE"

And I know this comes off as hostile but when half of their post is a strawman that directly insults people in the thread and the second half is delusional "erm i'll block them" nonsense that doesn't matter at all because we're discussing admin policy... how is anyone expected to show this post respect?

[Shaps-cloud]

Are you saying you're the victim here

[TheFinalPotato]

Okay so if Narutos mangaka asked people not to write smut about the characters he makes and I write my extra smutty naruxkiba fox and the hound lemon I'm basically sexually assaulting and mind raping him

Jk anyone who believes that should get laughed at

Anyways it doesn't matter if it's a character Narutos mangaka made up or a character some random player made up for a spacemans rpg, I'll use other people's ideas however and whenever I want and if they have a problem with it I can just block them because this is the internet

This is the worst possible take

[iamgoofball]

Okay so if Narutos mangaka asked people not to write smut about the characters he makes and I write my extra smutty naruxkiba fox and the hound lemon I'm basically sexually assaulting and mind raping him

Jk anyone who believes that should get laughed at

Anyways it doesn't matter if it's a character Narutos mangaka made up or a character some random player made up for a spacemans rpg, I'll use other people's ideas however and whenever I want and if they have a problem with it I can just block them because this is the internet

touch grass

[Cobby]

It’s a role playing sandbox game even if you aren’t self inserting there’s nothing wrong with having an attachment to your character? I don’t random name exactly for this reason but I do switch around between 2 characters since people know one more/less than the other.

I’m not goIng to put much more effort into this topic and it’s variations but trying to shoehorn sex into a game where, again, the rules (and by extension the community at this point) are pretty clear about not wanting to include sex, is super weird. The only humor present in writing a smut book is the shock value of characters having kinky sex in a world where sex is otherwise disallowed. It’s why people also post other cringe related sex stuff in the library like beastiality and pedo works.

Imagine going to a D&D game where it’s presented that no erotic content is permitted but then you have a character that writes really racy books about his companions “as a joke”. When asked to not do it in the future, you retort, “It’s not YOU who is having sex it’s your characters, stop having such an attachment to them” and “It’s not like I read them out loud (although goblins might and I certainly can’t be held responsible), you have to ask me to read them so it shouldn’t be a problem since you’re opting in!”. If you don’t think the people around that table might find it weird you simply don’t know how to read the room. If you are going to say “well I would only play with people who would find it funny like me” realize you don’t have that “luxury” when joining a public server that can house say 50+ random people with all different backgrounds at a given time, so respect that especially when it’s you who is dancing around the erotic content rule and not them.

[oranges]

you can count on one hand the number of people submitting ERP books, they are likely deeply deeply mentally damaged.

Making them disappear will make this entire debate irrelevant.

[Screemonster]

you can count on one hand the number of people submitting ERP books, they are likely deeply deeply mentally damaged.

Making them disappear will make this entire debate irrelevant.

nooo noooooooooooooooooo but it's a slippery slope to not being allowed to explicitly go out of my way to do other things that other people would rather I not do to them noooooooooo

(see: every other policy discussion that boils down to "should we really have to put up with this thing" vs "deal with it")

[Jimmius]

This is covered by the ruling made here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=29218

To address the overall idea of Rule 8, we believe that the adult section in the library to be a unique exception to the rule with the understanding that the reason for the exception is due to the shitposting/funny nature of the smut.

Now on to the rule changes,
Non-consensual adult books are deleteable and the author can be banned for it per rule 8.

Any form of smut should be under the Adult section of the library, if its anywhere else it is deleteable, though a single incident of this is not a reason to ban anyone unless the book is violating some other rule.

Attempting to circumvent Rule 8 in anyway via books is bannable and should be handled on a case by case basis. We don't see this as something which is particularly common.
Though we do expect administrators to use common sense keeping in mind that, "...the reason for the exception is due to the shitposting/funny nature of the smut."
When there's two players sitting side by side writing detailed smut about each other for 30 minutes to step in and say, "Alright lads, now you're just ERPing by proxy." and ban them per rule 8.

Additionally we saw a few other points brought up during the discussion which are really already covered under the rules but we feel its important to state again:
Any form of harassment against a particular player due to a book is banable, any smut book featuring underage characters is deleteable and the author banable per rule 8.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, I think the adult section of the library is pretty funny and a cool lil outlet for dumb shenanigans. I can see the need for some more moderation of it, but I think outright deletion of it is going too far.
Jimmius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.